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MP 7,1 Can't decide between 7.1 and PC purchase!
- Thread starter mitchino
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I fail to see how this counters what I had written. All it does is show the Mac Pro is expandable which, at least with my statement, was not in question.
I would argue that what you highlighted isn't exactly correct.
How many people are still rocking a 2008-12 workstation that can still do certain tasks? 2008-12 mac pro anyone?
There are a ton of older 2010 macbook pros out there that are still trucking along, whereas the pc counterparts are falling apart with the cheap plastics that are typically used.
ALSO, on ebay or second hand markets, I typically see macs retain their value (percentage wise) much better than pc's. Why is that?
Are you saying that PC's can outlast mac?
How many people are still rocking a 2008-12 workstation that can still do certain tasks? 2008-12 mac pro anyone?
There are a ton of older 2010 macbook pros out there that are still trucking along, whereas the pc counterparts are falling apart with the cheap plastics that are typically used.
ALSO, on ebay or second hand markets, I typically see macs retain their value (percentage wise) much better than pc's. Why is that?
Are you saying that PC's can outlast mac?
I'm unsure if this was directed at me but yes, PCs last just as long as Macs. Even some inexpensive PCs are still around. Macs are solid computers but then so are many PCs. Longevity isn't something I'm worried about with either one (well, maybe somewhat with Macs given most of Apples current offerings have limited, if any, ability to be upgraded beyond their factory configuration).
None of my PC lasted as long as my Mac. Same with hardware/software related issues, problem on PC exceeded by far the problem I had on Mac. And yes, for whatever reason Mac retain much more value, something you should definitely factor in when evaluating the price of a system. For example I sold my 6.1 after 5 years for 35% of his original value.
Not saying PC are bad (I own more PC than Mac and I’m reasonably happy about my hardware) but everyone should evaluate all the pros and cons and consider the whole life of a system including the resale.
Just my personal experience of course
Not saying PC are bad (I own more PC than Mac and I’m reasonably happy about my hardware) but everyone should evaluate all the pros and cons and consider the whole life of a system including the resale.
Just my personal experience of course
Perhaps we should come to some form of agreement as to what is meant by "lasts". Until a few months ago my daily driver was a Latitude E6230 laptop. That laptop was released in 2012 and served me well with only a memory upgrade and an SSD swap (instead of the spinner). Only reason I replaced it was I wanted a larger screen. It still performed its daily tasks without issue, everything functioned on it, and it could run the very latest version of Windows (I think I can say that until Monday). I'd say nine years of trouble-free performance is decent.None of my PC lasted as long as my Mac. Same with hardware/software related issues, problem on PC exceeded by far the problem I had on Mac. And yes, for whatever reason Mac retain much more value, something you should definitely factor in when evaluating the price of a system. For example I sold my 6.1 after 5 years for 35% of his original value.
Not saying PC are bad (I own more PC than Mac and I’m reasonably happy about my hardware) but everyone should evaluate all the pros and cons and consider the whole life of a system including the resale.
Just my personal experience of course
Resale? Yes, Macs definitely win in that area and I'm still puzzled as to why. I just recently upgraded my 2010 Mac Pro to dual processors because the price on a dual CPU tray finally came down to a, at least IMO, reasonable level. Even at this more reasonable pricing level I still questioned why I was upgrading an 11 year old system when I could buy an M1 Mini and get a modern system.
By "lasts" I mean this, sitting on the shelves in case I need spare parts for other systems:
Of course not all my PCs ended in the same way, it's just that on average all my Macs (and Macs from my family, friends, colleagues) lasted longer than PCs, I'm sure there will be plenty of people with 10years old Wintel systems ready to argue that their machine are still running great
Your deciding to part out a home built PC is not a definition.By "lasts" I mean this, sitting on the shelves in case I need spare parts for other systems: View attachment 1854330
Of course not all my PCs ended in the same way, it's just that on average all my Macs (and Macs from my family, friends, colleagues) lasted longer than PCs, I'm sure there will be plenty of people with 10years old Wintel systems ready to argue that their machine are still running great
Unless you need Mac OS, dead quiet and the cool cheesegrater grill, I say do what I did; buy a threadripper 3970 or 3990x system. There is going to be a new threadripper coming out next year, probably on the same socket (not guaranteed). If it does come on the strx40 socket, you will have a clear upgrade path if you want a cpu that will calculate the fate of the universe. There may also be cards to supersede the RTX 3090 (3090 Super). I'm pretty sure it is easiest and smoothest to take advantage of this type of hardware on a native PC.
