MP 7,1 Can't decide between 7.1 and PC purchase!

[deconstruct60]

notebookcheck made an article about

This one???

Astounding M1X multi-core performance estimates have the Apple Silicon playing in the same ballpark as the Intel Core i9-10900K and Ryzen 7 5800X

Estimated multi-core performance results for the expected M1X processor have the upcoming Apple Silicon taking on power-hungry desktop rivals such as the Intel Core i9-10900K and AMD Ryzen 7 5800X. Speculated Geekbench 5 and Cinebench R23 scores for the Apple M1X chip are based on it offering...

www.notebookcheck.net

From article.

"... result would actually position the Apple M1X just -4.40% behind the 12-core Ryzen 9 5900X. Miani stresses that he does not believe the Apple Silicon will be ready to take on such a Ryzen 9 competitor just yet ..."

The article has an estimated score for the M1X as being GBv5 Multicore of 13586. The GBv5 Multicore score for the Xeon W-3245 is around 14261

Intel Xeon W-3245 - Benchmark, Test and Specs

Intel Xeon W-3245 - Benchmark, Geekbench 5, Cinebench R20, Cinebench R23, Cinebench R15 and FP32 iGPU (GFLOPS) benchmark results

www.cpu-monkey.com

So the estimate is approximately -5% off of the W-3245 mark. ( and probably even further behind a W-3335 (16 core Ice Lake) ). Given that the latest 12 core Ryzen is ahead also, that is has a good chance of being right.

The 12 core ( W-3235 ) is 12996 (+5% to 'M1X") . So the 8 and 12 core would probably get beat. However, this "16 core beat" meme is likely an overreach. ( and a substantially even bigger over reach for the W-3333 at higher clock , higher IPC , higher bandwidth , and more optimized SIMD foundation. ). I suspect there is a bit of "telephone game" here where '12' is being mutated into '16' as the story is passed around. Or there are folks throwing in a "2x" mulitplier as their SWAG guess multiplier; which this article doesn't do.

The leaks so far is that Apple is putting more "weight" on bumping up GPU cores than CPU cores. There is a window where if not asked to walk and chew gum at the same time ( just do CPU and almost zero GPU work) that it will be in the same ballpark. But on tasks where the CPU cores are going to have to share with bandwidth hungry GPU/NPU/etc cores, it probably won't pan out as well.


This "1.77" estimate also presumes four E cores which decent chance not going to get. Apple swapping two Ps for two Es wouldn't be a full "addition" to the mix . Get to 8 P but just 2 E; so only 2 "full" adds. [ Again Apple having higher priority on taking out dGPUs and allocating more die space to non CPU cores. This showed up in A15 . Additional GPU core and elsewhere in the SoC, but not tons of movement on the P cores. ] There isn't a good foundation for the 2x ( or bigger) multiplier SWAG with Apple in part doing a "swap".


P.S. Apple more than doubling up on the GPU add rate while keeping the memory channel add rate still at 2x , puts the 3070 performance claims to doubt. Once Apple gets into the zone where adding GPU cores faster than bandwidth then the performance estimates are get more "hand wavy". More cache can help in some context but won't in others. Once highly oversubscribe the memory bus performance tends to go sublinear ( less slope of '1' ).

 

[blackadde]

Now I'm just a humble idiot, but the 3070 has a die size of ~400mm^2 and consumes ~200 watts all on it's lonesome, so claims that Apple will be able to stuff performance of that nature into a single SoC are pretty suspect to my uninformed mind.

 

[mattspace]

Now I'm just a humble idiot, but the 3070 has a die size of ~400mm^2 and consumes ~200 watts all on it's lonesome, so claims that Apple will be able to stuff performance of that nature into a single SoC are pretty suspect to my uninformed mind.

