You are correct, Apple will not do it for you. People have done it, but mostly just to do it. It’s not practical for the average consumer. Absolutely don’t buy a MacBook, thinking you will be able to upgrade the RAM 😂
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Bye, Bye for now Apple, it has been fun!
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That sentence just does not make sense:
If the RAM is non-upgradable, you cannot pay Apple prices to upgrade it.
You should have written "the main reason people dislike the non-upgradeable RAM is having to pay Apple prices for a high amount of RAM right from the purchase, not yet knowing if they will need it in future."
Paying a very high price right from the beginning hurts more than paying the same price difference two years later for an upgrade.
which will "efficiently" slow down the machine, while accelerating the wear of the SSD.
I would say that it is both. If Apple charged market prices for RAM, very few people would care that they can't upgrade it later. That would, of course, mean I can go from 8 to 32 for like $100 bucks. Which makes it a moot point as that will never happen.
But, as a consequence of the RAM costs being so high, then, yes, people try to buy as little as they think they will need.
Actually, I've been looking at quite a few mini PCs on AliExpress, Banggood, Amazon, Geekbuying, and various YouTube reviews, and I'm finding it quite challenging to choose one to purchase. There are hundreds available, and I only want to buy one to set up a little office corner for my wife. There's no issue with upgrading RAM, SSDs, NVMe drives, and the like. You could easily buy three or four for the price of a basic Mac Mini, and they often come with 16GB, 32GB, or even more RAM. There must be tens of millions of these sold, and some offices are using them as their main PCs.
The way it "should" be is this BTO build to order aka solder in parts is the AIR range of toy laptops...
The upgrade pathway NOT BTO, is called Pro, as in Professional.. not a toy laptop... For adults..
But that is not how Apple think, clearly.. they have issues, like can someone explain the rationale behind the A17 ipad mini not running Final Cut Pro for Ipad..in 2024.. Clearly that was a mistake or did Apple find a box of A17 chips in an office move and needed to flog them before they rotted??
The upgrade pathway NOT BTO, is called Pro, as in Professional.. not a toy laptop... For adults..
But that is not how Apple think, clearly.. they have issues, like can someone explain the rationale behind the A17 ipad mini not running Final Cut Pro for Ipad..in 2024.. Clearly that was a mistake or did Apple find a box of A17 chips in an office move and needed to flog them before they rotted??
The M chip, with its integrated RAM, could pose a problem for users in the future, as they may need to purchase an entirely new device just to upgrade their RAM. Generally, people prefer not to be restricted in their choices, such as upgrading RAM or even the SSD/NVMe drive, unless they are blindly loyal to a particular brand. Additionally, many mini and micro PCs can run Linux, and one can easily buy a barebones PC and customise it to suit their needs. Some of these mini and micro PCs can support three or more monitors. Simply purchasing a device like the Mac Mini to run macOS may not be a sustainable solution in the long run. Moreover, the price of such a mini PC is remarkably low!
Where does Apple mine RAM? Or does Apple harvest from a vine?? I ask as why limit the amount of RAM on a device to 8GB? When that renders the device functionally useless, or at very best barely functional for almost all tasks??
I ask as if it is mined or harvested, then limiting the amount on a device would make sense, you have only so much RAM, and have to share.. But it is made in a factory, from raw materials that could be recycled from old laptops.. So why not install at least 96GB? If Apple control the whole supply chain, going from 8 to 8x that would not cost 8x as much? Why is RAM so stupid expensive? I maybe don't know enough, but something is not adding up..
I ask as if it is mined or harvested, then limiting the amount on a device would make sense, you have only so much RAM, and have to share.. But it is made in a factory, from raw materials that could be recycled from old laptops.. So why not install at least 96GB? If Apple control the whole supply chain, going from 8 to 8x that would not cost 8x as much? Why is RAM so stupid expensive? I maybe don't know enough, but something is not adding up..
Well, you just found the secret of Apple piling up that mountain of money:
Sell RAM worth $15 on the free market for $200 in your walled garden and do the same with SSDs worth $20 for another $200 and name it BTO - upselling perfection and a shareholders dream...
[edit] Forgot: For that to work the best, you'll obviously have to castrate the entry model specification to the lowest possible amount of RAM and SSD storage. 8GB anyone? - hint, hint, hint...
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Not really true, many people on this forum have proven they can stretch the 8gb of ram quite far on their macs. While i don't agree with getting 8gb either, that's not to say it's not useable for the average consumer, especially since the base model MacBook's are by far their best selling sku. They don't exactly get bad reviews either for their performance or you would see it riddled everywhere online. They get ridiculed for only including 8gb but they aren't ridiculed for their performance from your average consumer, that's why they still sell so well lol.
