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spiderman0616

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I think it’s a mistake to clump iOS with ipadOS in this situation. The iPhone market is huge, but we’re talking about the iPad market, which is much smaller. How it measures up against the Mac market, I couldn’t tell you. But regardless, as others have said, the key difference is people expect to pay money for Mac productivity applications—not so much for iPad. Even the name itself “app” implies a truncated version of the fully-featured application. Mac applications are called “apps” now too, but nevertheless, it’s already engrained in people’s minds that iPad apps are free or cheap.

Other issues lie in the iOS App Store. The 30% cut, lack of flexibility for free trials and upgrade pricing, finicky review process—these are all reasons why a lot of Mac developers avoid the Mac App Store and opt to sell to customers directly. With iPad apps, they can only sell through the iOS App Store and are therefore completely under Apple’s control.

There may be technical reasons as well. ipadOS is a much more locked down OS than macOS. I’m not too knowledgable myself, but I imagine a developer might run into issues trying to make an iPad app do everything a Mac app does, especially when it comes to files and background processes.
Sadly, I'm starting to believe this to be accurate. I hate it, but here we are. Now, the pro apps that were BUILT for iPad, like LumaFusion for example, they are more or less fully featured and fully support the Magic Keyboard. But I thought we'd have hundreds of those types of apps for iPad Pro by now. We're now almost 6 years into the existence of the iPad Pro line and I can name probably less than 20 of that class of app made specifically for iPad/iPad Pro.

It's not that the iPad isn't capable or powerful. It totally is. I lived full time on one for years up until late 2020, and I felt like it was my dream computer form factor that I'd been hoping for for decades. But for the second time since 2010, my workflow outgrew iPadOS, and the M1 MacBook Air was a perfect opportunity to correct that problem.

It's really sad. I love the iPad. I'm sure I'll be back on one someday.
 
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subjonas

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Feb 10, 2014
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Sadly, I'm starting to believe this to be accurate. I hate it, but here we are. Now, the pro apps that were BUILT for iPad, like LumaFusion for example, they are more or less fully featured and fully support the Magic Keyboard. But I thought we'd have hundreds of those types of apps for iPad Pro by now. We're now almost 6 years into the existence of the iPad Pro line and I can name probably less than 20 of that class of app made specifically for iPad/iPad Pro.

It's not that the iPad isn't capable or powerful. It totally is. I lived full time on one for years up until late 2020, and I felt like it was my dream computer form factor that I'd been hoping for for decades. But for the second time since 2010, my workflow outgrew iPadOS, and the M1 MacBook Air was a perfect opportunity to correct that problem.

It's really sad. I love the iPad. I'm sure I'll be back on one someday.
Who knows, many things could change, possibly quickly, especially if courts continue influencing the App Store rules. The only things that may not ever change are the more fundamental technical aspects of ipadsOS like sandboxing and some of the multitasking limitations. If those are problematic for one’s workflow, it’s probably best to get cozy with Mac.
 

MRISX

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Oct 2, 2016
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don’t think so, but I just bought a cheap keyboard and mouse to try to use it more but still mainly on the personal/fun side, not work related yet.
 
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secretk

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.Other issues lie in the iOS App Store. The 30% cut, lack of flexibility for free trials and upgrade pricing, finicky review process—these are all reasons why a lot of Mac developers avoid the Mac App Store and opt to sell to customers directly. With iPad apps, they can only sell through the iOS App Store and are therefore completely under Apple’s control.
I as an end user also have a bit of issues when it comes to the lack of free trials. Apps like Procreate, Lumafusion, Affinity have no free trial. I had to pay right away. I definitely spent a lot of time watching YT videos first before purchasing them. The thing is I won't do this for any app you know. It would be for few selected ones as I do not have that much time. And the rest I would just ignore.
There may be technical reasons as well. ipadOS is a much more locked down OS than macOS. I’m not too knowledgable myself, but I imagine a developer might run into issues trying to make an iPad app do everything a Mac app does, especially when it comes to files and background processes.
Yeah, as a Developer let me tell you - some Developers for sure enjoy Swift and iOS programming, others hate it. Apple has built something good with Xcode and the integrated Development tools but you need to own a Mac to do Swift programming. Not every Developer wants to go through that. Developers like the variety and freedom to use different programming languages. Having to purchase a Mac to even play around and Explore with Swift is off-putting. Then a lot of Developers do not enjoy the nature of iOS and how closed off as a system is and how less they have freedom to affect it in terms of app behavior. Then Swift in itself is rather too specific language and if you spend a lot of time with it as a professional, you get out of touch with other programming languages and Developers in general want to be able to switch jobs easily.
 
