Bye, Bye for now Apple, it has been fun!

[mi7chy]

this is there every time i boot my computer regardless of how many times i click the x. and this is a custom built tower with a straight install of windows 10, there's no 3rd party bloatware beyond what microsoft themselves puts in. when i searched online for how to get rid of it, plenty of others seem to be in the same boat, and the consensus was there isn't a setting that removes it. i mean i'll be eternally grateful if y'all know some obvious thing i'm missing.

but my point remains, all tech companies are guilty of this nonsense and we should hold them all accountable rather than playing brand loyalty. the more people let any company get away with spammy stuff, the more the industry shifts to this being the default experience.
View attachment 2435974

Go to Windows Settings and search for "suggestion" to reveal knobs that you can toggle. Screenshot below is from Windows 11 but procedure is similar on 10. This is borderline offensive since it can be helpful for new learners vs experienced but at least you can turn them off.

Share if anyone knows how about to disable the subscription nagware in MacOS native apps. Some, if I recall iMovie, has nagware within nagware.

 

[G5isAlive]

The biggest issue is the inability to post purchase upgrade the macbook, pro or air, you are stuck with what you bought, and that is to my way of thinking a huge blunder, I am sure with a couple of months of PHD salaries from 13 yr olds graduates from MIT/CalTech, the problems of upgrading post purchase could have been solved..

You are solving for (U)pgrade when Apple solved for (P)rofit. They have a simpler machine to build that is arguably more robust. Laptops are great for traveling, which I do a lot. I had those old clunker, much heavier, Mac laptops and did have problems with the batteries coming loose, or worse the Ram. My guess is those that havent experienced that never traveled a lot. I don't miss those old machines and appreciate the lighter, more robust replacements of today.

I would have loved to have over the years invested in upgrades.. Apple I think missed the point..

Apple lost a lot of upgrades I would have bought, and am still not buying, with my 1st macbook pro, I bought upgrade RAM, hard drives, batteries, I invested, and it was worth it.. I would have done the same with the 2nd macbook pro that lasted 12 yrs,

Someone missed the point for sure. Apple sells computers. A person that buys one every decade whether they need it or not is not Apple's target consumer. And anything you would have paid at some point in upgrades, Apple gets upfront by people paying high prices out of the box for more Ram and Storage. And the fact is, back in the day when one could upgrade Ram and Hard drives, many if not most, bought the cheapest Apple laptop and upgraded with cheaper third party hardware, so Apple was taking a loss on that feature. Do you really think Apple missed the point?

 

[theorist9]

the least charitable read of non-upgradeable hardware is that apple doesn't lose component upgrade sales, they gain entire additional device sales the more often people need to replace their systems.

The non-upgradeability of Macs certainly benefits Apple financially, but I don't believe it's because of this. I think the percentage of Mac consumers that would keep their machines longer if only they could increase the RAM or storage is small.

Apple lost a lot of upgrades I would have bought, and am still not buying, with my 1st macbook pro, I bought upgrade RAM, hard drives, batteries, I invested, and it was worth it.. I would have done the same with the 2nd macbook pro that lasted 12 yrs, upgraded the RAM, hard drive, screen, bought more things, but there is nothing to buy, so Apple makes $0...

I don't think they lose much money for this reason. Among those that did upgrade their Macs (back when they could be upgraded), I believe the overwhelming majority purchased aftermarket RAM and storage, since it worked fine and cost a fraction of what Apple charged.

IMO, the non-upgradeability of Macs provides significant financial benefit to Apple, and the reason is that it forces anyone who needs more RAM or storage than what's in the base model to purchase that, up-front, at Apple prices. Indeed, I think a lot of the profit margin for Macs comes from users paying those RAM & SSD upgrade prices.

That's not to say that's the only reason Apple does this, at least for the RAM. They use LPDDR RAM for its power efficiency, and that RAM has to be soldered as a practical matter (yes, technically, it's possible to have slotted LPDDR, but that's not a practical implementation). Plus their UMA probably requires the RAM be very close to the SoC, and soldered RAM gives them that.