That’s true with the Apple SSDs for some of their machines. Outrageously expensive versus third party SSDs that are equally as fast.
In my machines I have to use Sonnet cards to run different NVME storage, but at least it is possible.
I'm curious to see how this will play out in the real world on the Windows PC side. From what I've read, the Qualcom Snapdragon notebooks are similar to the MacBooks in terms of high-priced upgrades; I haven't heard of RAM or the SSD being upgradable, unless I missed something. Wonder if Intel Lunar Lake notebooks will be the same in those regards?
I ask because in those, we see high energy efficiency, long battery life and cool-running thin notebooks.
On the other hand, on the PC side, there is the option for roomy desktop chassis with internal bays to accommodate SSD drives. Haven't bought one in awhile...I assume one can still DIY 3rd party RAM upgrades after purchase as well?
So on the Windows PC side, users will get a choice. I wonder what the percentages will be on who picks what?
If you had the option for a MacBook Pro twice as thick and double the weight but with user upgradable internal SSD storage, at the same price, would that be a worthwhile tradeoff so you can buy a base 256-gig SSD model and swap out with, oh, say, a 4-terabyte 3rd party option and save several hundred?
...and what else horrible would that Macbook must have, just to make SSD upgradable?
Toshiba Offers Tiny Alternative to Soldered-Down SSDs
The new XFMEXPRESS form factor is an alternative to soldered-down BGA SSDs while allowing for easy removal and upgrades.
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I do resonate with some of the complaints; ultimately if it hits the bottom line of AAPL then they will improve their offering. Good, old fashioned capitalism, can’t beat it 🙂
I would (and did in the distant past) accept a thicker macbook pro that would allow me to upgrade the RAM and SSD for cheap.
And, yes, I have no idea what the percentages are, but I was able to save money on my used Surface Pro 9 and upgrade the ssd myself. And I was able to upgrade my Acer Predator Helios Neo 16" gaming laptop to 32GB RAM and 2TBs of SSD (2 drives--I added 1TB) for like $140.
No way for me to delete this thread but as I posted here in another thread my experiment with Windows only is over and my results were very unexpected for myself. I have to eat my words and say that I have returned to my M2 MBA.
Luckily or maybe not the resale of my M2 MBA plummeted as soon as I was considering selling it. It went so low it didn't make sense selling it. It would make more sense to sell the recent Windows laptops I bought and this is what I have decided to do. There are certain things that really piss me off with my M2 MBA like shiny keys and a redundant power button but those things didn't matter as much as I thought when I went to the other side.
My biggest issue with my Windows laptops was not Windows but the very hardware I was extremely excited to get a 120hz Amoled and OLED screens in 14" and 16" sizes. At a certain point after using these laptops exclusively for a few months I started to notice something that I couldn't ignore. Two, maybe three things really. First was the white balance. In a phone or a tablet the screen is small enough this isn't bothersome but when you have a larger screen it becomes an issue and whites just always looked off. Second was text clarity. It just felt fuzzy compared to past PC LCD IPS screens. Third was brightness even at same nit level my M2 MBA is brighter which I didn't realize until I revived my Mac and started to use it off and on with the PC laptops. That was when I really noticed what was going on seeing both screens next to each other. Eventually I just stopped using the PC's because every time I use them the screens bother me while my M2 MBA screen has been extremely impressive for a simple 60hz IPS panel.
Second thing is heat and thermals. My Meteor lake laptops have good battery life rivaling my M2 MBA but what they fail at is keeping cool. So fans run almost all the time doing mundane tasks. When I stream video the cpu heats up and fans start spinning. I use my laptop on my lap a lot and this becomes an issue. If I am multitasking while streaming things get worse. I get random slowdowns and fan spin ups for no real reason. A lot of bios updates have helped but compared to my 2 year old MBA with no fans there is a huge difference. I can use my M2 MBA streaming and doing a bunch of other things at the same time and no heat and no fans. Battery life is still great. Performance is still the same as the day I bought it.
The last point is something I have not found in any laptop or OS previous to my M2 MBA. I had an M1 Max 16" MBP and in a year I could feel a noticeable slowdown. This is the first laptop I have ever owned where if it has slowed down it has been so infinitesimal I don't perceive it. if this continues to perform the same for the next 3 or so years then this will be a game changer for me. No longer do I need or feel the need to upgrade every year or two, now I can go 3-5 years and get the same level of performance as I did with a shorter purchase cycle. This will reduce waste and save me money. I also don't feel the need to buy a Pro laptop or tablet and the performance metric and longevity is the same.
