Bye, Bye for now Apple, it has been fun!

[turbineseaplane]

I think I have a love/hate relationship with computers and computer tech.

I've kind of gotten there myself, as the companies are only "kind of" making the products for us anymore

Mostly we've become either "the product" (AD revenue) or just a credit card they all want on auto-payment each month

"Making great products" is way down the list (if it's on there at all)

 

[rin67630]

I find Windows way to clunky and unreliable.

How can you explain that this "clunky and unreliable" OS is the standard in business?
Are all IT departments stupid?

 

[burgman]

I would say 16gb is really baseline ram any laptop should have since our phones and tablets have 8-12gb standard these days and some up to 24gb!

8gb is like 4gb used to be. You can get by but do anything intensive for any longer period of time and it is going to be a bottleneck.

On a entry level computer starting at $1000 I think at least 12gb should be standard.

16gb really should be but 12gb is a decent compromise. Specially with Apple silicon sharing the ram with the GPU. It would make the entry models last a lot longer. And this is NOT just an Apple thing. A lot of Windows OEMs still sell 8gb configurations at high prices (Surface laptop, and a couple others) but most are starting at 16gb ram now.

So there really is no logical excuse or reason other than forcing an expensive up charge and selling a lower cost product knowing it is handicapped and force people to buy another entry laptop in a few years.

You answered your own question with this;”You can get by but do anything intensive for any longer period of time and it is going to be a bottleneck” buy the right tool for the job. Stop talking down to the millions of users with 8gb memory and could care less, with the smug there’s obviously something wrong with you. Apple has data you have opinions

 

[JustinePaula]

A laptop should be like a kitchen, it has been designed for a certain number of appliances, but how much better would the kitchen be if you could add a few more appliances? You want to be able to buy that expensive coffee steamer thing, but there is no power or counter space.. If only they had built the kitchen with a couple of linear feet of space, maybe an extra outlet. Frustrating to have to want something and not be able to use it...

 

[Technerd108]

You answered your own question with this;”You can get by but do anything intensive for any longer period of time and it is going to be a bottleneck” buy the right tool for the job and stop talking down to the millions of users with 8gb memory and could care less, there’s obviously something wrong with you. Apple has data you have opinions

It was never the point of this thread but okay.

Sometimes data is wrong and common sense is right?

 

[turbineseaplane]

buy the right tool for the job and stop talking down to the millions of users with 8gb memory and could care less, there’s obviously something wrong with you. Apple has data you have opinions

Did you actually read what you just typed?
My goodness that is rude

 

[turbineseaplane]

I have to be honest…we really could use some class and civility on the forum.. and a little bit more listening, and a little less talking sometimes.

In a wide range of threads, people are just dismissive and rude, and they aren’t reading what other people are writing or they are totally uninformed on a topic and just blasting off and screaming at other people with totally wrong information… or sometimes it’s even just an opinion that is so strong it doesn’t even consider the potential, nor show respect, for differing opinions

This is a frustrating time on the Internet

This needs to get better

 

[NewOldStock]

I have to be honest…we really could use some class and civility on the forum.. and a little bit more listening, and a little less talking sometimes.

In a wide range of threads, people are just dismissive and rude, and they aren’t reading what other people are writing or they are totally uninformed on a topic and just blasting off and screaming at other people with totally wrong information… or sometimes it’s even just an opinion that is so strong it doesn’t even consider the potential, nor show respect, for differing opinions

This is a frustrating time on the Internet

This needs to get better

This above well is said.
Too much whining turning into a complaint department website and no one cares to tell apple directly.
If you have nothing good to say just listen or read you learn more.
Apple engineers and software devs could careless about this site as well.
If they do they get a good laugh I am sure.
This is not a place for the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

[Regulus67]

Back in the days, when I was using Windows XP Pro x64 and 7 Pro. And I had more than enough RAM, I made sure there was no SWAP file allocation. Or set to a specific size, to avoid dynamic allocation. Of course, in those days I had spinning HDs. As using that had a huge impact on speed, compared to the RAM speed.

