Bye, Bye for now Apple, it has been fun!

[theorist9]

You keep repeating "aftermarket." The consumer can always purchase entirely new RAM chips.

Yes, because it's a known term of art. "Aftermarket" simply means parts not sourced from the maker of the product into which you are installing them. It has nothing to do with new or used. For instance, my iMac's RAM could be upgraded by puchasing either Apple-branded ("OEM") RAM chips from Apple, or aftermarket RAM chips from a variety of brands, including Kingston, Samsung, Crucial, Hynix, etc. Apple doesn't make its own RAM chips, so these aftermarket chips could in some cases be the same parts available directly from Apple.​

​

You can buy new or used Apple-branded RAM, as well as new or used aftermarket RAM. Back when Macs could be upgraded, people who needed more than the base RAM would often buy the machine with the minimum RAM amount, and then upgrade it with new aftermarket RAM.​

​

The term is also commonly used with cars. If your Honda needs repairs, you can demand OEM Honda parts (i.e., parts sourced directly from Honda;even if Honda doesn't make the parts themselves, they are Honda-branded and must pass Honda's internal requirements; they are supposed to be identical to the part they are replacing). If not, your insurance company might source new aftermarket parts that are typically cheaper and may not be made to the same specs. With RAM that that's not as much of an issue.​

​

Here's a 22-page thread (>500 posts) about upgrading the RAM on the 2020 iMac using aftermarket (i.e., non-Apple-branded) RAM:​

Memory upgrade troubleshooting in 2020 27-inch iMacs

Hi all! First post on this site. I received my 2020 27" iMac (tier 3 stock configuration) yesterday and have been using it happily since. Today I received some Crucial memory (CT2K8G4S266M aka 2 sticks of 8GB 2666) and I installed it in the two slots that were occupied by the Apple memory, which...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[chmania]

Yes, because it's a known term of art. "Aftermarket" simply means parts not sourced from the maker of the product..​

You can't replace or upgrade the RAM in M chip Macs, and that's the crux of the matter, which won't be resolved in any way other than forking out more cash to buy another Mac. This issue will persist for the buyer, whether they like it or not, or whether they choose to defend the company. There are plenty of PCs available where you can swap out the RAM and storage.

 

[mi7chy]

It wouldn't be 'aftermarket' since Apple didn't make the original RAM to begin with since it's made by Hynix, Samsung or Micron which are the original RAM manufacturers and Apple 'relabeled' or 'rebranded' RAM when referring to RAM that came with an Apple device.

 

[theorist9]

You can't replace or upgrade the RAM in M chip Macs, and that's the crux of the matter, which won't be resolved in any way other than forking out more cash to buy another Mac. This issue will persist for the buyer, whether they like it or not, or whether they choose to defend the company. There are plenty of PCs available where you can swap out the RAM and storage.

Your response indicates that you continue to fail to understand what I've written.

You're writing as if I've disagreed with what you just wrote. I don't. If you did the work to actually understand my posts before spouting off about them, you would know that.

Instead, I was commenting on a the effect of non-upgradeabilty on a different part of the buying cycle. You're talking about the inability to upgrade an older M-series Mac to extend its life. That's true, but that's not what I was focusing on in this later interchange, which is the inability to upgrade a new M-series Mac with aftermarket RAM at the time of purchase.

 

[theorist9]

It wouldn't be 'aftermarket' since Apple didn't make the original RAM to begin with since it's made by Hynix, Samsung or Micron which are the original RAM manufacturers and Apple 'relabeled' or 'rebranded' RAM when referring to RAM that came with an Apple device.

Wrong. Aftermarket is used to indicate all parts not sourced directly from the device manufacturer, regardless of whether the manufacturer makes these in their own factories, or itself sources them from suppliers.

And I already indicated in my post that Apple doesn't make it's own RAM, so you're just repeating what I said and treating that info. as if you're addding something new.

 

[chmania]

Wrong. Aftermarket is used to indicate all parts not sourced directly from the device manufacturer, regardless of whether the manufacturer makes these in their own factories, or itself sources them from suppliers.

