Class Action Lawsuit over Apple MB and MBP Displays?

[matticus008]

However true it may be, though, that this trial (seemingly) has little chances to conjure a victory, this still doesn't mean that apple displays don't 'suck'. I want to ask you then - how would you have gone about doing this or would have done at all?

The graininess is frustrating for affected customers, particularly those who feel PowerBooks looked better (though honestly, the higher resolution, brighter backlight, and improved contrast tells a different story). But I wouldn't have pursued this at all. There's nothing actually wrong with the display. Even the grainy one I've seen is still superior to my PowerBook panel.

All notebook panels are 6-bit. They all advertise "millions of colors." They all achieve millions of colors through dithering. Apple isn't doing anything differently from other competitors. There's no conspiracy--"millions of colors" has always allowed for dithering. If there was a problem with that claim, it should have been raised 10 years ago when manufacturers started using it. There's no financial loss because no one who works or has worked in graphics could honestly claim not to know that notebooks are all 6-bit panels or that they're inferior to desktop panels for graphics work. The media attention of this suit has angered lots of people who didn't know about the practice--but only because they didn't previously care to learn.

I think that the issue is far more nuanced. Is the graininess limited to specific hardware combinations? Is it on all hardware, but only some people can see it? If it's the former, maybe some replacement is in order. If it's the latter, there's nothing really to it since it's not broken.

All in all, with no concrete harms and no truly false claims, this is really just a PR issue and not a legal one. "I don't like the way it looks" is not really a legally-supported complaint. Ultimately, I think Apple's best move would be to waive restocking fees for this issue and refund those already paid who have documentation about complaining about this to Apple. If someone kept the computer because of not wanting to pay the restocking fee, tough luck. Maybe offer them an Apple gift card for $50 or $75 or so if they're feeling generous.

PS: just wanted to say that I truly appreciate taking the time to explain and correct so thoroughly some of my misconceptions.

No problem! I always enjoy a discussion, particularly with someone actually interested in learning something rather than just flinging obtuse Wikipedia quotes around.

does the following bold part mean anything?

Sort of. The displays do support 24-bit input modes, but they don't display 24 bits per pixel. This of course is a developer note and not an advertisement, so you wouldn't use it in a false advertising/unfair competition suit. It's the same phenomenon as the TVs that "support" 1080p input, but only display 1080i (or even 720p).

I personally disagree with their choice to do so, because it's confusing to the average customer, but it's not strictly speaking inaccurate. It might be helpful to file a misrepresentation suit for these kinds of practices generally, if even just to get the word out. These displays do support 24 bits per pixel depth, because that is the environment that programmers and developers can develop for.

There is no 18-bit color mode for the portables and cheap desktop LCDs on the development side, to my knowledge. The panels accept a 24bpp input. They support it. They just downsample to 16.2 million colors for display, losing 500,000 colors in the process.

 

[manu chao]

Dithering algorithms must try do achieve the effect over a number of pixels, [...]

They can do so but what Apple is most likely doing is changing the color of one individual pixel (pixel defined by the grid mask of the display) at high frequency (eg, 60 Hz) between two adjacent color values to achieve the impression of an intermediate one.
See this link:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-guide_11.html#sect0

 

[GeeYouEye]

So it's acceptable in your PowerBook but not in your MacBook?

No, it wouldn't be acceptable in my PowerBook, but then my PowerBook has an 8 bits/channel display, not a 6 bits/channel display. Mine was not the last generation of PowerBooks, but the second to last, the 1.5GHz version of the 1.33/1.5 generation.

I honestly don't understand. I've never seen an advertisement for 16.7 million colors or for 8-bits per pixel depth. Likewise, I've never seen Apple claim that each individual pixel is capable of millions of colors, but only that the display as a whole is capable of "millions of colors," which is a true statement. Newspaper printing lists its colors the same way, achieved through half tones, just like 6 bit panels.

Oh, I agree the lawsuit is ********. But Apple is not getting a dollar more from me until they go back to 8-bit panels, speed be damned.