I'm wary of any ARM GPU performance claims, insofar as they always seem to end up being compute acceleration metrics. We don't get claims of how many displays of what resolution, or how big and complex a 3D viewport can be driven etc - I mean you look at the current iPads running macOS M1 Macs, Apple makes all sorts of claims for their Graphical prowess, but they're limited to 2 displays, and their "console quality" graphics are more or less last generation when it comes to 3D viewport performance.

 

[kvic]

Funny that someone mentioned BMW cars here. I have owned quite a few cars, including a brand new BMW 7-series. It was the most unreliable car I have ever owned! Is that meant to be like Mac Pro or Windows Desktop?

I am about to retire my MP 6,1. I bought it when it first came out in early 2014. It is still very reliable. But its computing power is not up to par anymore. I am not sure longevity is an useful benchmark for computers, because a good PC can last this long as well. (My previous Dell desktop also last a long time.) IMO, the needs for more computing power are important reasons to upgrade.

I just bought a prebuilt gaming desktop as the successor of my MP 6,1. It is still within the 30-day return period. But I am going to keep it. It is just as good as my MP 6,1, but with much more power, from my initial assessment.

First, it is as quiet as my MP6,1. (What a relief!) It has an AMD R9 5959x 16-core processor which is more powerful than MP7,1's 16-core Xeon processor. It has a Nvidia 3080Ti GPU card which is 80% more powerful than MP7,1's most powerful and most expensive GPU card, Radeon Pro W6900X. Note that W6900X is a $5,600 option for MP7,1. (Hello Apple???)

The worst part of Apple computers is the lack of Nvidia GPU option, from my perspective. The whole Machine Learning/Deep Learning world centers around CUDA. The use of AMD GPU and M1 GPU are non-starters for professionals in this area. I am a data scientist by trade and an amateur photographer. From my viewpoint, Apple has focused on iPhone and stuff. We'll see if they want to invest on the professional computing market. Maybe I'll get a MP9,1 in the next round?

Which prebuilt gaming desktop is it?

Some pictures/links would be nice.

Love seeing a teardown too. Just like I enjoy watching the internals of HP Z over and over again. What a refreshing experience from the typical Apple stuff. lol

 

[vett93]

Which prebuilt gaming desktop is it?

Some pictures/links would be nice.

Love seeing a teardown too. Just like I enjoy watching the internals of HP Z over and over again. What a refreshing experience from the typical Apple stuff. lol

This is the prebuilt I just bought: https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categ...CORSAIR-ONE-Compact-Gaming-PC/p/CS-9040012-NA

A review of a lower spec unit from Tom's Hardware can be found here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-one-a200

 

[mitchino]

I'm bringing this thread back to life, as it's decision time for me, mac or PC. Deadline to purchase is in a few days. I have just got a quote for a 7.1 and a custom built PC.

Mac Specs
16 core Xeon
32GB RAM
256GB System Drive
6800x Duo

Price £11472

PC Specs
64 Core Threadripper
128GB RAM
512GB M2System Drive
2 x Nvidia 3090

Price £11289

My thoughts:

In the light of the recent M1X announcement, I'm thinking it might be a dumb time to buy a 7.1. Maybe I should get the PC now, and then see what the next Mac Pro brings, hopefully I could sell the PC at some point to pay for the Apple Silicon Mac Pro when it comes. Maybe that's a better bet than trying to sell the 7.1 when the new Mac Pro arrives. Which one will hold its value best? I'm also thinking of a time when Octane (my main 3d rendering package) will support mixed Mac and PC rendering, at that point I could just use a Mac Mini M1 as my front end and the PC as the powerhouse. Finding it very hard to make the jump though!

 

[ddhhddhh2]

For anyone considering buying a Mac Pro at this time, I would recommend watching this video before making a decision.

16" M1 Max MacBook Pro vs $15,000 Mac Pro: Embarrassing..

Unless your needs are extreme, specific, or require a very special pci device, I can't find a reason not to recommend the M1 Max/Pro.

Of course, it's your money, and if you're willing to customize your Mac Pro now, I'm sure Tim's yacht fund would appreciate it even more.