Yes, Apple charges more upfront and their ssd and ram upgrade costs are prohibitive and an obvious profit center. However, by creating m series chips for their tablets and laptops they have changed the hugest bottleneck in these devices the cpu/gpu. With Intel and previous power pc Apple was always limited by the cpu/gpu and now this has completely gone away with m series and as they progress will be even better. Apple has even stated they want their products to last longer. This is a great thing for everyone.
AI has now been introduced into Windows. They have gone so far as to include a snapshot feature that takes screen shots of everything you do every time you use your PC. The feature was so awful and got so much push back MS recalled their recall. However, there are no real privacy controls in the AI models MS uses. As more AI is used and is doing things we have no idea of in the background I need some assurances. MS offers no meaningful assurances while Apple is using a closed AI model with privacy controls. As much as I just want dumb AI and nothing more in my OS if it is going to be pushed down my throat then I am using Apple. I know I could use Linux but that is not for my needs at this time.
So now I am pretty much going back to Apple. I still have my Android phone. But I don't see a need for Windows and the hardware I have is a problem for me. I may get a 2nd generation Qualcomm Surface laptop when they come out but other than Surface line that is rather costly my M2. MBA is just better for what I do and the Midnight color is pretty sweet too!
Luckily or maybe not the resale of my M2 MBA plummeted as soon as I was considering selling it. It went so low it didn't make sense selling it. It would make more sense to sell the recent Windows laptops I bought and this is what I have decided to do. There are certain things that really piss me off with my M2 MBA like shiny keys and a redundant power button but those things didn't matter as much as I thought when I went to the other side.
My biggest issue with my Windows laptops was not Windows but the very hardware I was extremely excited to get a 120hz Amoled and OLED screens in 14" and 16" sizes. At a certain point after using these laptops exclusively for a few months I started to notice something that I couldn't ignore. Two, maybe three things really. First was the white balance. In a phone or a tablet the screen is small enough this isn't bothersome but when you have a larger screen it becomes an issue and whites just always looked off. Second was text clarity. It just felt fuzzy compared to past PC LCD IPS screens. Third was brightness even at same nit level my M2 MBA is brighter which I didn't realize until I revived my Mac and started to use it off and on with the PC laptops. That was when I really noticed what was going on seeing both screens next to each other. Eventually I just stopped using the PC's because every time I use them the screens bother me while my M2 MBA screen has been extremely impressive for a simple 60hz IPS panel.
Second thing is heat and thermals. My Meteor lake laptops have good battery life rivaling my M2 MBA but what they fail at is keeping cool. So fans run almost all the time doing mundane tasks. When I stream video the cpu heats up and fans start spinning. I use my laptop on my lap a lot and this becomes an issue. If I am multitasking while streaming things get worse. I get random slowdowns and fan spin ups for no real reason. A lot of bios updates have helped but compared to my 2 year old MBA with no fans there is a huge difference. I can use my M2 MBA streaming and doing a bunch of other things at the same time and no heat and no fans. Battery life is still great. Performance is still the same as the day I bought it.
The last point is something I have not found in any laptop or OS previous to my M2 MBA. I had an M1 Max 16" MBP and in a year I could feel a noticeable slowdown. This is the first laptop I have ever owned where if it has slowed down it has been so infinitesimal I don't perceive it. if this continues to perform the same for the next 3 or so years then this will be a game changer for me. No longer do I need or feel the need to upgrade every year or two, now I can go 3-5 years and get the same level of performance as I did with a shorter purchase cycle. This will reduce waste and save me money. I also don't feel the need to buy a Pro laptop or tablet and the performance metric and longevity is the same.
Yes, Apple charges more upfront and their ssd and ram upgrade costs are prohibitive and an obvious profit center. However, by creating m series chips for their tablets and laptops they have changed the hugest bottleneck in these devices the cpu/gpu. With Intel and previous power pc Apple was always limited by the cpu/gpu and now this has completely gone away with m series and as they progress will be even better. Apple has even stated they want their products to last longer. This is a great thing for everyone.
AI has now been introduced into Windows. They have gone so far as to include a snapshot feature that takes screen shots of everything you do every time you use your PC. The feature was so awful and got so much push back MS recalled their recall. However, there are no real privacy controls in the AI models MS uses. As more AI is used and is doing things we have no idea of in the background I need some assurances. MS offers no meaningful assurances while Apple is using a closed AI model with privacy controls. As much as I just want dumb AI and nothing more in my OS if it is going to be pushed down my throat then I am using Apple. I know I could use Linux but that is not for my needs at this time.
So now I am pretty much going back to Apple. I still have my Android phone. But I don't see a need for Windows and the hardware I have is a problem for me. I may get a 2nd generation Qualcomm Surface laptop when they come out but other than Surface line that is rather costly my M2. MBA is just better for what I do and the Midnight color is pretty sweet too!