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spiderman0616

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Who knows, many things could change, possibly quickly, especially if courts continue influencing the App Store rules. The only things that may not ever change are the more fundamental technical aspects of ipadsOS like sandboxing and some of the multitasking limitations. If those are problematic for one’s workflow, it’s probably best to get cozy with Mac.
I was already cozy with Mac, but only as my machine I use for my job. I have had Macs on and off for years. But I found the M1 machines compelling enough that my iPad Pro didn't seem sufficient anymore. Weird how a "simple" CPU update changed my thinking, huh?
 
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BigMcGuire

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After work, the last thing I want to do is ... be on the computer because I spend all day on the computer. I find my iPad to be a great device to use away from the computer. Reading, socializing, youtube'ing, whatever. Outside of work, it's been my most used device. Despite that, hooking it up to my external 4k monitor with a bluetooth mouse/keyboard has not been terribly great - but if I didn't already have a MBP, it could work.

I do enough reading that I can't imagine life without an iPad. I tried reading on my phone for awhile but... that larger screen is just too attractive.
 
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spiderman0616

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After work, the last thing I want to do is ... be on the computer because I spend all day on the computer. I find my iPad to be a great device to use away from the computer. Reading, socializing, youtube'ing, whatever. Outside of work, it's been my most used device. Despite that, hooking it up to my external 4k monitor with a bluetooth mouse/keyboard has not been terribly great - but if I didn't already have a MBP, it could work.

I do enough reading that I can't imagine life without an iPad. I tried reading on my phone for awhile but... that larger screen is just too attractive.
I think the just base model iPad is a great value for these purposes, and I am so tempted to just grab one of those, but a) I know I won't use it as much as I think I will, and b) I want the home button gone first. After using iPad Pro and iPhone for years with no home button, I can't go back. I could MAYBE deal with it on a mini, but I'd rather they unify the design language across the whole lineup before I buy back in to iPad.

EDIT: iPad mini is one of my favorite products in the lineup, but I have a crisis of confidence in ever buying one again, because I can never tell if Apple even cares about it that much anymore. If they change the design so that all iPads look like iPad Pros, including the mini, then I'll know they're bringing the mini along for the ride officially.
 
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FranApple

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I think the just base model iPad is a great value for these purposes, and I am so tempted to just grab one of those, but a) I know I won't use it as much as I think I will, and b) I want the home button gone first. After using iPad Pro and iPhone for years with no home button, I can't go back. I could MAYBE deal with it on a mini, but I'd rather they unify the design language across the whole lineup before I buy back in to iPad.

EDIT: iPad mini is one of my favorite products in the lineup, but I have a crisis of confidence in ever buying one again, because I can never tell if Apple even cares about it that much anymore. If they change the design so that all iPads look like iPad Pros, including the mini, then I'll know they're bringing the mini along for the ride officially.

I hear you on all of this because I was in the same boat. I got an M1 MacBook and was happy as a clam.

After a month I realized that the M1 MacBook just isn't nearly as portable as an iPad. It's not just weight, it's the overall footprint. iPads feel more "toss-able" and are so much easier and more fun to use for couch computing. Since I was using my M1 MacBook primarily for couch computing to begin with, I just got an iPad Air and I've been much happier.

Now, I do have an M1 Mac mini which is my main desktop computer so it's not as if I'm trying to use my M1 MacBook as my main computer. If I only had one computer in the house, I'd definitely need for it to be a full fledged computer and not an iPad.
 