I would also like to remind, sometimes people will compare the M1 Max/Pro with the latest Intel or AMD run scores.

However, in fact, it's easy to overlook the fact that the M1 max/Pro has a separate multimedia processor, the efficiency core, which needs to be taken into account.

 

[th0masp]

or require a very special pci device

Like a ... GPU?

 

[mitchino]

I'm not deciding between a M1 Max and a Mac Pro, I'm deciding between a Mac Pro and a PC. I need the high powered GPUs.

 

[Romanesco]

For anyone considering buying a Mac Pro at this time, I would recommend watching this video before making a decision.

16" M1 Max MacBook Pro vs $15,000 Mac Pro: Embarrassing..

Unless your needs are extreme, specific, or require a very special pci device, I can't find a reason not to recommend the M1 Max/Pro.

Of course, it's your money, and if you're willing to customize your Mac Pro now, I'm sure Tim's yacht fund would appreciate it even more.

I would also like to remind, sometimes people will compare the M1 Max/Pro with the latest Intel or AMD run scores.

However, in fact, it's easy to overlook the fact that the M1 max/Pro has a separate multimedia processor, the efficiency core, which needs to be taken into account.

There’s a consistent theme with their YouTube channel — content made for the sake of monetization. Their themes are tailored to what the customers find sensational, all in the name of making it go viral and collecting the buck. It’s disrespectful towards both the (Apple) brand and the customer. They don’t even put enough research into it.

What’s more concerning with this particular video is that he doesn’t even understand why in specific benchmarks, the M1 Max is superior to his own 12-core Xeon/ Vega II Mac Pro 2019. If he had taken the time to study, he would’ve realized that the M1 Max comes with hardware-accelerated H.264, HEVC, ProRes, and ProRes RAW, video/ ProRes decode/ encode engine, and a neural engine. It’s a highly optimized hardware tool (compared to the raw power of the Mac Pro 2019) that would obviously win in benchmarks tailored for those use case scenarios.

Now, to the OP’s point, I would not recommend going with the Mac Pro 2019 at this point. Yes, you have a decent configuration spec’d up (maybe bump up the SSD, though), but for the price, it won’t match up to the PC equivalent. I’m on a 16-core Xeon/ Vega II Duo 64 GB and 384 GB RAM Mac Pro 2019, and it has not lived up to equivalently priced PC alternatives.

Grab the PC, make the buck, then buy the AS Mac Pro 2022 for the superior user experience whenever that comes out.

 

[The_Interloper]

Got to agree with @Romanesco on this one. That PC will annihilate the Mac Pro in most workflows with those specs. The 7,1 is a severely overpriced vanity purchase at this point and not a smart one at that.

Mac/Intel is a burning platform I'm afraid. Monterey already demonstrates where Apple's intentions lie - there are plenty of missing features for Intel Macs they still sell.

I got badly stung with the PowerPC to Intel transition and would advise anyone to think very carefully about spending any cash, never mind £11.5k, on an Intel Mac now unless you have a very specific need for it.

 

[DFP1989]

I'm not deciding between a M1 Max and a Mac Pro, I'm deciding between a Mac Pro and a PC. I need the high powered GPUs.

If raw performance is what your after, there isn’t much of a comparison between the two options you’ve listed. The PC is obviously far superior.

I had a Mac Pro 7,1 for a bit over year (16c, 96GB RAM, W5700X), and while it was a great piece of hardware, the lack of hardware decoders for the HEVC footage I use in a lot of edits was a significant issue.

Sold it for about 10% less than I paid a few weeks ago to pickup an M1 Max (10c, 64GB, 32c GPU) and couldn’t be happier. Far better performance in my workflow, but obviously YMMV.

 

[blackadde]

I'm bringing this thread back to life, as it's decision time for me, mac or PC. Deadline to purchase is in a few days. I have just got a quote for a 7.1 and a custom built PC.

