Class Action Lawsuit over Apple MB and MBP Displays?

[matticus008]

After reading the legal document, you are only partially correct I believe. Granted, one of the alleged deceptive practices is the fact that they are advertising millions of colors when it is not completely true - but this is just one deceptive practice mixed into a few.

I deal with these complaints every day, so I can confidently say that that is not the case. The section describing the deceptive practices are at s. 45 in the allegations. Internet forum quotes and historical preambles are not questions of law. The complaint itself occurs infra s.37-77, inclusive. There is no allegation except that the displays are not of merchantable quality because they do not meet advertised specifications.

The main deceptive practice is overall poor display quality (when top quality is advertised), backed up by forum examples not only about the millions of colors issue but also about grain, uneven backlighting, poor color accuracy, etc.. It seems you are focusing on one sub-issue rather than the issue as a whole...

There is no other issue in the complaint. I don't know how many ways it needs to be said, but in order to present a legal claim, you must demonstrate how a products fails to meet a standard of care, be it in advertising, in performance, in quality control or in any other venue.

You must demonstrate, quantifiably, what the failure is. That failure is demonstrated in the complaint: failure to reproduce "millions of colors" as advertised. There are exactly zero other quantified metrics provided.

Yes, people are upset about other things. Yes, the forum excerpts mention them. No, they are not named as failures in the complaint. No, they are not open to arbitration nor are they posed as questions of fact in this legal proceeding.

The only question of law in the complaint regarding the machines themselves is the accuracy of the two primary statements ("millions of colors" and "unavailable on other portables") and the only means of evaluation proposed in the complaint itself (the portion falling between the background and the prayer, in this complaint under the heading "Theories of Relief") is the number of colors the panels can reproduce.

This complaint takes the position that the graininess is a result of the dithering of colors, and that that dithering is a deceptive practice under the UCL. Without the claim to inadequate number of colors, there is no foundation for a claim in this complaint.

 

[deadpoet]

Wow. As is usual with these Apple lawsuit troll threads, it's filled with illogical rants from emotive nutcases. Props to the few like matticus008 who are keeping level heads in this ridiculous discussion.

 

[snowmoon]

For those who said people are being too picky about 15 MBP screen quality are pure ignorant.

Thank you! The 18 bit ( dithering ) for me is just the last blow in a long line of display issues except this time users are fighting back with Apple's own words.

I am on my second display... and this was BEFORE the lawsuit. I'm thinking of returning this one too because of the bright spot in the corner, but I'm afraid of getting one that is worse and being without the unit for another several days in transit.

As I have pointed out before 15.4 MBP displays are made by one of three manufacturers and some are significantly better than others. I would love an AUO ( rev 2 ), but I haven't found anyone getting them as replacements only in new systems! They have better viewing angles and color gamut than the Chi-Mei displays that I have been dealing with. I have yet to see one with the samsung display.

Apple has dug it's own grave on this one. Making specific and implied claims of performance that are in direct contrast to the actual product. While other manufacturers are "getting away with it" it's probably because their users have different software ( windows ) that does the dithering correctly and/or still perceive a "good value" in their laptop selection. Apple screwed the QA process on the flagship MBP leaving many many users pissed off. While I personally would never have stooped to a class action lawsuit I do plan on continuing to press the issue with Apple.

 

[johnee]

"This issue" can't be escaped by switching vendors. A ThinkPad will have a 6-bit panel, too.

Of course, if by "this issue" you really mean the apparent dissatisfaction of many MB/MBP owners about the "grainy" quality to their picture, then buying a ThinkPad might allow you to escape that, but if you personally put that ThinkPad next to a MacBook Pro, would you see a difference? It would be an interesting experiment to conduct.

Here are all of LG-Phillips' current notebook LCDs. Every single one of them are 6bpp. You'll find the same at Samsung and Matsushita and everyone else.

Well apple is doing something wrong because (since I work at IBM), EVERYONE i know has a ThinkPad, and NOBODY has EVER had a bad display. PERIOD.

how do you like them apples?

Stop being an apple fanboy and start questioning.

 

[manu chao]

Well apple is doing something wrong because (since I work at IBM), EVERYONE i know has a ThinkPad, and NOBODY has EVER had a bad display. PERIOD.