Does Apple have its own factories, then?

 

[theorist9]

Does Apple have its own factories, then?

Irrelevant to the distinction between aftermarket and manufacturer-branded parts, since the latter typically come through the same supply chain as the original device parts, irrespective of whether that supply chain is internal or outsourced.

Is chmania interested in having an honest interchange, or just in trolling?

And yes, Apple does have its own factory, the Mac Pro facility in Austin, TX, but everyone knows that most of its manufacturing is outsourced.

I've decided I've reached my nonsense limit with you, so I'm out.

 

[chmania]

Irrelevant to the distinction between aftermarket and non-aftermarket parts.

This isn't about what's considered aftermarket or not; it's really about whether we can upgrade a Mac ourselves, particularly one with an M chip. Unfortunately, we can't, which means if we make a misjudgment with our initial choices or simply didn't have enough funds at the time, we're left with no option but to shell out for a new one. In contrast, with a PC or an older Mac, we might have had the opportunity to upgrade. But that's no longer the case.

I’m not necessarily saying I’ll switch to a PC, but to remain within the macOS ecosystem, I might consider getting a Mac Mini so I can select my own monitor. I’m rather fed up with the glare from the MacBook Pro’s screen, which I have to contend with while wearing anti-glare, blue light-blocking glasses. On the other hand, I need to weigh my options: should I opt for an older Intel Mac Mini that I can upgrade and stick with Sequoia for a while, or should I go for a Mac Mini with an M chip and then worry later about whether I’ve made the wrong choice regarding the RAM?

 

[Digital Dude]

I’ve never looked this deeply into the topic before, but I completely agree with you. I’ve been considering leaving Apple for a few years now. My journey with them started back in 1983 with the Apple IIc, and I’ve owned more Macs than I can count. But after my last MacBook Pro, with its terrible keyboard, failed for the second time, I was done. I couldn’t justify the cost of the newer Macs either, so I switched completely to iPad Pros.

Last December, I decided to try the Galaxy Tab S9 Ultra. I really wanted to keep it, but reality set in when I saw how few apps were optimized for Android tablets. I ended up returning it. On the phone side, I’ve been eyeing the Google Pixel and Samsung options, especially since I’m still using an iPhone 12 Pro Max and plan to upgrade in December or January. I’m seriously tempted to make the switch.

For those of us who’ve been with Apple for decades, it’s clear the company isn’t what it used to be. It’s like when boutique car manufacturers started selling entry-level models that watered down their iconic brands. Apple has done the same thing—cutting features and hardware to save money, while charging steep profits on products and services. Good for their business, but not great for me as a consumer.

I’ve stopped caring about the Apple logo. I’d rather have something more affordable that doesn’t sacrifice essential features. ✌️

 

[Technerd108]

Wow, some of you are taking things a bit far....

If we are talking laptops made in the past year or two they all have soldered ram. Most now even have soldered ssd's. Doesn't matter brand. You can specifically look for laptops that are upgradable. They have modular laptops that are upgradable but they are a tiny niche in the market.

So in laptop space I don't see why Apple is so different? Also ram and ssd upgrade costs are similar to Dell.

I’ve never looked this deeply into the topic before, but I completely agree with you. I’ve been considering leaving Apple for a few years now. My journey with them started back in 1983 with the Apple IIc, and I’ve owned more Macs than I can count. But after my last MacBook Pro, with its terrible keyboard, failed for the second time, I was done. I couldn’t justify the cost of the newer Macs either, so I switched completely to iPad Pros.

Last December, I decided to try the Galaxy Tab S9 Ultra. I really wanted to keep it, but reality set in when I saw how few apps were optimized for Android tablets. I ended up returning it. On the phone side, I’ve been eyeing the Google Pixel and Samsung options, especially since I’m still using an iPhone 12 Pro Max and plan to upgrade in December or January. I’m seriously tempted to make the switch.