Mac Specs
16 core Xeon
32GB RAM
256GB System Drive
6800x Duo

Price £11472

PC Specs
64 Core Threadripper
128GB RAM
512GB M2System Drive
2 x Nvidia 3090

Price £11289

My thoughts:

In the light of the recent M1X announcement, I'm thinking it might be a dumb time to buy a 7.1. Maybe I should get the PC now, and then see what the next Mac Pro brings, hopefully I could sell the PC at some point to pay for the Apple Silicon Mac Pro when it comes. Maybe that's a better bet than trying to sell the 7.1 when the new Mac Pro arrives. Which one will hold its value best? I'm also thinking of a time when Octane (my main 3d rendering package) will support mixed Mac and PC rendering, at that point I could just use a Mac Mini M1 as my front end and the PC as the powerhouse. Finding it very hard to make the jump though!

It makes absolutely no sense to buy the 7,1 in this scenario for a workstation you rely on to make a living. You will be kicking yourself watching your renders converge knowing you overpaid to underperform.

 

[Boil]

I'm bringing this thread back to life, as it's decision time for me, mac or PC. Deadline to purchase is in a few days. I have just got a quote for a 7.1 and a custom built PC.

Mac Specs
16 core Xeon
32GB RAM
256GB System Drive
6800x Duo

Price £11472

PC Specs
64 Core Threadripper
128GB RAM
512GB M2System Drive
2 x Nvidia 3090

Price £11289

The two 3090s would definitely have a high resale value...

I would go for the PC, pick up a maxed-out M1 Max Mac mini when available; then sit back and wait for a M2 / M3 based Mac Pro down the road...?

 

[mitchino]

Thanks all, I think I'm going to the dark side, at least temporarily!

 

[skippermonkey]

Don't blame you, that PC is a bit of a beast.

I've owned my 24-core Mac Pro for nearly two years, so already I feel like I've had value for money from it. I think it'll be at least a year or maybe more before I upgrade to an Apple Silicon machine, by which time hopefully it'll be twice the performance of this one. which is my general rule of thumb for upgrades. Interesting times ahead.

 

[vett93]

I'm not deciding between a M1 Max and a Mac Pro, I'm deciding between a Mac Pro and a PC. I need the high powered GPUs.

Does Mac Pro have a semi-powerful GPU?

 

[arche3]

That PC is a beast.

 

[mitchino]

Does Mac Pro have a semi-powerful GPU?

With the 6800x Duo it has a GPU equivalent to 1 x 3090, not bad...

 

[mikas]

I just got a 2013 "could have been" equivalent of a Mac Pro 6,1. It does best, or double or quadrable on a couple of features though.

It's got two CPU sockets (2x E5-2667v2 coming soon).
It's got 16 memory slots, with a max. config of 512 GB.
It's got a 1450 watt power supply (requires 220-240V voltage, like in here).
Almost everything inside it is replaceable by design.

I don't know if it could be easily converted to a hackintosh, maybe so, maybe not. So I'll just let it be windows for now.

It's not perfect, not this design either. The PCIe slots are too crowded and too close to each other on the motherboard to put 3x modern GPUs in it. Not even 3x VII would fit in there. So I'll put just two GPUs in it. A PCIe NVMe will fit with them fortunately.

HP Z820, 2x 6800XT, 128 GB RAM, 1 TB EVO 970+, WIN 10:

Just testing the darkside, with comparable age with 2013 Mac Pro 6,1 which I use at the moment w/eGPU.

The thing is really loud though..

 

[mitchino]

Hi, I'm the OP on this thread. I bought the PC in the end. Threadripper 3990x, 2 x RTX 3090, 128GB RAM. Still getting used to working on a PC, I'm about 10 times faster at everyday tasks on a mac. The PC has been rock solid so far rendering with Octane, and of course it produces final renders a lot faster. Interestingly though I'd say working in c4d in with the live viewer, the interactivity doesn't seem that much faster than my 5.1 Mac Pro with a 1080ti. It makes me realise what an amazing machine the 5.1 is for it's age. The PC is also noisy. It's not that it's particularly loud, but the fans go on and off all the time so it can be a bit distracting. My plan while waiting for the AS Mac Pro is to get a MacBook Pro M1 Max or a Mac Mini M1 Max when it appears, and use a mac as a front end with the PC providing the final rendering power.