Today, Apple is using proprietary SSDs, with high read/write speeds. So that greatly reduces the impact of using them for SWAP file allocation. I still believe it is better to have enough RAM to minimize, or even avoid the swapping.

If Apple SSDs are not impacted by a lot of read/write cycles in a meaningful way. My concern is obviously no longer valid.
The same goes for high speed SSDs that are used in PCs.

In a PC it is still easy to add some extra RAM, and I would have taken that option. Just as I have with my Mac Pro 7.1

 

[mielie]

If you are going to try and defend your actions and say it was just a joke let me ask this? Do you think it is funny in a nice way or in a sarcastic FU kind of way?

When was the last time you used Windows as a primary OS and laptop/desktop?

Seems your idea of unstable is pretty old and clunky how?
I have not had a stability issue with Windows in a decade. It is actually more reliable than MacOS.

What forms of Linux were you interested in and why? Why is Linux OS better than Windows objectively speaking? Linux is a great OS but it lacks hardware and software compatibility with peripheral's and other business related systems in terms of software. There is a lot of software available to MacOS and Windows that is not available on Linux. Linux can have basic hardware compatibility issues with graphics and other basic drivers on a Windows laptop not made specifically for Linux.

Someone vested in the Mac and Apple ecosystem where configuration is mostly done for you and all things work together would be a nightmare in Linux. At least with Windows you could replicate an ecosystem and all your devices. Maybe Ubuntu now has a feature where your Android phone is connected like Apple and Microsoft then my point would be moot. But even then it would not be as seamless and feature rich as what you are used to.

Windows and Microsoft have made a lot of mistakes over the years and currently the subscription model of Windows sucks but the OS has improved a lot over the years. I have my gripes about the control panel and settings being in different places and the legacy prompts seemingly carried over from the DOS years but you have sudo prompts in MacOS that work much like Linux and have a text UI instead of GUI Apple is so famous for. All of the GUI is running by text code so if you want to run a command using a text prompt like sudo or command promt are way faster than any GUI. So I don't mind those older interfaces but they should be organized in one place instead of all over the UI in various places buried under sub menus. But Windows is mostly intuitive and fast. It gets out of my way and lets me do the task at hand where there is more hand holding to get where you need to go and restrictions that seem arbitrary in MacOS. The main weaknesses of Windows used to be security and stability. Anyone remember Windows ME, right before Windows 2000? Yeah, I do, I was one of the unlucky ones when the system would just freeze in the middle of what you were doing. If you had been doing work for some time it would just be gone. Tons of viruses and malware. It was so bad that is what peaked my interest in Linux. From that point on I was hooked but it was a very difficult road back then when nothing worked and getting xorg to configure with your laptop screen was a miricle or getting wifi to work. But over time Linux and Windows have greatly improved. It has been a roller coaster but I give Microsoft credit for going touch in Windows 8. Having a full Windows install on a tablet was fricken amazing back then and still is now. Windows took some risks and didn't take others where it should have but at least they have tried. With Apple I feel they were innovative with their hardware back when the first iPhone and iPad were introduced they had so much potential and Steve told us iPad would replace our laptops in time but that never happened and now we don't have anything truly innovative from Apple in a while. iPod anyone? Back in the day to have your entire music library in your pocket was a game changer. Now we have iPhone with Titanium. We have VR glasses no one wants. We have crazy expensive iPad Pro with tons of power and crazy expensive accessories to turn them into laptop replacements yet the OS is gimped so they can never truly use all the power of their tablets.

ChromeOS is more useful with a full desktop version of Chrome than an iPad Pro with iPadOS and that is embarressing.

I have a Windows machine that I run side by side with several Macs for work. Been using Mac and Windows for over 30 years now. I guess it depends on what you want to do with your computer, if you need high performance AAA games then there still is no substitute for Windows but I’m guessing as you’ve been using Mac that is not the case.