Thus the non-upgradeable RAM provides triple benefits to Apple: It increases power efficiency, performance, and profits (soldered RAM might also be more robust, but that doesn't work with my alliteration).

On the other hand, we know there is no technical barrier to them allowing aftermarket upgradeable storage. Their unwillingness to do that is purely financial.

 

[Danimacs]

I didn't know how to broach this subject because I am not writing this based on one OS or hardware's superiority. I like Mac's. They are beautiful, functional and powerful. They are a rip off to a certain extent, I hate Apple's business practices and manufacturing. I hate a lot of things within the various OS that Apple develops. But I love a lot of it too. Not the first sentence but the second, The OS is pretty sweet, and the various devices all have great software and hardware. Apple is pretty much King in terms of the "Best". The best security, the best design, the best cpu/gpu in mobile, and so much more. So I am no hater of Apple. But over time things have gotten to a point where I either hobble along and deal with it or I vote with my dollars to hopefully start to make a change.

I am one person so I am meaningless to Apple but if enough people in a similar situation as I am do what I do then it will start to hurt Apple's bottom line and then they might pay attention and start to change.

I am talking about the ladder and lock in. Two things I hate most about Apple right now. There equipment in some cases is objectively better but not in all areas. The ladder is the technique of upselling the customer by holding back certain features that are not costly but hamper user experience in such a way a user wants to go up the ladder to the better model, then they will want better than base specs. Everything pushes you up the ladder and gets progressively more expensive. Ram/SSD upgrades anyone? Pro motion only on a pro device although pro motion would enhance the overall experience of all users and is not a pro level feature in other brand devices. This pushes many consumers to buy an iPad Pro over an iPad Air when they really only need an air for their use case.

Lock in we all know the Apple ecosystem is great. Say you have an iPhone a Mac and an iPad. They all work great together and you can share files, make calls and texts from any device. Say you get an Android phone and keep the rest. Now your entire ecosystem is broken and no longer can you do any of the things you could with your iPhone. Even though you bought the Mac and iPad and should have the same functionality no matter the phone or computer you use but Apple locks you in and gimps your experience on purpose so you don't buy anything other than Apple products. Apple could easily offer some basic compatibility and basic feature sharing but they don't. They could still offer more features for Apple products but give all basic compatibility and save special features for Apple to encourage people to buy Apple rather than just have it wreck their experience.

So it is been a long time coming but I have decided to let go of my Mac and iPad and just go Windows and Android for a while. I don't know if I will go back to Apple because until they change I would be forced to go all in or nothing. I don't want to buy something and have half the features work because of free choice. The convenience for lock in is a bargain I am no longer willing to make and I shouldn't. Apple should want their products to work well with other products just from a business use perspective.

I know a lot of people don't care about this issue or even like it and it makes them feel exclusive or special in a special group or club. But I want to use multiple different devices together and not have to have separate ecosystems. So I will stay on Windows/Linux/Android side of things. I may be back because I still like Apple. Then I could talk cost. I can't afford to keep two separate platforms, it has become too expensive in this economy for me. I can get so much more ram and ssd and better hardware with a couple of exceptions for a lot less than Apple. Sure a 16" MBP with M3 Pro is a better laptop than my 16" Samsung GalaxyBook 4 Pro 360 in some ways but it costs a lot more and is a lot heavier and the Ultra is available if I needed graphic horsepower and it is still cheaper than equivalent MBP. Obviously Intel has not caught up with m series yet. Although Meteor lake is a huge step in the right direction it is NOT YET equivalent to M3 in all areas. But the difference in terms of performance and battery life are so much better than before that Intel is now in m series ballpark. Intel has to get to 4nm probably before they will be competitive directly but by then who knows how advanced Apple m series will be. But in my opinion it is not about having the absolute best but good enough. Specially if I am saving over $1000. I personally think Intel is finally good enough. Room for a lot of improvement-yes. But good enough I can go a whole day without worrying about charging and I can get the same performance on battery as plugged in if I adjust settings and battery life is still good enough. Maybe I get 6-8 hours slamming the machine on battery vs 10-12 if I am not. I can deal with those numbers. What sucked before was 3-6 hours average battery life with 1-2 on heavy use and a big difference throttled on battery no matter the settings. That is a huge improvement.