For those of us who’ve been with Apple for decades, it’s clear the company isn’t what it used to be. It’s like when boutique car manufacturers started selling entry-level models that watered down their iconic brands. Apple has done the same thing—cutting features and hardware to save money, while charging steep profits on products and services. Good for their business, but not great for me as a consumer.

I’ve stopped caring about the Apple logo. I’d rather have something more affordable that doesn’t sacrifice essential features. ✌️

As I stated on a couple posts the grass may not be as green as you think on the other side?

All tech companies pretty much suck and are the worst in corporate greed and control with terrible environmental impacts despite greenwashing.

So then you just have to look at the hardware, design, features, performance now and in the future and key features specific to each individual. When I step back and look at it that way the total Apple experience is just better from hardware to software. Always room for improvement and less bugs in modern Mac/iOS software would be nice but compared to the competition for now, Apple is still best.

I am curious about the next version of Qualcomm surface laptop maybe next year but I am done with OEM's. It is either surface or MacBook and for now just MacBook.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Wow, some of you are taking things a bit far....

If we are talking laptops made in the past year or two they all have soldered ram. Most now even have soldered ssd's. Doesn't matter brand. You can specifically look for laptops that are upgradable. They have modular laptops that are upgradable but they are a tiny niche in the market.

So in laptop space I don't see why Apple is so different? Also ram and ssd upgrade costs are similar to Dell.

As I stated on a couple posts the grass may not be as green as you think on the other side?

All tech companies pretty much suck and are the worst in corporate greed and control with terrible environmental impacts despite greenwashing.

So then you just have to look at the hardware, design, features, performance now and in the future and key features specific to each individual. When I step back and look at it that way the total Apple experience is just better from hardware to software. Always room for improvement and less bugs in modern Mac/iOS software would be nice but compared to the competition for now, Apple is still best.

I am curious about the next version of Qualcomm surface laptop maybe next year but I am done with OEM's. It is either surface or MacBook and for now just MacBook.

This simply isn't true. First, you can get MASSIVE discounts off of the aforementioned prices...and most models do indeed at least allow upgrading the storage. My SP9, I literally doubled the storage for $40. My gaming laptop allowed me to upgrade both RAM and SSD. I went with 32GB RAM and an extra 1TB drive to $140. Apple is hundreds more than that at a 16" screen size. Also, in daily use, it doesn't get hot, nor does it have loud fans. Now, play a game (which can be done at far higher frame rates than a mac that costs 2 or 3 times more) and the fans kick up pretty dang loud. Still stays cool.

You can save thousands over Macs by going with Windows.

As far as the AI angle. We only have Apple's word for it that AI is going to be as private as it is. And as long as you avoid Copilot + PCs, then there is no AI on my computers.

But yes, that could be the one thing that if Apple executes well on the Mac, and Windows continues down it's path with AI, then I might go back. Until then, not doing it.

Edited to add:

Here is what I mean: Best Buy Deal on 14" Macbook Pro for 18/512 for $1699

vs.

HP 14" Spectre 2.8K OLED Ultra 8 32GB RAM/2TB SDD for $1200

So, you save $499 and get 4x the storage and 2x the RAM?

 

[Technerd108]

This simply isn't true. First, you can get MASSIVE discounts off of the aforementioned prices...and most models do indeed at least allow upgrading the storage. My SP9, I literally doubled the storage for $40. My gaming laptop allowed me to upgrade both RAM and SSD. I went with 32GB RAM and an extra 1TB drive to $140. Apple is hundreds more than that at a 16" screen size. Also, in daily use, it doesn't get hot, nor does it have loud fans. Now, play a game (which can be done at far higher frame rates than a mac that costs 2 or 3 times more) and the fans kick up pretty dang loud. Still stays cool.

You can save thousands over Macs by going with Windows.

As far as the AI angle. We only have Apple's word for it that AI is going to be as private as it is. And as long as you avoid Copilot + PCs, then there is no AI on my computers.

But yes, that could be the one thing that if Apple executes well on the Mac, and Windows continues down it's path with AI, then I might go back. Until then, not doing it.

It really depends on your use case whether or not Apple products make economic sense.