We have customers using Windows which is why I maintain a windows machine. Since Apple Silicon I’ve found it easier to have an actual hardware version of a Windows machine rather than rely on VM’s. Using Windows and Mac side by side every day for work over the last few years has only confirmed my opinion that Windows is not as reliable and secure as Mac, but that’s just my experience I guess. I still do 90% of my daily work on my Mac as I find it easier, I have less crashes, less application freezes, and personally feel the UI is more responsive.

It probably helps me that my company pays for everything so I don’t experience the issues you mentioned about paying lots for RAM, needing subscriptions to make additional features works, etc.

I’m not actually having a go at you but you are taking everything personally and getting upset so, again, good luck.

 

[Technerd108]

I have a Windows machine that I run side by side with several Macs for work. Been using Mac and Windows for over 30 years now. I guess it depends on what you want to do with your computer, if you need high performance AAA games then there still is no substitute for Windows but I’m guessing as you’ve been using Mac that is not the case.

We have customers using Windows which is why I maintain a windows machine. Since Apple Silicon I’ve found it easier to have an actual hardware version of a Windows machine rather than rely on VM’s. Using Windows and Mac side by side every day for work over the last few years has only confirmed my opinion that Windows is not as reliable and secure as Mac, but that’s just my experience I guess. I still do 90% of my daily work on my Mac as I find it easier, I have less crashes, less application freezes, and personally feel the UI is more responsive.

It probably helps me that my company pays for everything so I don’t experience the issues you mentioned about paying lots for RAM, needing subscriptions to make additional features works, etc.

I’m not actually having a go at you but you are taking everything personally and getting upset so, again, good luck.

Calling you out is not taking things personally. There is a difference and you continued to respond.

I really doubt your statements but let's agree to disagree and good luck to you as well!

 

[mielie]

How can you explain that this "clunky and unreliable" OS is the standard in business?
Are all IT departments stupid?

Mostly because it is cheap and ubiquitous.

 

[Queen6]

You answered your own question with this;”You can get by but do anything intensive for any longer period of time and it is going to be a bottleneck” buy the right tool for the job and stop talking down to the millions of users with 8gb memory and could care less, there’s obviously something wrong with you. Apple has data you have opinions

It's getting beyond tedious. Only things that will make Apple move on increasing the base model's RAM is;

• A severe & prolonged downturn of sales in comparison to competing systems that's linked to RAM spec
• User data indicating memory pressure is frequently maxed in basic usage
• Significant user dissatisfaction directly brought to Apple's attention, coupled with supporting data (Apple)
• Apple's reputation being tarnished repeatedly & uniformly by the tech-press

I generally purchase two classes of notebook 16"-17" & 12"-14" the former being a desktop replacement, the latter being highly portable with longest possible battery runtime. Frequently over the years I've opted for the base model Mac's as they are unbeatable off the mains and offer very solid performance.

Those Mac's and the current M1 MBP have never been a problem even with heavy workloads. Yes same as any computer they can slow if overloaded. Safe to say they did a lot more than just surf the web and check email's that's for sure as they were utilised in engineering roles...

Am I against Apple raising the base models RAM? no. I am against Apple's monopolistic pricing of RAM & storage as that's exactly what it is. I also dont like that users are not able to uninstall Apple's built in apps that they have no use for.

If you need to use a Mac and you need more than 8GB there are numerous options available. If it's part of your revenue stream you should be building that cost in, if not...

If the base models 8GB limit is such a big issue to you all out there, complain directly to Apple, send an email to Tim Cook, go to your local Apple store and ask to speak with the manager as even that is likely to be far more meaningful than posting over & over about it here...

Q-6

 

[jakey rolling]

A laptop should be like a kitchen, it has been designed for a certain number of appliances, but how much better would the kitchen be if you could add a few more appliances? You want to be able to buy that expensive coffee steamer thing, but there is no power or counter space.. If only they had built the kitchen with a couple of linear feet of space, maybe an extra outlet. Frustrating to have to want something and not be able to use it...

Especially when that couple of linear feet of space would have cost almost nothing to the builder or architect to add, but was just left out because they wanted to be dickish to the homeowner.

 

[jakey rolling]

Mostly because it is cheap and ubiquitous.