So I have settled on two devices since I have to have a back up device no matter what platform and I like a 14" and 16" for different taks. I was going to get a 14" chromebook but they suck so much in terms of getting a nice chromebook that doesn't cost $1000. So in order to get a fast and responsive Chromebook with a decent ssd, ram, and processor, decent bright screen and speakers in something other than plastic you are looking at $1000 and the specs still aren't as good as a comparable priced Windows laptop. So I ditched that idea and decided on two Windows laptops, one Android tablet, an Android phone, an android watch and some ear buds. They all work flawlessly together and have more features than are available in an Mac.

So my two laptops have OLED 120hz touchscreens with AR coating and variable refresh rate and a hardened glass. You can't get anything like it on any Mac no matter how much you spend. I have a pencil or stylus with every major device I own. S pen on phone, tablet and PC. Not available on Mac or iPhone. Then there are new AI features like a circle to search feature in Windows!!

I will sell all my Apple stuff and end up paying a little out of pocket but I will be happy with everything I own. Samsung and HP give generous specs for the cost compared to Apple. I have a 2tb drive on the HP and 1tb drive on Samsung and Samsung gave me a free 2tb portable ssd. If I were to try to get just a 2tb drive it would cost a lot.

Apple products are really great but both Android and Windows OEM's have drastically improved on their top end devices the design, quality and materials to get close or even surpass Apple.

If I were to go all in on Apple with only one laptop, one iPad, one watch and ear buds it would cost me at least double and I would half the specs in order to do it with lesser hardware in some areas. M3 would be faster in some ways but not all. M3 Pro or better is faster and better in battery life but at the price point of pro m3 and decent specs cost gets prohibitive specially in the 16" which I would want but it is such a heavy beast. It is close to 5 pounds while my 16" GB4 is only 3.5 pounds. Big difference. And the GB4 still feels solid and has an objectively better screen for everything but brightness.

So while I will miss Apple and I have no hard feelings I am pretty confident with my choice. I have been using computers since before Apple 2 and Windows 95. I remember DOS and green and amber CRT screens. So I am very comfortable in any computing environment from flashy GUI to Text prompts. Apple and Unix have always been more complex for me to use because there are more steps for me to take toa accomplish the same task in Windows. Linux is very similar to Unix but some interfaces can look a lot like Windows. And I really like the ability to use Linux if I want to on my laptop.

I may visit a Chromebook again when they get some more compelling devices. I really like ChromeOS and being able to use a full Linux install within ChromeOS is very cool. The hardware just needs to catch up. I am not paying $600 for a laptop with EMMC storage or a celeron processor. I can't stand 250nits 45%ntsc screens!! Like put an ultra 7 155h 16gb ddr5x ram, 120hz Oled touch screen, minimum 256gb nvme pci4 ssd. all in a nice aluminum build. Priced at say $799. It would be the perfect Chromebook but now we got crap.

So Windows and Android for now....

.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

The non-upgradeability of Macs certainly benefits Apple financially, but I don't believe it's because of this. I think the percentage of Mac consumers that would keep their machines longer if only they could increase the RAM or storage is small.

I don't think they lose much money for this reason. Among those that did upgrade their Macs (back when they could be upgraded), I believe the overwhelming majority purchased aftermarket RAM and storage, since it worked fine and cost a fraction of what Apple charged.

IMO, the non-upgradeability of Macs provides significant financial benefit to Apple, and the reason is that it forces anyone who needs more RAM or storage than what's in the base model to purchase that, up-front, at Apple prices. Indeed, I think a lot of the profit margin for Macs comes from users paying those RAM & SSD upgrade prices.