16.2 million and 16 million numbers refer generally to 6-bit panels. These panels produce 262K colors per pixel (which are in turn dithered from three subpixels), and achieve their "millions of colors" through full-pixel dithering.

Not a soul who uses computers in professional graphics doesn't know this, so there can be no lost revenue from this "revelation." The only indignation comes from people reading news articles and online forums and from people who have just learned about color depth.

Hey, jerk, how about not being so condescending towards people who do in fact know what they're talking about, just because they don't agree with you?

 

[alana22]

Just my own 2 cents, my Macbook display is rather embarassing. I tried to watch 2 dvds on my Macbook and the display was so grainy and viewing angle so bad (really bright on bottom, too dark at the top) I gave up. My moms MBP is the same. I dunno. I bought a Mac because I'd always heard such great things about them so I (foolishly) assumed the display would be very high quality. I love Mac OS but my mom and I both agree that Apple is not the same great company it once was. Too much iHoopla gadgets I guess.


Fwiw, I took that same dvd (V for Vendetta) and watched it on both of my best friends' laptops: a Sony Vaio SZ and a hp dv6000 and the screen quality was surprisingly improved, especially the viewing angles. I'm surprised that with my Macbook, no matter how and where I position my eyes, it's impossible to get an evenly lit viewing angle. If this lawsuit is successful I don't think many people will feel too bad for Apple.

Dunno, I always thought Apple was the premier quality laptop brand. Was, at least.

 

[i needed logic]

This is nuts.
I have a macbook pro - its fine. I dont like the Rosetta slowdown, but thats me being picky.
the screen? its very good.
My buddy has a macbook - he loves it, and he uses it to the max.

I dont think that the law courts should be used for compensating a consumers negative subjective views of a product.
Dont we have the power to buy or NOT to buy?

Here in canada, I buy from a store that will let me return the product for a full, no-questions asked refund - and I have 30 days in which to do so.

I KNOW that stores like this are everywhere, so if you are a picky, whiny, type of consumer, why dont you go to one of these easy-return stores...and shut up.

Even better, because the store DOES get some whiny picky types, I can usually pick up the returned items for MUCH cheaper, and still with full Apple warranty!

I got my Macbook Pro for $1100 CAD because the guy that bought it was an idiot....he whines, I gain, the store enhances its reputation at a cost it can (presumably) justify. (its a BIG chain store).

So keep it up, whiners. I wouldnt want to BE you, but I love the way I get to pay low prices for all my stuff!

I just wanted to say that this guy is sooooo cool!

 

[matticus008]

No, it wouldn't be acceptable in my PowerBook, but then my PowerBook has an 8 bits/channel display, not a 6 bits/channel display. Mine was not the last generation of PowerBooks, but the second to last, the 1.5GHz version of the 1.33/1.5 generation.

No it didn't. There are no portable 8-bit panels. Find a source if you feel otherwise.

Hey, jerk, how about not being so condescending towards people who do in fact know what they're talking about, just because they don't agree with you?

That wasn't for you, though since you seem to think PowerBooks had 8-bit panels, maybe it would be useful to read anyhow.

 

[EricNau]

For those criticizing the lawsuit:

Really? What do you expect us to do?

Apple built their machines with shoddy displays (something we clearly weren't aware of before our purchase), and now, they refuse to honor their warranty, claiming "its perfectly normal" when it very plainly is not.

Do you have any helpful suggestions, or should we just "shut up?"

 

[iW00t]

No it didn't. There are no portable 8-bit panels. Find a source if you feel otherwise.

That wasn't for you, though since you seem to think PowerBooks had 8-bit panels, maybe it would be useful to read anyhow.

How about you find a source instead. It is just too easy for you to make assertions and question other posters' points when you yourself are basing your own points and opinions on hot air don't you think?