There are three issues:
1) undeclared 6 bit+dithering
2) grainyness (due to dithering OR due to coating?)
3) uneven lightning etc.

1) is shared by all laptops (apparently some older laptops had 8 bit displays), ie, also by Thinkpads
2) if caused by dithering, this can be due to varying hardware quality or not perfectly tuned software controlling the dithering, if caused by coating again due to varying hardware quality
3) due to insufficient hardware quality

I suffer mostly from 1) which causes problems with calibration software. If none of your Thinkpad owning colleagues is suffering from 1) then ask who of them who of them is using a hardware calibration and is viewing their images mainly in color-managed applications (note no web browser on Windows is color-managed, Adobe apps are, don't no much about the rest).

2) and 3) are quality control or insufficient software design issues which in the end only Apple can be blamed for.

 

[gkarris]

Doe this mean I shouldn't use LCD displays or laptops anymore?

Is it "colors" or "colours"?

 

[HFU]

2) and 3) are quality control or insufficient software design issues which in the end only Apple can be blamed for.

The 15" MBP screen (matte version) coating (anti-glare) was poorly manufactured. Unlike 14"/15" ThinkPad or 17" MBP (matte version), there is no special coating on the screen. When using LCD cleaner such as Klear on the MBP 15" matte version, it left spot all over and hard to get rid of. The grainyness appeared as it was floating on the screen surface when dragging desktop windows or object underneath.

 

[weckart]

Is the graininess/sparkly dust effect still happening with newer MBPs? Mine was stolen recently along with my Powerbook (which had a much better, if slightly dimmer, screen) and I am happy enough to replace it with another, but I could not live with the blurry screen.

Fonts were often hard to read and this was not due to poor dithering by OSX as the effects were actually worse under Vista. I know that it is not down to my "pickiness" if a colleague comes over to compliment the look of the laptop only to glance over and ask "what's up with the screen? It looks like it needs a good clean."

If recent panels are still poor, then I will sit this revision out and wait for the next generation, more in hope than expectation.

 

[aliquis-]

As if Apple is the only company doing this...

Why does that matter? It's still a fact that TN-panel sucks, and doesn't show 24 bit colors. I'd hoped that Macs used better panels, guess not now.

 

[GeeYouEye]

No it didn't. There are no portable 8-bit panels. Find a source if you feel otherwise.

That wasn't for you, though since you seem to think PowerBooks had 8-bit panels, maybe it would be useful to read anyhow.

A cycle through 256 shades of gray, without any apparent dithering, and the fact that Photoshop photos look identical on a 23" Cinema Display and my PowerBook except in brightness, but including in Digital Color Meter, tells me otherwise.

 

[aliquis-]

I hope you realise that any pixel that you see on any LCD screen is actually the result of dithering of one pure red, one pure green and one pure blue pixel.

No it's not, it's not like they dither around with pixels of various colors on the screen, all pixels are the results of three base colors in various intensity, in the case of most graphics cards at 256 levels each.

 

[aliquis-]

This is great news. As a student who dropped $2500 on a MBP with a substandard display, I'm glad someone is stepping up and challenging Apple. At the very least, I want Apple to realize they can't sell poor quality products for such a high price, and at most, I'd like a replacement screen.

I know this topic is a point of contention, amongst both owners of the MBP and those who don't have one. All I have to say is, if it's come to a class action lawsuit over this issue, I hope the naysayers finally realize we're not all crazy or overly picky.

Obviously they can, lots of mac fanatics buy them all the time, they even pretend there really are no issues at all, or even decides that the issue actually is something good!

 

[aliquis-]

Yeah... it means every laptop maker in the world is at fault. PC users don't complain about their LCDs because their machines are cheap to begin with. But Apple should build their stuff to higher standards. I haven't had any problems with my LCD that would get me up in arms about the MBP quality, but if people are complaining then Apple really should do something about the displays. They did something about the battery issues mainly because they exploded in your face, but LCDs should get the same treatment, as the rest of the computer.

So I think.

Most people doesn't complain because they doesn't know that their equipment SUCK because they haven't seen any good one.