That's not to say that's the only reason Apple does this, at least for the RAM. They use LPDDR RAM for its power efficiency, and that RAM has to be soldered as a practical matter (yes, technically, it's possible to have slotted LPDDR, but that's not a practical implementation). Plus their UMA probably requires the RAM be very close to the SoC, and soldered RAM gives them that.

Thus the non-upgradeable RAM provides triple benefits to Apple: It increases power efficiency, performance, and profits (soldered RAM might also be more robust, but that doesn't work with my alliteration).

On the other hand, we know there is no technical barrier to them allowing aftermarket upgradeable storage. Their unwillingness to do that is purely financial.

Totally agree. When I bought my macbook pro back in the 2012 (I think it was?) days, I upgraded the RAM and HDD myself. That allowed me to justify a beefier MBP--especially as I could boot camp it as well.

Now? They are just addicted to that sweet sweet upgrade money. It's ridiculous at this point.

Amazon has 64 GB DDR5 laptop RAM for $170...and a 1TB second drive is like $70. So your gaming laptop can have 64 GB RAM and an extra 1TB SSD for $240.

First to even get a 16 inch Macbook Pro to buy 64 RAM, I have to select the $700 MAX upgrade on the processor. Then I can spend $800 on the RAM. 2TB Drive (as I can have only one) is $600. Total price is $2100.

Yikes.

 

[russell_314]

I don’t see the point of upgradable RAM. Buy the configuration you need and it solves this problem.

The one edge case I see people talking about is they want to keep it for a decade so upgrading the RAM will help. The reality is you are going to have a slow CPU with more RAM at that point. It’s time for a complete upgrade instead of trying to make use of a slow laptop.

If only we could upgrade the CPU and RAM that would make sense, but I don’t think that’s been a thing in most laptops for a while. There’s a reason because newer CPU’s won’t be compatible with older motherboards. So you would have to upgrade the RAM, CPU, and motherboard. Framework laptops promise upgrades on the motherboard so this might be a consideration if you want to keep the same screen and housing but replace the electronics.

 

[drrich2]

I don’t see the point of upgradable RAM. Buy the configuration you need and it solves this problem.

The point was much lower 3rd party RAM costs.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

I don’t see the point of upgradable RAM. Buy the configuration you need and it solves this problem.

You know what you need now. But can you predict the future? Circumstances, jobs, software requirements, use cases etc. etc. can change.

 

[theorist9]

Totally agree. When I bought my macbook pro back in the 2012 (I think it was?) days, I upgraded the RAM and HDD myself. That allowed me to justify a beefier MBP--especially as I could boot camp it as well.

Now? They are just addicted to that sweet sweet upgrade money. It's ridiculous at this point.

Amazon has 64 GB DDR5 laptop RAM for $170...and a 1TB second drive is like $70. So your gaming laptop can have 64 GB RAM and an extra 1TB SSD for $240.

First to even get a 16 inch Macbook Pro to buy 64 RAM, I have to select the $700 MAX upgrade on the processor. Then I can spend $800 on the RAM. 2TB Drive (as I can have only one) is $600. Total price is $2100.

Yikes.

Yup, that's their business model. It allows them to price the base machines relatively low (thus making them accessible to students, whom Apple needs to bring into its ecosystem as early as possible to ensure its future Mac customer base), while maintaining high profit margins.

 

[LeeW]

The reality is you are going to have a slow CPU with more RAM at that point.

I have a PC here at home running an old i5, must be about 8-10 years old now, for what I use is it for the CPU remains plenty fast. It had 8GB Ram, then 16GB Ram and now 32GB ram. Being able to upgrade the ram is what has kept it going this long.

Many laptops would be the same. Depends on use case of course. I have accepted that the Mx series will likely never have upgradeable ram and that's fine as I limit my Mac use to a specific use case where I can buy what I need and know that will last long enough to get me to the next upgrade point when I can push the ram up as needed.