And because most specialized business software runs on Windows.
And because device management works far better on Windows.
And because business-level warranties and support plans exist in the Windows world.
And because it has been a myth for at least 15 years that MacOS is more secure or stable than Windows.

 

[gold333]

Why would you have Apple OR Windows?

I have a MBP, iPhone and iPad and Apple watch for daily tasks and a high end Windows Pc for gaming and running a 3D projector for 3D movies.

Why limit yourself?

But file management is HELL on MacOS, I’ll give you that. Then again window management is HELL on Windows.

 

[jakey rolling]

But file management is HELL on MacOS, I’ll give you that. Then again window management is HELL on Windows.

Window management is pretty famously better on Windows than MacOS.

 

[gold333]

Window management is pretty famously better on Windows than MacOS.

Why?

Windows 10/11 only has Task view, Return to Desktop and Windows Snap. All requiring actual clicks (apart from Windows Snap).

MacOS has Mission Control/Expose, App View, Task View, Desktop Peek. And with BTT you can even drag windows to maximize or stick them to a corner. All WITHOUT requiring a click (just drag to hot corners).


Safari has open tabs thumbnail layout going as far back as Catalina. Windows Google Chrome STILL doesn’t have a thumbnail browser of your open tabs

 

[rin67630]

Mostly because it is cheap and ubiquitous.

So you think Companies would chose an unreliable OS because it is cheap?
Just to the opposite: they chose it because it works reliably and protects their IT investments.

Why?

Windows 10/11 only has Task view, Return to Desktop and Windows Snap. All requiring actual clicks (apart from Windows Snap).

MacOS has Mission Control/Expose, App View, Task View, Desktop Peek. And with BTT you can even drag windows to maximize or stick them to a corner. All WITHOUT requiring a click (just drag to hot corners).

I see, you have not used Windows for a very long time... You just have no clue.

 

[datagov63]

I was a Windows user since Windows 1.0, then switched to Ubuntu in 2007 after Microsoft made it so hard to restore their OS after a virus infection wiped my XP drive. I was on Linux until 2021, with desktops and laptops. Great OS with sub-par apps for photography and video. Apple is expensive, but their gadgets are well made, efficient, and quiet. They use less electricity and RAM than Windows and Linux PC's and the software is generally of high quality. I often think about returning to Linux but then I would have to build a PC from scratch again and it would never be as small, elegant, and efficient as a Mac mini, studio, or laptop. A thunderbolt ssd enclosure immediately solves storage problems at market prices. For me, life is too short to be building PCs, working with Microsoft, and surrendering all my data to Google. YMMV.

 

[mielie]

And because most specialized business software runs on Windows.
And because device management works far better on Windows.
And because business-level warranties and support plans exist in the Windows world.
And because it has been a myth for at least 15 years that MacOS is more secure or stable than Windows.

There is a reason Windows market share is in decline and the likes of Linux and Mac are on the up.

The vast majority of businesses don't use 'specialised business software', they use ordinary office productivity applications that are available on Mac (e.g. Microsoft Office). What is also driving significant change is the move to web based / SaaS tooling. This change isn't always retrospective so legacy applications continue to be a requirement for some businesses and that often drives their choice of Operating System, however, as new products come to the market they are increasingly cross platform either by virtue of using a cross platform development framework such as Qt or because they are web based.

The last 2 companies I have worked for, one was 100% Apple (and they have perfectly adequate MdM solutions for Mac that seem to work just as well as Windows from my limited experience) and the other was almost exclusively Windows but is moving to Mac (albeit not giving up Windows but rather moving to a system where they have both Windows and Mac computer users, this is to support software engineering teams as well as the business side of the company).

It is also not a myth that MacOS is more stable and secure than Windows, it is an actual reality. That is in part down to the underlying technology, it is also about the level of control Apple have over their products (they control hardware and software whereas there are many different companies building hardware for Windows and Microsoft needs to ensure Windows operates on everything as a result), and its also down to the fact Windows has had such a large user base and is a more attractive target for people who want to penetrate systems and deploy malware. As Mac use increases, it is only logical that we will see more attacks targeting it, so Apple should not be resting on its laurels.