 

[aliquis-]

Funny how people are complaining about this stuff. Yeah, they might not show 16.7 million colours, but there is something to be said about the "everyone else is doing it" thing because that's what people see. Does anyone remember convincing their friends that a 266 MHz G3 can outrun a ~333 MHz PII? I sure do. People only see the numbers and say "Hey, if I get this Dell I get more speed", or colours in this case. I've never seen an LCD marked as being 6-bit 1/4 million colours. They're always 16.7 million.

I'd like Apple to be honest just as long as everyone else does the same - or at least is convinced about their lies.

I don't recall people trying to sue over dual-scan colour displays being crap. Now those sucked. As did any passive screen (obviously).

No 18bit TN-panel are ever 16.7 million colors, go look up some specs anywhere.

Also of course people would see a difference if they actually compared a couple of screens.

 

[aliquis-]

Uh, how do you think CRTs work? They show you a green, red, and blue dot each of which has 256 possible states of brightness, which are then interpreted by the human eye as colors. The fact that there are 16.7 million possible states for each three-dot pixel to be doesn't actually mean there are 16.7 million colors. That would require that every pixel be capable of emitting light in 16.7 million different wavelengths, not combinations of three particular wavelengths.

Any color not red, green, or blue perceived from a CRT pixel is an optical illusion to begin with. Dithering is simply using several pixels to create the illusion. Like gnasher said, two 6-bit RGB pixels can, using dithering, mathematically produce over two million colors. Therefore, Apple's (or any LCD manufacturer's) claim of "millions" of colors is just as valid as a CRT manufacturers claim of 16.7 million colors. According to the real-world physical definition of color, meaning light wavelength, both are really only capable of THREE colors.

This law suit should be thrown out of court.

Well by your logic the Macintosh Classic with 512×342 display which I guess could only show black and white actually could show 175104 greyscales! Just add all the pixels into one huge one, turn everyone black and there you go, one greyscale, set one to white, another greyscale, set two to white, yet another. Maybe you could also count all the positions they can be in and say that it could do xx million greyscale patterns! Awesome!

Btw, my hackintosh shows, uhm, I have no idea how to count even!
Atleast not without using paper and forming some sort of loop, but there sure is a hell of a lot unique colors you can get out of mixing 16777216 different colors within 1024x768 places. Sure beats those macbook pro displays!

 

[aliquis-]

Absolutely true. But on one hand needing two pixels to get the same colour range as one must compromise quality. I think that's the point he's trying to make.

Sure they could just claim that the macbook can show 2 million colors at 720x990 resolution or whatever it would be instead ;D

If they wanna group two pixels into one unit that is.

 

[Trepex]

This thread has turned into a bucket of god damned uselessness. No one is backing up their statements, and half the "facts" are merely nonsensical ******** rants.

As a potential new Mac user I don't know what to think of this ****. Thanks to all.

 

[gnasher729]

No it's not, it's not like they dither around with pixels of various colors on the screen, all pixels are the results of three base colors in various intensity, in the case of most graphics cards at 256 levels each.

You should have a look at a webpage that explains how an LCD screen works.

On an LCD screen, each "pixel" actually consists of three completely separate subpixels, each capable of displaying one pure color only in different levels of intensity. Your eye then combines these into one color.

The fact that there are three separate subpixels is what allows the OS to display black on white text with higher resolution on an LCD screen compared to a CRT screen. (Like at your Appearance preferences, under Font Smoothing).

 

[gnasher729]

No 18bit TN-panel are ever 16.7 million colors, go look up some specs anywhere.

You will find that 18 bit panels are usually marketed as 16.2 million colors - that is 253 x 253 x 253, achieved by dithering 4 pixels in a 2x2 square. 24 bit panels will be marketed as 16.7 million colors.

 

[wuzelwazel]

much akin to Jesus appearing before an atheist

That wouldn't really bother an atheist too much, seeing as they deny the existence of God, not the existence of Jesus. Sorry for nitpicking, but if everyone else is going to do it... so can I =)

 

[matticus008]

Well apple is doing something wrong because (since I work at IBM), EVERYONE i know has a ThinkPad, and NOBODY has EVER had a bad display. PERIOD.