 

[theorist9]

I don’t see the point of upgradable RAM. Buy the configuration you need and it solves this problem.

The one edge case I see people talking about is they want to keep it for a decade so upgrading the RAM will help. The reality is you are going to have a slow CPU with more RAM at that point. It’s time for a complete upgrade instead of trying to make use of a slow laptop.

I agree with @drrich2 that the main reason people dislike the non-upgradeable RAM is having to pay Apple prices for it.

However, @AndyMacAndMic also had it right. A couple of decades ago I purchased a new PowerMac G5 for my research. The RAM it came with was fine for the work we were doing. However, two years in we realized we needed to model longer biopolymers, which required more RAM (because of the array size required). Because the box was upgradeable, the machine continued to be useful.

A sudden and unexpected need for more RAM, while probably unusual for the average consumer, is not surprising for machines used in research.

 

[russell_314]

The point was much lower 3rd party RAM costs.

Yes, you are correct. I think Apple uses higher upgrade prices to make the base configuration more affordable. This allows people who only need the basic configuration to have an affordable option. Like how Apple charges crazy high prices for their computers intended for the higher end market (Mac Pro). Without being political, I think what they’re doing is letting the more wealthy customers subsidize products for their less wealthy customers. I’m not sure how I feel about this, but it is what it is 🤷‍♂️

You know what you need now. But can you predict the future? Circumstances, jobs, software requirements, use cases etc. etc. can change.

I understand this, but if your situation drastically changes unexpectedly that’s when you have to get a different computer. Right now I’m using a MacBook Air but if I got a job as a video editor, I don’t think it would be ideal for that kind of work. Sure it might do it but not very well. I would have to buy a MacBook Pro or even a Mac Studio. This being said if you think you’re going to go into a certain field that requires something like this, perhaps consider that when you make the purchase.

I have a PC here at home running an old i5, must be about 8-10 years old now, for what I use is it for the CPU remains plenty fast. It had 8GB Ram, then 16GB Ram and now 32GB ram. Being able to upgrade the ram is what has kept it going this long.

Many laptops would be the same. Depends on use case of course. I have accepted that the Mx series will likely never have upgradeable ram and that's fine as I limit my Mac use to a specific use case where I can buy what I need and know that will last long enough to get me to the next upgrade point when I can push the ram up as needed.

I think Windows laptops don’t work as well for longevity. At least in my experience, the hardware fails long before it becomes obsolete. With desktop computers they never seem to die.

Even if for example, that wasn’t true because everyone’s experiences are different, I agree that if you have more RAM that you can extend the life of the computer. That’s something you would have to take into consideration when you make the purchase. Even though I am a little bit wasteful with my money and will over spec sometimes if I was given some advice, I would advise against it. I don’t think it makes sense to spend $400 extra for ram and then while you’re at it spend another $400 extra for SSD so that computer can last another three years. Take the $800 and buy a newer computer three years earlier. It will be considerably faster even with lower specs.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I don’t see the point of upgradable RAM. Buy the configuration you need and it solves this problem.

The one edge case I see people talking about is they want to keep it for a decade so upgrading the RAM will help. The reality is you are going to have a slow CPU with more RAM at that point. It’s time for a complete upgrade instead of trying to make use of a slow laptop.

If only we could upgrade the CPU and RAM that would make sense, but I don’t think that’s been a thing in most laptops for a while. There’s a reason because newer CPU’s won’t be compatible with older motherboards. So you would have to upgrade the RAM, CPU, and motherboard. Framework laptops promise upgrades on the motherboard so this might be a consideration if you want to keep the same screen and housing but replace the electronics.

I literally upgraded my laptop RAM and added an extra SSD when I got it last year?

I saved thousands over what a Macbook Pro would have been at the time.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I agree with @drrich2 that the main reason people dislike the non-upgradeable RAM is having to pay Apple prices for it.