I have fiddled some with these kinds of applications in the past, and in my opinion workflow is paramount. You seem to like the Mac environment, so I think you should stay on that unless the increased performance on a Windoze machine really outweighs the loss of workflow, peace of mind and ripped hair. I love Ryzen, it's a beast that shreds through anything, but there's no good OS to put on it for artistic work. Conversely, Intel's high end CPUs as well as the price of the Mac Pro are beyond jokes now, they're insults, but the build quality of a Mac Pro is unmatched, and then there's Mac OS. MP will likely be updated soon or SOON™, likely with both new Xeons* as well as Apples ARM, so it would be preferable if you could wait for that. But at least wait to see what's coming now in October to get a better idea of the road ahead. Not only because of Apple, but because of a general shortage of microchips these days. There were at least a few new graphics cards for the MP released recently. Perhaps some new CPU option(s) become available in October. The Ice Lake W-3300 series is rumoured to either come out soon https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/08/intel-mac-pro-xcode-13/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/01/15/apple-two-new-mac-pro-models/ or next year https://www.macrumors.com/2021/07/26/mac-pro-2022-intel-ice-lake-xeon-chips/ and they are at least decent chips. But don't expect any specific price cuts with the chip shortages going on.
*Apple's ARM will absolutely not be able to replace Xeon CPUs this first generation, and very likely not for the second either, and possibly not the third either, so the rumours saying there will be another Xeon MP are very likely true. But sure, it's Apple we're talking about, so it cannot be ruled out that they could simply axe that customer segment. But again, wait until the October press conference to see if anything shows up there.
If you do go to the dark side I can relieve you from some part of the minefield: buy a Seasonic power supply, they're the absolute best. Don't bother with anything else. When it comes to fans, Noctua has the highest quality and best customer support should you ever need it, and they're one of, if not the, quietest fans out there. And try your best to find U.2 connectors and SSD:s as it's the best storage form factor. U.2 is basically a PCIe cable for SSD:s so they can be tucked separately, like in a 2.5" thingy. Very convenient. M.2 is problematic and rather stupid for desktops. Write those names down.
Some advice on cooling: watercooling is not the most quite solution for CPUs, and AIO's usually fails after some years. Watercooling only makes sense for graphics cards and heavy overclocking. However due to the weight of good air coolers, many custom built machines don't ship with them and thus kinda forces you to get watercooling instead if you don't want to get your hands dirty and install a beefy air cooler yourself.
As for cases it truly is a jungle. Fractal Design and Be quiet! are worth looking into, but I'm sure there are more, and much comes down to preference. My personal favourite is FD Define R5.
But I guess you're going to get some sort of cheap prebuilt turd. Or one of the brand machines, which gives you complete support and decent interior design, but comes with genuine Chinese quality. I wasn't impressed by those HP machines mentioned in this thread with dozens of small fans that will be noisy even though they run slow, that's a lot of parts that can brake. The whole thing looked relatively fragile to me. My own enthusiast stuff is better. So yeah…
Edit: bunch of fixes and small additions.
*Apple's ARM will absolutely not be able to replace Xeon CPUs this first generation, and very likely not for the second either, and possibly not the third either, so the rumours saying there will be another Xeon MP are very likely true. But sure, it's Apple we're talking about, so it cannot be ruled out that they could simply axe that customer segment. But again, wait until the October press conference to see if anything shows up there.
If you do go to the dark side I can relieve you from some part of the minefield: buy a Seasonic power supply, they're the absolute best. Don't bother with anything else. When it comes to fans, Noctua has the highest quality and best customer support should you ever need it, and they're one of, if not the, quietest fans out there. And try your best to find U.2 connectors and SSD:s as it's the best storage form factor. U.2 is basically a PCIe cable for SSD:s so they can be tucked separately, like in a 2.5" thingy. Very convenient. M.2 is problematic and rather stupid for desktops. Write those names down.
Some advice on cooling: watercooling is not the most quite solution for CPUs, and AIO's usually fails after some years. Watercooling only makes sense for graphics cards and heavy overclocking. However due to the weight of good air coolers, many custom built machines don't ship with them and thus kinda forces you to get watercooling instead if you don't want to get your hands dirty and install a beefy air cooler yourself.