BigMcGuire

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I hear you on all of this because I was in the same boat. I got an M1 MacBook and was happy as a clam.

After a month I realized that the M1 MacBook just isn't nearly as portable as an iPad. It's not just weight, it's the overall footprint. iPads feel more "toss-able" and are so much easier and more fun to use for couch computing. Since I was using my M1 MacBook primarily for couch computing to begin with, I just got an iPad Air and I've been much happier.

Now, I do have an M1 Mac mini which is my main desktop computer so it's not as if I'm trying to use my M1 MacBook as my main computer. If I only had one computer in the house, I'd definitely need for it to be a full fledged computer and not an iPad.
This is basically what I did. I had an iPad identity crisis this year.

Sold my 2018 iPad Pro 11' earlier this year to family. Used that $ to get a mini 5, loved it but eventually returned that for a decked out maxed cellular 11' Pro... then returned that for an Air (half the cost of the Pro).

I'm happy with this for now. I do have a 13' MBP so that kind of made the decked out 11' Pro too much.

I'm surprised how 11' Pro like the Air 4 is for my usage. Since I mostly use it for reading, I'm very very happy with it.

If I didn't have a 13' MBP I'd go full out on an iPad I think. Maybe in a year or two?
 
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secretk

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After work, the last thing I want to do is ... be on the computer because I spend all day on the computer. I find my iPad to be a great device to use away from the computer. Reading, socializing, youtube'ing, whatever.
I am now in this between stage. If I am on a my desk I use my laptop for those things. I try to use the iPad for watching youtube in bed. I cannot do socializing with the iPad in bed as my socializing is basically texting in Skype. I do prefer the ergonomics of the laptop for that.
Outside of work, it's been my most used device. Despite that, hooking it up to my external 4k monitor with a bluetooth mouse/keyboard has not been terribly great - but if I didn't already have a MBP, it could work.
I do not even try to hook my iPad to an external monitor as I use my external monitor for work - hook up the work laptop to it. Plus the experience is not what I would like.
I do enough reading that I can't imagine life without an iPad. I tried reading on my phone for awhile but... that larger screen is just too attractive.
Same. I would not do reading anymore on a laptop you know. I want do it only on an iPad.

That being said I must the weirdest person out there. I found a way to break Notability twice. I had this intense SAFe training this week. Basically 4 hours a day 4 days. I took notes in Notability but also recorded the audio. So it was like 11 or 12 hours of audio for one Note file and it seems that Notabilty cannot deal with this very well as it killed itself twice on me. Luckily it managed to recover the video or that's what it claims. I will check this weekend if this is the case.
 
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spiderman0616

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I am now in this between stage. If I am on a my desk I use my laptop for those things. I try to use the iPad for watching youtube in bed. I cannot do socializing with the iPad in bed as my socializing is basically texting in Skype. I do prefer the ergonomics of the laptop for that.

I do not even try to hook my iPad to an external monitor as I use my external monitor for work - hook up the work laptop to it. Plus the experience is not what I would like.

Same. I would not do reading anymore on a laptop you know. I want do it only on an iPad.

That being said I must the weirdest person out there. I found a way to break Notability twice. I had this intense SAFe training this week. Basically 4 hours a day 4 days. I took notes in Notability but also recorded the audio. So it was like 11 or 12 hours of audio for one Note file and it seems that Notabilty cannot deal with this very well as it killed itself twice on me. Luckily it managed to recover the video or that's what it claims. I will check this weekend if this is the case.
Just out of curiosity, what is "SAFe"?

NM--Google is my friend.
 

BigMcGuire

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It is Scaled Agile Framework for Enterprise - it is a popular software development process. Most IT companies now use this process - Spotify, Google, I assume even Apple use it in one or another form.
And it counts for PMP units too! Nice! - We use Agile here as well in our development office. ---- Noted about 11+ hours of audio on Notability - I think my longest recording was 4 hours. That's a lot of skill to pay attention that long :).
 