You can find newest M3 MBA with 16gb RAM and 512gb SSD for $1250 on sale. Similar high end Windows laptops cost about the same or more depending on brand and specs.

Maybe you can save thousands using Windows but for me it is not just initial cost I am most worried about but pleasure of use during the lifetime of the device. In fact, if I compare specs, wait for sales for similar grade laptops from Windows OEM's and do the same for a Mac the prices are very similar.

I can also get huge discounts on older Macs. M2 MBA new is very reasonable. You can still find m1 MBA and next year when m4 MBA is released m2 will be even cheaper. You can also find 16 RAM and 512gb SSD models from 3rd parties now. Buy a gently used Mac on swappa for even less.

The hardware on MacBook's is better despite not having all the latest and greatest specs. Apple will hold back on tech until it is good enough. This makes a difference. My M2 MBA and 5th gen iPad air are two of my favorite IPS LCD screens on any device. I like them better than OLED. Now I would like a mini led screen more than OLEd or LCD IPS.

My point is the hardware and software last longer and perform better and more cohesive longer than Windows alternatives. At least for my use case.

I don't game. I like picture quality and color accuracy and brilliance over the latest tech which I have used and feel is inferior.

I like sound quality. Not just volume but stereo separation, dynamic sound and clarity. Clarity is most important to me. MacBooks have great sound no matter the model. The only difference is volume level and bass for pro models.

Design. I just love simplicity and industrial design. To be honest before m2 MBA I actually liked the black aluminum surface laptop in terms of look and design and materials. To me design matters.

Most Windows laptops just aren't built the same. I have a Samsung GB4 Pro 360 and it is probably the closest thing to Apple in terms of build quality and design. Even still it is not as good. Dell, HP, and others are even worse with bending back panels, cheap materials and flex. If you buy the most expensive OEM laptop they are definitely nice but they have flaws a MacBook won't.

Of course all companies make lemons and bad designs. Intel Macs are a great example.

Now with M series chips and new designs MacBooks are better than they have ever been.

You game. I only game retro games and only lightly. It is not a priority at all for me.

You say I can save thousands with Windows and I don't agree and my personal experience would show otherwise.

For anything other than cheap Windows laptops or Gaming laptops I save thousands over Windows laptops and I will explain why.

As I said, comparatively for laptops I would be in the market for the costs are not that much different unless you really high spec a Mac which I don't. So cost is within a $100 or so.

Then you factor in the experience using the Mac. My M2 MBA feels as fast as I bought it. Battery life is the same. Performance is really good with no heat and no fans while my latest Windows laptops doing the same tasks will be spinning fans and heating up. I have encountered slow downs and fan spin ups randomly on Windows. Never experienced that on my Mac?

So I don't feel a need to buy a new Windows laptop because in a year it has slowed down, runs fans more, and is generally a less pleasant experience day to day for me. So I am saving by keeping my Mac longer than I would a comparative Windows laptop.

For you Windows may always be a necessity and something you enjoy. But cost is relative to a lot of factors other than initial cost.

All tech is spying on us. At least Apple publicly stated they don't and are implementing security and privacy controls into the AI. The data the AI can access is limited to Apple hardware. MS doesn't really talk too much about privacy or security with CoPilot. Most new Windows laptops have NPU and will have co pilot button. AI is integrated into the OS even if you don't have a NPU, your integrated GPU is more than powerful enough to run AI.

But hey I have a Pixel phone. I may as well have a straight line to the NSA. 😂.

Little by little doing what I can to have at least a baseline of privacy and security that I don't have to pay a fee for. Trying to dumb down devices as much as I can. Losing battle I am sure.