 

[blackquartz]

Hi, I'm the OP on this thread. I bought the PC in the end. Threadripper 3990x, 2 x RTX 3090, 128GB RAM. Still getting used to working on a PC, I'm about 10 times faster at everyday tasks on a mac. The PC has been rock solid so far rendering with Octane, and of course it produces final renders a lot faster. Interestingly though I'd say working in c4d in with the live viewer, the interactivity doesn't seem that much faster than my 5.1 Mac Pro with a 1080ti. It makes me realise what an amazing machine the 5.1 is for it's age. The PC is also noisy. It's not that it's particularly loud, but the fans go on and off all the time so it can be a bit distracting. My plan while waiting for the AS Mac Pro is to get a MacBook Pro M1 Max or a Mac Mini M1 Max when it appears, and use a mac as a front end with the PC providing the final rendering power.

Hi, where did you get the 3090s?

 

[mitchino]

The machine was built to order by Chillblast here in the UK. The 3090s are Gigabyte Eagles: https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-N3090EAGLE-OC-24GD#kf

I asked for nvidia FEs, but they said they don't make them any more.

 

[vel0city]

Hi, I'm the OP on this thread. I bought the PC in the end. Threadripper 3990x, 2 x RTX 3090, 128GB RAM. Still getting used to working on a PC, I'm about 10 times faster at everyday tasks on a mac. The PC has been rock solid so far rendering with Octane, and of course it produces final renders a lot faster. Interestingly though I'd say working in c4d in with the live viewer, the interactivity doesn't seem that much faster than my 5.1 Mac Pro with a 1080ti. It makes me realise what an amazing machine the 5.1 is for it's age. The PC is also noisy. It's not that it's particularly loud, but the fans go on and off all the time so it can be a bit distracting. My plan while waiting for the AS Mac Pro is to get a MacBook Pro M1 Max or a Mac Mini M1 Max when it appears, and use a mac as a front end with the PC providing the final rendering power.

Would you in all honesty say the purchase was worth it and justified? Is final rendering speed that absolutely mission critical to you to justify an expensive, noisy PC that hasn't improved your actual 3D workflow? And are you mindful of the power that your computer is going to be drawing? That thing is going to gulp electricity.

I'm running an M1 Max 16" 64GB Macbook Pro with Redshift and C4D, and the performance in both the viewport and live viewer far outperforms my fully loaded 5,1 with 1080ti. C4Ds viewport is buttery smooth even with millions of clones/particles/high density meshes, and Redshift's render view has an extremely fast time to first pixel and resolves images quickly. The Mac is absolutely silent even with High Power mode enabled. I can even render from C4D in the background whilst working in Photoshop, After Effects, Zbrush, Final Cut etc and not hear the fans or notice any performance penalty. It makes the 5,1 feel like swimming through bricks. And of course the power draw is minimal being an M1 chip. This computer is an absolute joy.

For any serious, long, intensive renders I just upload them to a render farm and let them take care of the heavy lifting, or in some cases use my 5,1.

But if that final render time is massively important to you then I understand your purchasing decision.

 

[mitchino]

The main reason for getting the PC was because I thought getting a 7.1 wasn't a good idea given the ongoing change to Apple Silicon. I would have loved a 7.1 but it just seemed like a dead end. The computer purchase was 50% grant funded and I had a deadline to meet to be eligible for the payment. The M1 Max models hadn't been released by then, so that wasn't an option either. I'll be switching back to a Mac Pro as soon as Apple make an 8.1. Of course by then I'll have got a lot faster using the PC and nvidia might have released a 4090, so I retain the right to remain on the dark side!