However, @AndyMacAndMic also had it right. A couple of decades ago I purchased a new PowerMac G5 for my research. The RAM it came with was fine for the work we were doing. However, two years in we realized we needed to model longer biopolymers, which required more RAM (because of the array size required). Because the box was upgradeable, the machine continued to be useful.

A sudden and unexpected need for more RAM, while probably unusual for the average consumer, is not surprising for machines used in research.

Yeah it would almost be like if people suddenly needed more RAM say for AI becoming a thing all the sudden.

 

[theorist9]

Yeah it would almost be like if people suddenly needed more RAM say for AI becoming a thing all the sudden.

Apple even published a paper about how to run LLM's on machines with limited RAM by configuring them to efficiently swap to the SSD.

Now obviously most consumers aren't going to be creating and running LLM's directly. But this paper's abstract suggests that some of the apps consumers will be routinely using will incorporate LLM's that will in turn require a lot of RAM.

Efficient LLM Inference With Limited Memory (Apple)

A technical paper titled “LLM in a flash: Efficient Large Language Model Inference with Limited Memory” was published by researchers at Apple. Abstract: “Large language models (LLMs) are central to modern natural language processing, delivering exceptional performance in various tasks. However...

semiengineering.com

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Apple even published a paper about how to run LLM's on machines with limited RAM by configuring them to efficiency swap to the SSD.

Now obviously most consumers aren't going to be creating and running LLM's directly. But this paper's abstract suggests that some of the apps consumers will be routinely using will incorporate LLM's that will in turn require a lot of RAM.

Efficient LLM Inference With Limited Memory (Apple)

A technical paper titled “LLM in a flash: Efficient Large Language Model Inference with Limited Memory” was published by researchers at Apple. Abstract: “Large language models (LLMs) are central to modern natural language processing, delivering exceptional performance in various tasks. However...

semiengineering.com

What would be even more helpful would be the ability to add more RAM…

 

[russell_314]

I literally upgraded my laptop RAM and added an extra SSD when I got it last year?

I saved thousands over what a Macbook Pro would have been at the time.

You bought a new laptop last year, then upgraded it?

I was talking about either buying RAM and SSD upgrades when you get a new MacBook or upgrading an old one that’s 7 to 10 years old. My point is once it’s that old, even the cheapest base model MacBook for $899 will be considerably faster regardless of how much RAM the old laptop has. If you’re willing to go to Windows even a $500 Windows laptop would be considerably faster than a 7 to 10 year old laptop. Not only that but if it’s a Mac, you’re not on the latest version of macOS so you’re missing security updates. If you’re running Windows, that old laptop wont be happy on 11 unless you run a stripped down version with all the Microsoft telemetry/ bloatware removed.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

You bought a new laptop last year, then upgraded it?

I was talking about either buying RAM and SSD upgrades when you get a new MacBook or upgrading an old one that’s 7 to 10 years old. My point is once it’s that old, even the cheapest base model MacBook for $899 will be considerably faster regardless of how much RAM the old laptop has. If you’re willing to go to Windows even a $500 Windows laptop would be considerably faster than a 7 to 10 year old laptop. Not only that but if it’s a Mac, you’re not on the latest version of macOS so you’re missing security updates. If you’re running Windows, that old laptop wont be happy on 11 unless you run a stripped down version with all the Microsoft telemetry/ bloatware removed.

Right, but you stated as if there were no more laptops that allowed one to upgrade the RAM and SSD. I guess you meant Apple laptops? Then it is true.

But since I thought you meant all laptops? Literally every windows PC I buy I save money by upgrading RAM/SSD.

Late last year, I bought an Acer Predator Helios Neo 16" gaming laptop with an i7-13700HX and RTX 4060 with 16GB/1TB for $999 refurbished rom Acer with an included 2 year warranty. Added a second 1TB SSD and went to 32GB RAM for like $140 a little while later.