As for business level warranties and support plans I could literally point you to a dozen companies offering this as a service for Mac and business, just do a Google search.

 

[rin67630]

I often think about returning to Linux but then I would have to build a PC from scratch again and it would never be as small, elegant, and efficient as a Mac mini, studio, or laptop.

What prevents you to run Linux on Apple's Intel devices?

 

[datagov63]

What prevents you to run Linux on Apple's Intel devices?

Exactly. I have done that with parallels and virtual box and it's great when I feel nostalgic.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

To summarize your post (referring to the OP):

You strongly prefer Apple's hardware, except for the lack of a touch screen on the laptop, and moderately prefer its OS, but don't like the cost.

If you're willing to give up touch on the laptop, there's a simple solution: Buy the last generation when the next one comes out. Then you get deals like this. Even though it's an M2, this is probably a nicer laptop than anything you can get fror $1300 in a current-gen PC:

View attachment 2360151
E.g., compare that to this discounted Dell XPS Plus which, at its "best-price-of-the-year" ($500 off) also goes for $1300. Its SC and MC performance are a bit weaker than the M2's when corded, and much weaker on battery. And, even corded, its GPU is only half as strong. Plus it has much worse battery life, is much noisier, and has less RAM. One the plus side, it appears to have a nicer screen (4k OLED touch):

View attachment 2360161

So you managed to find the one scenario where a macbook pro 13" is priced somewhat reasonably, but completely refuse to acknowledge my situation in real life (here it is again from page 4):

Okay, so let's take an example. I had to replace my PC with a Ryzen 5 5600X and RTX 3060TI - gave it to my daughter. So I looked at various Macs and PCs. Either way I need a PC to game. So there is that. Either way, I can't connect to my work environment due to smart card restrictions that won't work on an ARM based Mac (so all the M1s and beyond won't work).
I find an Acer Predator Helios Neo 16" with an i7-13700HX and RTX 4060 with 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD for $999 and two year warranty included (refurbed from Acer). I live in flyover country in the US - No nearby Apple store anyway. I add 16GB of RAM and 1TB as a second SSD for around $100 (because I can easily add it). So now I have 32GB RAM and 2TB SSDs and 2 year warranty for $1100. The 16 inch 2560x1600 16:10 screen gets to 500 Nits. It is choice.
Now, I can't even get a refurbed M1 Macbook Pro 16" M2 or M3 with 2TB SSD and 32GB RAM. So, a 12 core CPU, 18 core GPU with 36GB RAM and 2TB SSD is $3,499 + the cost of Applecare.

Yes, that is $3,499 + Applecare vs. $1099!!!!

 

[lcseds]

Stability on MacOS is expected since hardware is locked down. Stability is expected on Windows which is a monumental task given the dizzying array of hardware choices. MS has been doing a great job at this for a long time. In the Windows world (especially corporate), you're not forced to pay for options you don't want or need. $200 8Gb memory upgrades and $200 Small SSD increases don't cut it either. Because of the hardware variety, you get what you want. If Dell had the butterfly keyboard fiasco, then you can transition to Lenovo or HP. Dell would change that quickly because of lost sales. With Apple, you will wait until they are damn good and ready to address it. Because people keep buying the stuff and paying whatever Apple wants.

They both have their place, and the debate will never, ever end. Nothing wrong with a good debate as long as it's civil. And I started with DOS 3.0, had a 10mb hard drive, yadda yadda. I supported both platforms as an IT Manager at a large University. Both can provide decent headaches. But true migraines come from the users, not the hardware or OS.

I have a MBP 16 M1, a LG Gram 17, an iPad Pro, iPhone 15 pro max, a Lenovo Legion 7i desktop and just finished building a new i7 desktop for Flight Simulator. So I play on both sides of the court without much trouble. I have no more issues with Windows than I do with the Mac. I'm now looking at the Samsung Book4 Ultra and waiting on the Lenovo Slim 9i with the Intel Ultra inside. It's all good for me.