 

[chmania]

Once, I mentioned that I have to look at the MacBook screen through anti-glare, anti-blue light glasses—doctor's orders, mind you. I had a look at the MacBook screen when it was dark and could see my reflection along with everything behind me. When I switched on the light behind me, it seemed to leap out of the screen. In days gone by, I used to have a table lamp behind me while using a laptop, but these days, I’ve given that up. All my previous laptops had matte screens, and even my television has a matte finish—no light reflects off it, just a few slight shadows. The cause of my eye strain was (and still is) the shiny MacBook screen. It might be a marketing ploy to have that glossy finish on MacBooks, but it certainly doesn’t benefit users in the long run. So, later in the evening, I ordered a 24" matte screen monitor, an EIZO FlexScan EV. Once it arrives, I’ll use the MacBook Pro in clamshell mode until I sell it off. Perhaps then I’ll consider getting a Mac mini if I decide to stick with macOS, which I really like as an operating system.

 

[MikeTaku]

Once, I mentioned that I have to look at the MacBook screen through anti-glare, anti-blue light glasses—doctor's orders, mind you. I had a look at the MacBook screen when it was dark and could see my reflection along with everything behind me. When I switched on the light behind me, it seemed to leap out of the screen. In days gone by, I used to have a table lamp behind me while using a laptop, but these days, I’ve given that up. All my previous laptops had matte screens, and even my television has a matte finish—no light reflects off it, just a few slight shadows. The cause of my eye strain was (and still is) the shiny MacBook screen. It might be a marketing ploy to have that glossy finish on MacBooks, but it certainly doesn’t benefit users in the long run. So, later in the evening, I ordered a 24" matte screen monitor, an EIZO FlexScan EV. Once it arrives, I’ll use the MacBook Pro in clamshell mode until I sell it off. Perhaps then I’ll consider getting a Mac mini if I decide to stick with macOS, which I really like as an operating system.

Hey,
I've just read your message and I would like to know how can a glossy MacBook screen affect eye strain, and what alternatives might help reduce reflections and discomfort during extended use?
Thanks,
Mike Taku.

 

[chmania]

Hey,
I've just read your message and I would like to know how can a glossy MacBook screen affect eye strain, and what alternatives might help reduce reflections and discomfort during extended use?
Thanks,
Mike Taku.

Actually, I checked with the eye doctor. It’s always best to consult with the eye doctor when something unusual is happening with your eyes. For the moment, he advised me to get those anti-glare, anti-blue light glasses, which are of zero strength. I’ve never experienced such strain before with matte screens. My wife’s laptop has a matte screen as well, but it’s a Windows one.

 

[MikeTaku]

Actually, I checked with the eye doctor. It’s always best to consult with the eye doctor when something unusual is happening with your eyes. For the moment, he advised me to get those anti-glare, anti-blue light glasses, which are of zero strength. I’ve never experienced such strain before with matte screens. My wife’s laptop has a matte screen as well, but it’s a Windows one.

I don't know, but if your doctor recommends blue light or anti-glare glasses, I wouldn't believe it because I use anti-blue light glasses and still have red, watery eyes when using my laptop.

 

[chmania]

I don't know, but if your doctor recommends blue light or anti-glare glasses, I wouldn't believe it because I use anti-blue light glasses and still have red, watery eyes when using my laptop.

My eye doctor was simply trying to assist me, but didn’t quite go so far as to advise against using MacBooks. As I mentioned, I’ll be parting ways with the MacBook, as the eye strain persists even with these glasses. I’ve ordered a matte, anti-blue light monitor, which should arrive in a few days. Of course, everyone has different eyes, so it’s always best to check with your eye doctor for personalised advice.

 

[drrich2]

I had a look at the MacBook screen when it was dark and could see my reflection along with everything behind me. When I switched on the light behind me, it seemed to leap out of the screen. In days gone by, I used to have a table lamp behind me while using a laptop, but these days, I’ve given that up. All my previous laptops had matte screens, and even my television has a matte finish—no light reflects off it, just a few slight shadows.

If your experience was very common I imagine matte would heavily predominate (and not just on MacBooks; you said even your t.v. is matte). Since both light source examples you gave involved said source being behind you, did you try overload lighting? I would think so, but how did it work out?

 

[chmania]

If your experience was very common I imagine matte would heavily predominate (and not just on MacBooks; you said even your t.v. is matte). Since both light source examples you gave involved said source being behind you, did you try overload lighting? I would think so, but how did it work out?