That's obviously not true. There are over 1 million hits for "thinkpad display problem" alone. But speaking of fanboys...

Stop being an apple fanboy and start questioning.

Why is it that being accused of being a fanboy is the last result of a failing argument? You can't win, so you try to say that I'm not right because even though my facts are true, I'm personally biased? I hope you understand that the logic there does not follow.

I never claimed the panels were perfect. There are obviously unhappy customers, but as you can see at most technology-related news sites, this suit is met with a big "rolleyes." There certainly are some defective units, but most of the people complaining are probably just jumping on the whining bandwagon and don't actually have a problem, as is true of any product complaint. This suit will also disappear from the news like most of the others, because it's no fun to report that the complaint was thrown out of court. Ever wonder why there's no followup to most of these stories?

A cycle through 256 shades of gray, without any apparent dithering, and the fact that Photoshop photos look identical on a 23" Cinema Display and my PowerBook except in brightness, but including in Digital Color Meter, tells me otherwise.

Yes, and that parking ticket I got last year said I drove a grey Volvo. That doesn't make it true. I've provided you with the LG and Samsung panel pages. Find the PowerBook's panel--or any panel; it will clearly identify itself as 6bpp. There are no 8-bit panels in notebooks, plain and simple.

Provide a single citation or stop dragging on this nonsense.

 

[iW00t]

No 18bit TN-panel are ever 16.7 million colors, go look up some specs anywhere.

Also of course people would see a difference if they actually compared a couple of screens.

Not all laptop panels are TN. Dell do uses MVA panels in some of their laptops from time to time.

 

[iW00t]

That wouldn't really bother an atheist too much, seeing as they deny the existence of God, not the existence of Jesus. Sorry for nitpicking, but if everyone else is going to do it... so can I =)

Well if a supposed dead man suddenly materialise before you, science or otherwise I'd rethink many of my "scientific" beliefs

 

[SmokyD]

more bs from the fanboi

Matticus:

You are so full of crap.

Here's one 8-bit notebook panel (from the link you provided, for pete's sake).

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/NotePC/LTN190W1/LTN190W1.htm

Here's another:

http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=1&group=1&product=7030&category=

And another:

http://review.zdnet.com/laptops/fujitsu-lifebook-s7110-core/4507-3121_16-32172586.html

And another:

www.icomtechno.com/pdfs/AcerFerrari4005.pdf

And another:

http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=1&group=1&product=7031&category=

And another:

http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=1&group=1&product=6073&category=

And another:

http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=1&group=1&product=5617&category=

And another:

http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=1&group=1&product=5942

I could go on all day. What? I suppose you will find a way to dismiss these too?

Fact is, Toshiba, Fujitsu, Acer, Dell, and Sony (to name a few) all use 8/24-bit panels in some of their better laptops. This isn't new.

Just because Chi-Mei and AUO (which both supply Apple) go the 6-bit + dithering route, doesn't mean all LCD manufacturers do.

Pal, you are full of it. You are making a strawman argument. Apple has made false claims on their website ("millions of colors", "simply unavailable on other portables" etc.) and on their developer site "up to 24-bit color", none of which is accurate, especially the last claim.

What other companies are doing is beside the point really. This issue is about Apple's false claims, not whether another company uses the same or different panels. But since you are making a strawman argument and shifting the issue, all while making false claims, you need to be called on it.

 

[bearbo]

It's not and it can't. That specification does not indicated that the panel is capable of 16.7 million colors; indeed, Fujitsu's own website admits only 16M (18-bit dithered) colors. CNet is notoriously bad at everything--impartial reviews, technical specifications, astroturfing. I've already given the page for LG-Phillips; all 6-bit panels. As a show of good faith, here is the page for Samsung panels (all 6-bit as well). Matsushita is the same. No one has provided any panel manufacturer source indicating otherwise, and I've provided more than enough support to the contrary--LG and Samsung are the "big two." There are no 8-bit notebook panels in use.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/NotePC/LTN154X5/LTN154X5.htm
15" (What's 1,670K... that's 1.67Million, which i don't think makes sense. so I'd say they mean 16.7 million) Here's one.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/NotePC/LTN190W1/LTN190W1.htm
19"