You didn't understand the paper I cited. The object of the paper was to increase efficiency by reducing the performance penalty of SSD swap associated with insufficient RAM. So there woud be less slow down, not more.
My point in citing that paper was to show that even Apple recognizes 8 GB will be insufficient for many AI applications, which is why they developed this algorithm to reduce the penalty from swapping.
Of course, the better solution is to have enough RAM that you don't need to routinely swap.
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Yes, that is of course the solution, so which led me to ask, where does Apple Inc get it's RAM from, a mine or a vine? Is there a finite amount of RAM for humans to use from 2024 until Sun Death Day? How impossible is it to make a cheap Air with 96GB of RAM that will run FCP for Ipad, or Firefox with more than 2 tabs open?
This has been their business model for a while. If you think purely in terms of what these parts costs Apple, you won't understand Apple's strategy, which is as follows:
1) They offer a (relatively, for Apple) low-price entry-level model for ≈$1000 (and which is freqently discounted). This allows them to sell the entry-level model for an accesible price to a large customer base—especially students, who are the next generation of consumers and thus essential to Apple's future growth.
2) They equip this entry-level model with the minimum amount of RAM and SSD (8 GB/256 GB) that's functional for routine computing. And while this is indeed functional for basic use, it also essentially guarantees that anyone with more serious computing needs will have to upgrade the RAM and storage.
3) They charge a hefty upgrade fee for RAM and storage (multiples more than their OEM costs) so that they can make a hefty profit on any machines sold with the upgrades.
Essentially, the upgraded models subsidize the base models. Thus they can satisfy both of their needs: (1) Bringing lots of new people into the Apple ecosytem; and (2) Maintaining a high profit margin.
When there's a loyal group of buyers, it can do what it wants, especially in the US or Canada. But in Europe and in rest of the world, youngsters won't buy Macs, for they want to play games. Offices are mostly Windows, as they need MS Office. Architects, structural engineers always go for Windows. It is quite interesting that the simple Intel 12th N100 can run AutoCad or ArchiCad without fail.
As someone who appreciates the thinnest and lightest, I'm okay with non-upgradeable RAM in MacBooks, needing to decide upfront what I will need for the expected life of the device. But not so much in Mini/Studio. You're still not getting upgradeable RAM on the Windows side using the same thin and light approach, not to my standard anyway.
Apple has it right, for themselves certainly. Their primary customer is the average consumer, not the professional. Like iPhones, the average consumer can be encouraged to replace their Mac more often than necessary because they need more RAM or a larger SSD or just because a shiny new one is available.
We may be about to see the start of 8GB RAM default falling away and 16GB becoming the norm with Apple. It won't be long before the cries of that not being enough will be heard across MacRumors.
I'm in an era of contentment with Apple right now, and hopefully, that will remain for a while following the litany of failures in recent years pre-M Series.
Apple has it right, for themselves certainly. Their primary customer is the average consumer, not the professional. Like iPhones, the average consumer can be encouraged to replace their Mac more often than necessary because they need more RAM or a larger SSD or just because a shiny new one is available.
We may be about to see the start of 8GB RAM default falling away and 16GB becoming the norm with Apple. It won't be long before the cries of that not being enough will be heard across MacRumors.
I'm in an era of contentment with Apple right now, and hopefully, that will remain for a while following the litany of failures in recent years pre-M Series.
Nope, you have it all wrong. You think my quote I ("the main reason people dislike the non-upgradeable RAM is having to pay Apple prices for it.") refers to uncertainty about future RAM needs. It doesn't.
And the reason you got it wrong is because you entirely ignored the context in which it was written, and misinterpreted it based on that ignorance.
Here's my more detailed post about this, i.e., the context. It clearly indicates the issue I was describing was not uncertaintly about future needs (your misinterpretation), but costs to purchase enough RAM for current needs:
The importance of context in language is pretty basic. It's amazing that you're trying to do a gotcha about my language when you don't even understand such basics. Then again, this is the internet....
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The RAM is not aftermarket; it is entirely new and sourced from reputable manufacturers. With the M chips, the RAM is integrated into the chip itself, meaning it cannot be replaced. Consequently, upgrading the RAM necessitates purchasing a new device, which, in the long run, may not be in the best interest of the consumer—provided, of course, that the consumer is aware of their rights.
Seriously? Is **everyone** going to misinterpret what I write?? Dude, I never said Apple's RAM is aftermarket. I was simply referring to the fact that, back when the RAM on Macs was upgradeable, the consumer had the option of buying aftermarket RAM instead of Apple RAM (thus saving the consumer a lot of money, while reducing Apple's profit). Since RAM is no longer upgradeable, the consumer now has to pay Apple prices to increase the RAM beyond the base values.
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You keep repeating "aftermarket." The consumer can always purchase entirely new RAM chips.