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secretk

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And it counts for PMP units too! Nice! - We use Agile here as well in our development office. ---- Noted about 11+ hours of audio on Notability - I think my longest recording was 4 hours. That's a lot of skill to pay attention that long :).
Yeah, in general if a company moves to agile it is recommended all teams to go to agile. Like not just DEV teams, but also sales or HR.

Man I not just had to pay attention to 11 hours of recording. The training is interactive as we did PI (program increment) simulation game and I was the facilitator in my team so I had to not just pay attention to the training and learn new things, but also facilitate simulated story sizing, planning, capacity definition and all that. And then present to the whole group. Now I need to take an exam so I hope that the notes and the audio will help me.
 
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BigMcGuire

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Yeah, in general if a company moves to agile it is recommended all teams to go to agile. Like not just DEV teams, but also sales or HR.

Man I not just had to pay attention to 11 hours of recording. The training is interactive as we did PI (program increment) simulation game and I was the facilitator in my team so I had to not just pay attention to the training and learn new things, but also facilitate simulated story sizing, planning, capacity definition and all that. And then present to the whole group. Now I need to take an exam so I hope that the notes and the audio will be handy.
Good luck !!! Those exams are doozies but can do nice things for paychecks :)

Yeah, I can't imagine life without Notability for taking notes at work/classes like this.
 

secretk

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Good luck !!! Those exams are doozies but can do nice things for paychecks :)
Thanks! Hope so!
Yeah, I can't imagine life without Notability for taking notes at work/classes like this.
Right? I mean I am no longer taking classes. Like 11 years passed that but I do take some trainings through work and having the possibility to take notes on the iPad with the pencil is awesome. I really enjoy it.
 
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MRISX

macrumors member
Oct 2, 2016
56
18
I think the just base model iPad is a great value for these purposes, and I am so tempted to just grab one of those, but a) I know I won't use it as much as I think I will, and b) I want the home button gone first. After using iPad Pro and iPhone for years with no home button, I can't go back. I could MAYBE deal with it on a mini, but I'd rather they unify the design language across the whole lineup before I buy back in to iPad.

EDIT: iPad mini is one of my favorite products in the lineup, but I have a crisis of confidence in ever buying one again, because I can never tell if Apple even cares about it that much anymore. If they change the design so that all iPads look like iPad Pros, including the mini, then I'll know they're bringing the mini along for the ride officially.

I get it if you don't like it due to the aesthetics of the design, but functionally is not that bad since you still have a lot of the same gestures and actually present couple advantages if you ever need it..
 

BigMcGuire

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I get it if you don't like it due to the aesthetics of the design, but functionally is not that bad since you still have a lot of the same gestures and actually present couple advantages if you ever need it..
The only thing that was a dealbreaker for me with the base iPad was the reflectivity of light on the screen. It was almost 2x as bad as the mini 5. At least it seemed that way to me. :p
 
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spiderman0616

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I get it if you don't like it due to the aesthetics of the design, but functionally is not that bad since you still have a lot of the same gestures and actually present couple advantages if you ever need it..
Yeah, for sure--when I help my kids with their iPads, I always have to use the gestures because I can't remember what you're supposed to do with the home button--not even exaggerating. It's been years since I've had a personal Apple device with a home button.
 

Apple_Robert

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Sep 21, 2012
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So with the new ipadOS are we at a point for most people that an iPad can replace a MacBook or laptop. Wanted to get some opinions.
For some people, iPadOS has helped them use their iPad as their primary device. I think that that segment of users is in the minority at this point. I think iPadOS needs to mature a lot more before we see the iPad become more mainstream for primary work use.
 

spiderman0616

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For some people, iPadOS has helped them use their iPad as their primary device. I think that that segment of users is in the minority at this point. I think iPadOS needs to mature a lot more before we see the iPad become more mainstream for primary work use.
I think the way you worded that is key. iPadOS paired with a Magic Keyboard will HELP you use the iPad as your main computer, and if you're a regular user of the more buried power features, you can trick it to do all the other stuff it won't do right out of the box. But for the iPad Pro to take over mind share from the Mac or PC in a truly meaningful way, it would have to be easier to find and use all those power features. My 67 year old dad is not tech savvy at all, but he totally understands how Finder works--nothing more straightforward than your standard file/folder hierarchy. It may be dated and boring at this point, but there is usually no confusion on how to use it. I also appreciate how Apple continues refining Finder to have more and more helpful and useful features. I don't use most of them, but I like knowing that they're there just in case.