Do you personally own a Macbook Pro? Ever seen how pathetic they get when they are colour calibrated? If not, please kindly ****. I don't care about what you say, I care about what I see. Either way even if there is no such thing as a 8 bit panel then Apple choose to use the very worse 6 bits panels. I have never seen a LCD look so nasty after you applied a colour profile to it, it seems like it only works with the factory provided profile well.

And by the way:
http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/fujitsu-lifebook-n6420-core/4507-3121_7-32306440.html

One ****ing example that throws your entire "there is no such thing as a 8 bit display" out of the window, much akin to Jesus appearing before an atheist really (incident date still TBA). Trying to prove something doesn't exist? Good luck trying.

 

[NewSc2]

My MBP's display IS grainy, but it's still worlds better than my macbook or former powerbook's display. I'm satisfied. Of course I'd prefer it without the slight grain but you can only see it on white windows and only when you look closely.

 

[aristobrat]

For those criticizing the lawsuit:

Really? What do you expect us to do?

How is this lawsuit going to make anything better for your, Eric?

You getting a $50 settlement or Apple having to remove "millions of colors" and note that the displays are 6-bit on apple.com isn't going to change the quality of the display in the MBP that you bought.

 

[iW00t]

How is this lawsuit going to make anything better for your, Eric?

You getting a $50 settlement or Apple having to remove "millions of colors" and note that the displays are 6-bit on apple.com isn't going to change the quality of the display in the MBP that you bought.

It doesn't matter to Eric even if he gains nothing from it.

What matters is Apple is not getting away with it scot free, one way or the other, the lawsuit or the greater awareness of the issue is going to cost them, which is good news for us.

I really don't see what legitimate reason anyone has in flaming against the lawsuit, apart from being a brainless fanboi with zero individuality nor an opinion of his own.

 

[aristobrat]

What matters is Apple is not getting away with it scot free, one way or the other, the lawsuit or the greater awareness of the issue is going to cost them, which is good news for us.

Should Apple lose this lawsuit, do you think they'll be more apt to use better quality parts in future products, or simply pay more effort into how they describe the product on their website and add disclaimers to everything, like they did after the iPod lawsuit?

My guess it the later.

End result will be nothing changes for the consumer.

 

[matticus008]

How about you find a source instead. It is just too easy for you to make assertions and question other posters' points when you yourself are basing your own points and opinions on hot air don't you think?

You can't prove a negative. Every notebook panel is 6-bit. Pull up the specs for any of them.

And by the way:
http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/fujitsu-lifebook-n6420-core/4507-3121_7-32306440.html

One ****ing example that throws your entire "there is no such thing as a 8 bit display" out of the window

I'm sorry, where does it say that it uses an 8-bit panel? It doesn't. It says it has 24-bit color support. All of them do--that's the whole "millions of colors" argument again. They DO support 24-bit inputs; they just don't display them. It's still a 6-bit panel.

You're awfully angry, and maybe that's because you're just not right and don't like losing time after time, but either way, it's getting old.

Edit: To make it more clear, Fujitsu claims 18-bit for the Lifebook LCD: here (16M colors)

 

[johnee]

It doesn't matter to Eric even if he gains nothing from it.

What matters is Apple is not getting away with it scot free, one way or the other, the lawsuit or the greater awareness of the issue is going to cost them, which is good news for us.

I really don't see what legitimate reason anyone has in flaming against the lawsuit, apart from being a brainless fanboi with zero individuality nor an opinion of his own.

I totally agree. I could care less if lawyers get rich from this. Apple needs to realize people can vote with more than their dollars, they can use the court system and the publicity that comes from it. That's the whole point of taking civil action.

Maybe SOMEONE at apple will say, "hmm, let's use some higher quality parts to avoid pissing people off and getting sued."

Maybe they will even say something like, "hey, let's make sure our quality control standards are high enough so we don't get sued. We also should make sure that increasing our quality control standards doesn't translate into beatings of the factory workers who's backs we stand on to drive our BMWs"

After seeing this issue has escalated to a lawsuit, i'm really considering getting my wife a ThinkPad instead of a MBP.