As for cases it truly is a jungle. Fractal Design and Be quiet! are worth looking into, but I'm sure there are more, and much comes down to preference. My personal favourite is FD Define R5.
But I guess you're going to get some sort of cheap prebuilt turd. Or one of the brand machines, which gives you complete support and decent interior design, but comes with genuine Chinese quality. I wasn't impressed by those HP machines mentioned in this thread with dozens of small fans that will be noisy even though they run slow, that's a lot of parts that can brake. The whole thing looked relatively fragile to me. My own enthusiast stuff is better. So yeah…
Edit: bunch of fixes and small additions.
This sounds like the best solution right now and if there's no update to the MP this year.
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What you say makes a lot of sense and loads of helpful info in your post.
One glaring issue I have with the Mac Pro is this [and a lot of my apps in general] :
all developers are most likely developing their apps for M chips now, and not bothering with focus on intel.
If this is the case, I find it unwise to invest so much money into a desktop that is running on CPU's that may not be as well supported in the next year or so. Apple can state they will support, but will the developers?
This is one of the biggest reasons we are on PC's right now - low investment cost, I know the road map, and above all the apps I use run faster on them due to CUDA and most likely better programming [who gets more resources the 90% or the 10%......]
My experience was the opposite. 2006 MBP had logic board / power board failures three times, to the point that Apple had to eventually give me an entirely new model (2009) under AppleCare. My 2010 iMac had a logic board failure which required me to haul the huge thing by myself to an Apple Store to get it serviced at my expense, and my freelance business was without it's primary computer for X days because it was an integrated unit. I've avoided upgrading my great 2015 13" MBP partially because of the longstanding butterfly keyboard failure fiasco. My girlfriend has had to endlessly (4+ times) bring her MB to Apple Stores to fix broken / stuck keys due to that design fault.None of my PC lasted as long as my Mac. Same with hardware/software related issues, problem on PC exceeded by far the problem I had on Mac. And yes, for whatever reason Mac retain much more value, something you should definitely factor in when evaluating the price of a system. For example I sold my 6.1 after 5 years for 35% of his original value.
Not saying PC are bad (I own more PC than Mac and I’m reasonably happy about my hardware) but everyone should evaluate all the pros and cons and consider the whole life of a system including the resale.
Just my personal experience of course
In 25 years of PC hardware, I've had two failures: a Matrox GPU in the late 90s that didn't work out of the box, and a Corsair RAM set that eventually went bad. Both were RMA'd at the manufacturer's expense and I was back on my feet within a day.
Neither of us should draw categorical conclusions from personal anecdotes. If someone has industry statistics about RMAs and actual service lifetimes of Apple vs Dell/HP/Puget/build-your-owns, I'd love to see it. But I've never once seen any real numbers among all the claims one way or another.
Hi Lou, I didn't see your response to my inquiry. Here it is in case you missed it:
Can't decide between 7.1 and PC purchase!
I am confused. What is the exception you have with my statement?
forums.macrumors.com
Which one? The G4-G5s? 1,1-5,1s? 6,1's? 7,1's? These are all totally different platforms. They have to be evaluated on their merits separately. And the same applies to any PC systems integrator or components vendor.
^^^^All the machines you mentioned are well built, upgradable and some are in use today?
I was quite clear in my response
Lou
Hi Lou, I didn't see your response to my inquiry. Here it is in case you missed it:
Can't decide between 7.1 and PC purchase!
I am confused. What is the exception you have with my statement?
I was quite clear in my response
Lou
Again ... 'well built', 'upgradable', and 'in use today' are all pretty fuzzy terms that will mean different things to different people if we don't define them clearly.
More useful metrics might sound like:
'7,1 Mac Pro users report X% of downtime per year for hardware maintenance compared to Y% of HP/Dell/etc. Windows 10 users for Z purpose,' or
'For 5,1 Mac Pros there are X viable graphics card options for a certain price range, compared to Y graphics card options available for ...' or
'MacOS still pushes OS updates on X year old platform, vs Windows10/11 only supporting Z year old platforms.'
More useful metrics might sound like:
'7,1 Mac Pro users report X% of downtime per year for hardware maintenance compared to Y% of HP/Dell/etc. Windows 10 users for Z purpose,' or
'For 5,1 Mac Pros there are X viable graphics card options for a certain price range, compared to Y graphics card options available for ...' or
'MacOS still pushes OS updates on X year old platform, vs Windows10/11 only supporting Z year old platforms.'