Compare that to Files for iPadOS. I know how to use Files. I use it daily, and I can go back and forth between Files and Finder all day long if I need to. I doubt my parents have ever opened Files on their iPad Pro or even know it's there or what it's for if they do know it's there. They just don't think of their iPad as that kind of machine.

I've been trying to figure out for years why this has been such a tough hill to climb for Apple, and I think I've finally come to a conclusion: Macs and PCs are still uber popular because once the "home computer" became an affordable fixture in every home, we all grew and matured with their OSes. I don't know many people my age who didn't have a beige box PC or Mac in their homes in the 90s. In the year 2021 I don't know many people that don't have a smartphone. Both are paradigms that most of us got to learn from square one. So many people out there got to learn and grow from "system 1" of all those devices. This is why the laptop and desktop PC and Mac are still so pervasive.

Compare that to the iPad. Steve Jobs told us in 2010 that the iPad is that perfect device to sit between the iPhone and the Mac. You sit on the couch with it and read, you flip through your photos on that big beautiful screen, you watch Netflix in bed without processor heat burning your leg hairs off, the list goes on. The need for that kind of device clearly became significantly less as iPhones got bigger and Macs got thinner, lighter, and more portable. Then 5 years later, the iPad Pro comes in as a really souped up version of the standard iPad. Eventually we got iPadOS, which was a move I LOVED. But the features that transformed iOS for iPad into iPadOS were brand new, not super discoverable or easy to learn at first by the average user, and not even always heavily promoted by Apple other than marketing on their website and TV commercials showcasing the Apple Pencil.

This isn't a knock on the iPad or modern day Apple by any means. I love both and probably always will. I think it's more of a criticism of Steve Jobs for not realizing that if he wanted the iPad to reach the kind of ubiquity that the PC and Mac enjoy, he needed to start planting these seeds from day 1. Maybe we should have started from a more iPadOS kind of system and grown from there. Instead I sometimes think Apple is still fighting really hard to convince "regular" users that the iPad can replace their laptop or desktop, and I think the only real way they're going to do that is if the iPad and MacBook morph together into a completely new kind of device that levels the entire playing field. I'm guessing we're at least 3 years away from that point.
 

Apple_Robert

Contributor
Sep 21, 2012
35,683
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In a van down by the river
I think the way you worded that is key. iPadOS paired with a Magic Keyboard will HELP you use the iPad as your main computer, and if you're a regular user of the more buried power features, you can trick it to do all the other stuff it won't do right out of the box. But for the iPad Pro to take over mind share from the Mac or PC in a truly meaningful way, it would have to be easier to find and use all those power features. My 67 year old dad is not tech savvy at all, but he totally understands how Finder works--nothing more straightforward than your standard file/folder hierarchy. It may be dated and boring at this point, but there is usually no confusion on how to use it. I also appreciate how Apple continues refining Finder to have more and more helpful and useful features. I don't use most of them, but I like knowing that they're there just in case.

Compare that to Files for iPadOS. I know how to use Files. I use it daily, and I can go back and forth between Files and Finder all day long if I need to. I doubt my parents have ever opened Files on their iPad Pro or even know it's there or what it's for if they do know it's there. They just don't think of their iPad as that kind of machine.

I've been trying to figure out for years why this has been such a tough hill to climb for Apple, and I think I've finally come to a conclusion: Macs and PCs are still uber popular because once the "home computer" became an affordable fixture in every home, we all grew and matured with their OSes. I don't know many people my age who didn't have a beige box PC or Mac in their homes in the 90s. In the year 2021 I don't know many people that don't have a smartphone. Both are paradigms that most of us got to learn from square one. So many people out there got to learn and grow from "system 1" of all those devices. This is why the laptop and desktop PC and Mac are still so pervasive.