Last summer, I bought a Surface Pro 9 off Swappa for $650. Because I can, I swapped out the 256 SSD for a 512 one for like $40. Again, I bought both at the same tine.

So...these aren't old. They run the latest windows and will for like 5 more years at least.

 

[russell_314]

Right, but you stated as if there were no more laptops that allowed one to upgrade the RAM and SSD. I guess you meant Apple laptops? Then it is true.

But since I thought you meant all laptops? Literally every windows PC I buy I save money by upgrading RAM/SSD.

Late last year, I bought an Acer Predator Helios Neo 16" gaming laptop with an i7-13700HX and RTX 4060 with 16GB/1TB for $999 refurbished rom Acer with an included 2 year warranty. Added a second 1TB SSD and went to 32GB RAM for like $140 a little while later.

Last summer, I bought a Surface Pro 9 off Swappa for $650. Because I can, I swapped out the 256 SSD for a 512 one for like $40. Again, I bought both at the same tine.

So...these aren't old. They run the latest windows and will for like 5 more years at least.

So you’re talking about buying new laptops, then upgrading the RAM? I was mostly talking about upgrading the RAM to keep the laptop longer rather than to save money during the purchase. Clearly, if you can buy cheaper RAM for a new MacBook it would be saving money so I can’t disagree with that.


You’re comparing a gaming laptop with a MacBook. Sure you can upgrade the RAM on gaming laptops because they’re bulky as hell compared to MacBooks. I noticed you didn’t upgrade the RAM on that Surface Pro. I’m guessing Microsoft doesn’t make it that easy to do.

If I said there were no laptops I clearly meant MacBooks because I’m aware of a percentage of Windows laptops with this capability. It’s getting fewer as they’re catching up with new technology. Just like you used to be able to upgrade the CPU on laptops but not anymore. There are advantages of having these chips permanently attached. Also, if you want to get technical you can upgrade the RAM on a MacBook, but it takes specialized equipment. It’s definitely not something the end user can do.

I like the ability to upgrade RAM, SSD, CPU, and even the GPU but I don’t think it’s worth trading performance or bulk to get this. Just like I would like it if I could swap out the battery on my iPhone, but I wouldn’t want to trade thickness or water resistance to get it. Usually everything has a trade off and that’s where companies decide what most consumers want. Most consumers would rather have a thinner, sleeker and better performing laptop than one they can upgrade RAM immediately after purchase. That’s just not something most people do.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

So you’re talking about buying new laptops, then upgrading the RAM? I was mostly talking about upgrading the RAM to keep the laptop longer rather than to save money during the purchase. Clearly, if you can buy cheaper RAM for a new MacBook it would be saving money so I can’t disagree with that.


You’re comparing a gaming laptop with a MacBook. Sure you can upgrade the RAM on gaming laptops because they’re bulky as hell compared to MacBooks. I noticed you didn’t upgrade the RAM on that Surface Pro. I’m guessing Microsoft doesn’t make it that easy to do.

If I said there were no laptops I clearly meant MacBooks because I’m aware of a percentage of Windows laptops with this capability. It’s getting fewer as they’re catching up with new technology. Just like you used to be able to upgrade the CPU on laptops but not anymore. There are advantages of having these chips permanently attached. Also, if you want to get technical you can upgrade the RAM on a MacBook, but it takes specialized equipment. It’s definitely not something the end user can do.

I like the ability to upgrade RAM, SSD, CPU, and even the GPU but I don’t think it’s worth trading performance or bulk to get this. Just like I would like it if I could swap out the battery on my iPhone, but I wouldn’t want to trade thickness or water resistance to get it. Usually everything has a trade off and that’s where companies decide what most consumers want. Most consumers would rather have a thinner, sleeker and better performing laptop than one they can upgrade RAM immediately after purchase. That’s just not something most people do.

Okay, we will just have to disagree. You are clearly ignoring the parts you wish to ignore. Have a good day.

 

[russell_314]

Okay, we will just have to disagree. You are clearly ignoring the parts you wish to ignore. Have a good day.