 

[matticus008]

After seeing this issue has escalated to a lawsuit, i'm really considering getting my wife a ThinkPad instead of a MBP.

"This issue" can't be escaped by switching vendors. A ThinkPad will have a 6-bit panel, too.

Of course, if by "this issue" you really mean the apparent dissatisfaction of many MB/MBP owners about the "grainy" quality to their picture, then buying a ThinkPad might allow you to escape that, but if you personally put that ThinkPad next to a MacBook Pro, would you see a difference? It would be an interesting experiment to conduct.

Here are all of LG-Phillips' current notebook LCDs. Every single one of them are 6bpp. You'll find the same at Samsung and Matsushita and everyone else.

 

[EricNau]

It doesn't matter to Eric even if he gains nothing from it.

What matters is Apple is not getting away with it scot free, one way or the other, the lawsuit or the greater awareness of the issue is going to cost them, which is good news for us.

I really don't see what legitimate reason anyone has in flaming against the lawsuit, apart from being a brainless fanboi with zero individuality nor an opinion of his own.

Exactly.

Should Apple lose this lawsuit, do you think they'll be more apt to use better quality parts in future products, or simply pay more effort into how they describe the product on their website and add disclaimers to everything, like they did after the iPod lawsuit?

My guess it the later.

End result will be nothing changes for the consumer.

If they put more effort into describing the product accurately, at least I will know what I'm buying in the future. As it were, I thought I was buying a quality product but instead I got second-rate display.

...Or Apple might be forced to recognize and repair their problems. IIRC, after the iPod Nano lawsuit, Apple made the Nanos more durable, started including cases, and started replacing severely scratched iPods.

Either is a win for the consumer.

"This issue" can't be escaped by switching vendors. A ThinkPad will have a 6-bit panel, too.

I think you may be focusing on this particular issue too much, and because you don't see its validity, you discount the accuracy of the entire lawsuit. For me at least, the 6-bit display isn't even a factor. I couldn't care less.
...It's more about Apple's terrible display quality and their refusal to honor their warranties and make repairs where warranted.

 

[matticus008]

I think you may be focusing on this particular issue too much, and because you don't see its validity, you discount the accuracy of the entire lawsuit. For me at least, the 6-bit display isn't even a factor. I couldn't care less.

The entire lawsuit is predicated on Apple not delivering the panel they advertised--that's it. It is not a suit for defective components. It is not a suit for failure to provide warranty service. It is not a suit for failure to recognize a quality issue. People are upset about a variety of things, but the complaint is for a single violation: not delivering "millions of colors" as advertised and thereby not, in fact, presenting a view "unavailable on other notebooks." That's it. They're not complaining that the displays are broken or defective. They're claiming that they do not live up to the advertising claim for color reproduction.

All of this has already been addressed. This suit only makes one claim of violation, and that is in the number of colors. There is no other technical failure named in the complaint--no other metric for failure to deliver on an advertising claim. The complaint has to address how the product fails to live up to its advertising. If they can't demonstrate that, there is no claim.

 

[Edwin the Elder]

I'm sorry, where does it say that it uses an 8-bit panel?

I would suspect it is an 8 bit panel. Wouldn't that explain how it can display 16.7 million colours - i.e. 256 cubed?

 

[Edwin the Elder]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but the following thread seems to deal with the issue pretty extensively - including the Powerbook vs. MBP issue.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/256248/

 

[FX120]

Fujitsu does have 8-bit monitors in some of their laptops, they made a big point of it a few months back.

 

[WestonHarvey1]

List of laptops using 8-bit panels

After some research, I've put together the definitive list of laptops that use 8 bit color channel displays:





Hope that clears things up!

 

[EricNau]

The entire lawsuit is predicated on Apple not delivering the panel they advertised--that's it. It is not a suit for defective components. It is not a suit for failure to provide warranty service. It is not a suit for failure to recognize a quality issue. People are upset about a variety of things, but the complaint is for a single violation: not delivering "millions of colors" as advertised and thereby not, in fact, presenting a view "unavailable on other notebooks." That's it. They're not complaining that the displays are broken or defective. They're claiming that they do not live up to the advertising claim for color reproduction.