Compare that to the iPad. Steve Jobs told us in 2010 that the iPad is that perfect device to sit between the iPhone and the Mac. You sit on the couch with it and read, you flip through your photos on that big beautiful screen, you watch Netflix in bed without processor heat burning your leg hairs off, the list goes on. The need for that kind of device clearly became significantly less as iPhones got bigger and Macs got thinner, lighter, and more portable. Then 5 years later, the iPad Pro comes in as a really souped up version of the standard iPad. Eventually we got iPadOS, which was a move I LOVED. But the features that transformed iOS for iPad into iPadOS were brand new, not super discoverable or easy to learn at first by the average user, and not even always heavily promoted by Apple other than marketing on their website and TV commercials showcasing the Apple Pencil.

This isn't a knock on the iPad or modern day Apple by any means. I love both and probably always will. I think it's more of a criticism of Steve Jobs for not realizing that if he wanted the iPad to reach the kind of ubiquity that the PC and Mac enjoy, he needed to start planting these seeds from day 1. Maybe we should have started from a more iPadOS kind of system and grown from there. Instead I sometimes think Apple is still fighting really hard to convince "regular" users that the iPad can replace their laptop or desktop, and I think the only real way they're going to do that is if the iPad and MacBook morph together into a completely new kind of device that levels the entire playing field. I'm guessing we're at least 3 years away from that point.
You raised some very good points.

With kids today, (get off my lawn you kids) I think most of them use their phone as they're 'one for all." And unless they are going to or in college, they don't see a need to have an expensive iPad that they would need to carry around.

The other group you mentioned growing up with a Mac or Windows PC is the smaller of the two groups. With this group, the battle is primarily mental. And seeing how iPadOS is still lagging behind the power of the hardware, there isn't much incentive for a lot of people to get an iPad. Add to that the power features mentioned not being readily apparent, and the iPad experience isn't as pleasurable as it should be for a lot of people.

With the birth of the M series Macs, it is going to be even harder for Apple to sell kids and middle-aged+ people on the iPad, so long as Apple continues to spec bump iPadOS.
 

BigMcGuire

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You raised some very good points.

With kids today, (get off my lawn you kids) I think most of them use their phone as they're 'one for all." And unless they are going to or in college, they don't see a need to have an expensive iPad that they would need to carry around.

The other group you mentioned growing up with a Mac or Windows PC is the smaller of the two groups. With this group, the battle is primarily mental. And seeing how iPadOS is still lagging behind the power of the hardware, there isn't much incentive for a lot of people to get an iPad. Add to that the power features mentioned not being readily apparent, and the iPad experience isn't as pleasurable as it should be for a lot of people.

With the birth of the M series Macs, it is going to be even harder for Apple to sell kids and middle-aged+ people on the iPad, so long as Apple continues to spec bump iPadOS.
Yep. The last computer science class I took 3-4 years ago I was surprised how many kids were using their phones to do the online homework and online quizzes. It was the majority. Lol
 
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MRISX

macrumors member
Oct 2, 2016
56
18
Yeah, for sure--when I help my kids with their iPads, I always have to use the gestures because I can't remember what you're supposed to do with the home button--not even exaggerating. It's been years since I've had a personal Apple device with a home button.
I hear you, it can get challenging at some point.
 

secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
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Thanks! Hope so!

Right? I mean I am no longer taking classes. Like 11 years passed that but I do take some trainings through work and having the possibility to take notes on the iPad with the pencil is awesome. I really enjoy it.

So shameless plug on my side. I just got certified - 91 % success, took me 30 minutes to take the exam. We are given 90 for 45 questions but I did not need that much time.

I have to admit that I did not find the time to listen to that audio recording in Notability but I did use the iPad to go through the workbook (huge PDF file of 750 pages) and take additional notes with the pencil, as well to highlight. Basically my studying and exam preparation was done 100 % on the iPad.

I did take the exam itself on my computer though.
 
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