When it comes to profit, I suppose someone's eyes are not taken into consideration, hence the prevalence of glossy screens. I’ve used matte screen laptops in the past, and my eyes were far less troubled compared to my experience with the MacBook Pro. While glossy screens may present images in a vivid manner that appeals to marketing, they are likely not the best choice for your eyes—especially if your computer is essential to your livelihood. I can’t speak for the fans who would buy anything from a particular brand, but matte monitors are certainly predominant in offices, as no one wants the entire office reflected on their screen.

In any case, I’ve already ordered a matte monitor after discussing it with the technical person. The MacBook is a lovely device, but my eyes are far more valuable to me. Perhaps in the future, I’ll consider getting a Mac Mini.

 

[it wasnt me]

Linux is very similar to Unix but some interfaces can look a lot like Windows.

You can actually have a Windows-like desktop on UNIX.

 

[MikeTaku]

My eye doctor was simply trying to assist me, but didn’t quite go so far as to advise against using MacBooks. As I mentioned, I’ll be parting ways with the MacBook, as the eye strain persists even with these glasses. I’ve ordered a matte, anti-blue light monitor, which should arrive in a few days. Of course, everyone has different eyes, so it’s always best to check with your eye doctor for personalised advice.

Yes, you're right! It's best to get your eyes checked by a good doctor first and then make the right choice.

 

[DeepSix]

With Lunar Lake here now, this is the first year in probably a decade where the Macbook Air has competition. Lots of super impressive PC laptops out this year.

 

[drrich2]

When it comes to profit, I suppose someone's eyes are not taken into consideration, hence the prevalence of glossy screens. I’ve used matte screen laptops in the past, and my eyes were far less troubled compared to my experience with the MacBook Pro.

There are a number of matte products out there for people who want them; seems like the buying public prefers glossy.

On the issue of troubling people's eyes, that seems very individual. Some people really appreciate Pro-motion, some not so much. Some find iPad Mini 6 'jelly scrolling' a big deal, some don't. Some people find a little backlight bleed borderline intolerable and some would hardly notice it.

That said, eye health is something tech. aficionados need consider. I've read the incidence of near-sightedness in children has grown markedly, and it's thought extended use of items close to the face (like tablets, phones and even books) may interfere with the natural development of the lens in the eye, so it doesn't stop where it should (going off memory here). My home system setup has me crashed in a recliner with my face around 5 feet from my 27" monitor; hopefully that reduces eye strain (I'm not a minor!).

In any case, I’ve already ordered a matte monitor after discussing it with the technical person.

Oh, if matte displays work well for you, great, but have you used displays with higher refresh rates? I don't know why you have more eye difficulties than most, but I'm curious if refresh rates substantially faster than 60-Hz would be helpful for you.

 

[chmania]

That said, eye health is something tech. aficionados need consider.

The tech enthusiasts might take this into account, but they are not the ones who run the show or determine what profits should be generated.

I don't know why you have more eye difficulties than most, but I'm curious if refresh rates substantially faster than 60-Hz would be helpful for you.

I don’t play games or engage in any video editing. It’s just a bit of office work and perhaps some YouTube videos. I can manage with either Windows or Linux, but I have a preference for macOS. By the way, I’m not the only one experiencing eye strain.

 

[drrich2]

I don’t play games or engage in any video editing. It’s just a bit of office work and perhaps some YouTube videos.

Understood. I get eye strain (possibly due to dry eyes) in the evening some days, exacerbated by trying to read. Decades ago, when Windows was in version 3.0, my mother loved to play Windows Solitaire but had to quit because she got eye strain using my PC's monitor, whereas my father and I had no such trouble.

My point is, some people appear particularly susceptible to problems most wouldn't notice. I don't know whether a faster refresh rate would help you, given the activities you engage in via computer, but it's conceivable. Whatever you go with, I hope it works for you.

When I bought my 2022 M2 11" iPad Pro, one of the selling points was Pro-motion. Some think it's easier on some people's eyes. Face ID was the other consideration.