I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing on?

 

[JustinePaula]

Here in South Africa, tech is stupid expensive, so you have to make do, look I get the Build to Order, BTO, being viable in the US, the UK, Ireland, Western parts of Europe, Japan and Singapore/Australia/New Zealand.. But not in Africa..

As Apple builds laptops with certain keyboards, it would not be that hard to design and sell laptops that are upgradeable over time.. I buy low and upgrade and in a couple years, sell the laptop which for a mac might last 15 yrs, our mac pro's are from the early 2000's and still work professionally every day.. 24/25 yrs, they have maxxed out the upgrades, being 32bit...

A 64bit device might last 30 yrs, if all things being equal, and having RAM upgrades, SSD upgrades, screens, makes sense in many markets around the world..

It makes sense for 2 reasons..1: Apple has income from the made for Apple program, and 2nd, it would maybe encourage RAM/SSD companies to innovate, but if Apple are only buy the one type, there is no incentive to innovate..

Just thoughts..

 

[russell_314]

Here in South Africa, tech is stupid expensive, so you have to make do, look I get the Build to Order, BTO, being viable in the US, the UK, Ireland, Western parts of Europe, Japan and Singapore/Australia/New Zealand.. But not in Africa..

As Apple builds laptops with certain keyboards, it would not be that hard to design and sell laptops that are upgradeable over time.. I buy low and upgrade and in a couple years, sell the laptop which for a mac might last 15 yrs, our mac pro's are from the early 2000's and still work professionally every day.. 24/25 yrs, they have maxxed out the upgrades, being 32bit...

A 64bit device might last 30 yrs, if all things being equal, and having RAM upgrades, SSD upgrades, screens, makes sense in many markets around the world..

It makes sense for 2 reasons..1: Apple has income from the made for Apple program, and 2nd, it would maybe encourage RAM/SSD companies to innovate, but if Apple are only buy the one type, there is no incentive to innovate..

Just thoughts..

Do you really think that’s Apple’s target market though? If you’re just looking for hardware, you can buy a desktop or laptop for less than $500.

If it’s a desktop, it would be upgradable but maybe not with the laptop. At that price just buy another. Anything Apple sells is double that price. I know this isn’t South Africa prices, but the amounts are likely going to scale. Apple products are still going to be double the price of lower end non Apple hardware. I don’t think Apple could compete in that space.

I know Apple sells the Mac mini that’s “affordable“ when it comes to Apple products but that’s not upgradable and if you buy it and a higher configuration, it’s no longer affordable. If I was on a tight budget and I needed a computer for practical purposes, it probably wouldn’t be a Mac. I know that will probably upset some Apple loyalists, but Apple products are generally higher end. It’s kind of like Mercedes where it’s an extremely nice car, but if you’re struggling to pay rent and food, it’s probably not going to be on your list of things to buy.

 

[Regulus67]

I doubt it is Apple's fault. If the local currencies drop like a stone.
World trade is still done mostly in US dollars. Good for the Americans, but less so for others who see the value of the national currency falling.

If one had saved in Gold it wouldn't have mattered much how Apple products have increased in price.
Go back 10 years and it is up 113%, more or less. And that is in US dollar!
In that perspective price is not bad

Mac Pro models in priced in oz december, and year.

Mac Pro 5.1 12-core 3,65 oz ($ 6.199), 2012
Mac Pro 6.1 12-core 5,20 oz ($ 6.499), 2013
Mac Pro 7.1 28-core 8,78 oz ($ 12.999), 2019
Mac Pro M2 24-core 4,17 oz ($ 8.499), 2023

As of today October 14, 2024.
A fully specced out Mac Pro is 4.45 oz ($ 11.799)

 

[psg2000]

There are advantages of having these chips permanently attached. Also, if you want to get technical you can upgrade the RAM on a MacBook, but it takes specialized equipment

I don't think apple solder them in for consumers...