All of this has already been addressed. This suit only makes one claim of violation, and that is in the number of colors. There is no other technical failure named in the complaint--no other metric for failure to deliver on an advertising claim. The complaint has to address how the product fails to live up to its advertising. If they can't demonstrate that, there is no claim.

The complaints listed under item 21 (starting on page 7) list far more issues than the "millions of colors" dispute.

The text also mentions Apple's refusal to acknowledge a problem with defective displays (page 16), and also claims, "plaintiffs paid more for their computers than the computers are worth" (17).
...Neither relate the number of colors the screen can display.

 

[matticus008]

The complaints listed under item 21 (starting on page 7) list far more issues than the "millions of colors" dispute.

The text also mentions Apple's refusal to acknowledge a problem with defective displays (page 16), and also claims, "plaintiffs paid more for their computers than the computers are worth" (17).
...Neither relate the number of colors the screen can display.

Pages 7 through 13 are details of the "Technical specifications" breakout and are not components of the legal claim. In particular, the specifications referenced at s. 19 et seq. are for the ability to display "millions of colors." As for 16-17, the wording fails to present evidence that supports your conclusion. You reference s. 44 and s. 46--but the "defect at issue" is described at s. 45--displays not capable of presenting "millions of colors." Section 46 is contingent upon said violation in section 45 under the theory that customers paid for a panel that can display "millions of colors" where it can in fact display 262,144 colors per the complaint.

Funny how you read on both sides of the alleged deceptive practice but skipped over the deceptive practice itself.

I would suspect it is an 8 bit panel. Wouldn't that explain how it can display 16.7 million colours - i.e. 256 cubed?

It's not and it can't. That specification does not indicated that the panel is capable of 16.7 million colors; indeed, Fujitsu's own website admits only 16M (18-bit dithered) colors. CNet is notoriously bad at everything--impartial reviews, technical specifications, astroturfing. I've already given the page for LG-Phillips; all 6-bit panels. As a show of good faith, here is the page for Samsung panels (all 6-bit as well). Matsushita is the same. No one has provided any panel manufacturer source indicating otherwise, and I've provided more than enough support to the contrary--LG and Samsung are the "big two." There are no 8-bit notebook panels in use.

 

[HFU]

15" MBP screen is the worst among all MB/MBP

For those who said people are being too picky about 15 MBP screen quality are pure ignorant. They probably haven't gone through N number of exchanges/returns and still could not find one 15" MBP that's equal or better than 13" MB or 17" MBP screen quality. The grain is present (in various degree), no matter matte/glossy. Apple needs to admit and replaces the 15" screen with the same quality screen as the 13" MB or 17" MBP. For those who said they have seen a good 15" MBP screen w/o grain, please do yourself a favor and take a look at any 13" MB or 17" MBP at local Apple store before saying what is good from bad. IMHO, 13" MB screen quality looks the best.

 

[vader26]

Funny how you read on both sides of the alleged deceptive practice but skipped over the deceptive practice itself.

After reading the legal document, you are only partially correct I believe. Granted, one of the alleged deceptive practices is the fact that they are advertising millions of colors when it is not completely true - but this is just one deceptive practice mixed into a few. The main deceptive practice is overall poor display quality (when top quality is advertised), backed up by forum examples not only about the millions of colors issue but also about grain, uneven backlighting, poor color accuracy, etc.. It seems you are focusing on one sub-issue rather than the issue as a whole... I cannot comment on dithering (8-bit/6-bit) issues because I am not totally versed in that, however, when a company says, "enjoy a nuanced view simply unavailable on other portables" and sends out displays with grain and uneven backlighting (like mine), there must be something wrong.. surely these arent the best possible displays on the market, if they were this would be a non-issue.