Class Action Lawsuit over Apple MB and MBP Displays?

[gnasher729]

Inaccuracy comes from the least accurate part of the system. If the GPU is restricted to 5 bits, then the 6bit LCD panel does not *add* inaccuracy. But if the GPU is working at 16bit, then even the 8bit LCD cannot keep up with the resolution and whatever you see is restricted to the 8 bit accuracy of the panel.

But of course it does. The 32 possible values that the GPU can provide have to be mapped to the 64 possible values of the LCD. There is probably a bit of gamma correction involved as well, so the 32 possible values of the GPU will not match those of the LCD exactly. The data that was already dithered gets dithered once more. All inaccuracies add up.

It's like converting 128kbit MP3 to 320kbit AAC: The result will be _slightly_ worse than the original.

 

[Diatribe]

That doesn't make it right. I've been holding out on a new laptop for a while. The first MBPs were the worst- viewing from a side angle completely skewed the color. Window frames looked gold from a side angle, rather than silver.

I said that because nowhere does it say that the display actually shows a real millions of colors and if Apple wouldn't say that and write that they are only 200,000 colors, the average joe wouldn't buy it as all the other manufacturers say millions...

 

[Diatribe]

After reading this page again: http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/graphics.html, I can see how Apple can get nailed, legally, for this statement:

"Enjoy a nuanced view simply unavailable on other portables."

This statement is so broad, it can mean pretty much anything. If I had a dollar for any time a company marketed their product in a slightly misleading way, I'd be Rockefeller by now. Ban it alltogether or don't but this selecting of companies when it is convenient is a joke.

 

[avkills]

Maybe some people have received faulty displays, but I just compared a ton of the background pictures supplied with OS X on my 30" Cinema Display and my 15" MBP Core 2, and this is what I have observed.

The 30" ACD is a ton brighter and the colors are lot more punchy, but all in all the MBP display looks pretty good in comparison, the MBP looks a tad bit more blue, but it is probably just a wanky calibration on the MBP. The 30" is also SWOP approved and calibrated out of the box, so it is obvious why it looks better.

Watching the Cornell 1080p H.264 video from Apple's QT site on both revealed pretty much the same thing, colors and tone look better on the 30", however the MBP seemed to handle fast motion better.

All in all, they both look very good. And for so-called video professionals, they make these things called broadcast monitors designed for displaying interlaced NTSC signals or HD signals, which you should be using to make color adjustments. Anyone who uses their computer monitor for serious coloring work for video needs to wake up.

Print professionals I doubt would be using laptops, rather opting for highly calibrated CRTs or SWOP certified LCDs.

I see the goldish tint when I view my MBP off angle horizontally (like greater than 45 degrees), but who the hell operates it like that!?? The dithering is very apparent in thousands of colors, but what the hell do you expect? Of course it is going to dither because you are sending 24bit color information and trying to display it using only thousands of colors.

As far as the mac genius people; yeah they are pretty annoying and don't really believe anything anyone tells them. I've brought stuff in before and told them I've already done everything they are currently doing...makes me want to beat them with a stick; as if there is nobody in the world who might know as much or more than them. Although being courteous is probably your best bet; starting off being a jackass rarely goes very far; just wait until they push your jackass button.

This just sounds like a bunch of whining to me; added in with a bunch of trolling for good measure.

-mark

 

[CaptainCaveMann]

Ok so I changed my display setting on my 15 inch powerbook to 256 colors and saw all the graininess. Is this what you guys are seeing in the new MBP's? That sort of graininess but in the millions of colors setting?

 

[Chrispy]

I think this is good. It is about time Apple be held liable for releasing a product with a sub-par component, charging a premium and then denying any problems exists when thousands or hundreds of thousands of people complain about it. I love my MacBook Pro, but it does have a slightly sparkly look and uneven backlighting compared to other laptops that I use. I knew thing going into it so that obviously means I'm ok with the phenomenon. However, some people are not ok with it and Apple needs to give those people refunds if they spend $2,000+ on a laptop that doesn't meet their needs because they were mislead.

 

[gnasher729]

The dispute over "support for millions of colors" is debateable, in my opinion, because it's common industry practice (although misleading) to use 16.2M colors to describe 6-bit displays with dithering/interpolation.

Important difference between 16.2 million and 16.7 million:

Just read up about this, and it might be helpful for anyone who wants to buy an LCD screen with 8 bit depth (note that 6 bit has the advantage that it adapts quicker to changes, so video or fast games will look better on 6 bit, while photos will look better on 8 bit):

With 8 bit, you can have 256 different levels of brightness. With 6 bit, you have 64 levels of brightness, and with dithering of four pixels you get 253 different levels. Not 256, only 253 (from 0 to 63 in steps of 1/4 makes 253 different values).

Accordingly, with 8 bit you can create 256x256x256 colors; with 6 bit and dithering only 253x253x253. The first number is 16.7 million, the second number is 16.2 million. If a monitor claims 16.7 million colours then it is 8 bit (or it is 6 bit and the manufacturer is lying). If it says 16.2 million colours then it is 6 bit (or it is 8 bit and the manufacturer is stupid).

Just checked four monitors by HP, BenQ, Iiyama, and Samsung. All have 16.2 million colours. Viewsonic claims 16.7 million - you can make bets whether this is the truth or some marketing geek getting it wrong. ("The engineers told me its 16.2 million colours. But this book here says 24 bit is 16.7 million colors. I better change it.").

 

[Wie Gehts]

Jobs is a horrorshow. Bring back Gil Amelio!!

Apple's all glitz, attitude and ****** hardware.

 

[avkills]

I think this is good. It is about time Apple be held liable for releasing a product with a sub-par component, charging a premium and then denying any problems exists when thousands or hundreds of thousands of people complain about it. I love my MacBook Pro, but it does have a slightly sparkly look and uneven backlighting compared to other laptops that I use. I knew thing going into it so that obviously means I'm ok with the phenomenon. However, some people are not ok with it and Apple needs to give those people refunds if they spend $2,000+ on a laptop that doesn't meet their needs because they were mislead.

What do you mean by "sparkly"? If I look real close at solid colors on my 30" and my MBP, I can sort of see what might be assumed as a sparkly behavior, however, I think it is just the fact that there is a tiny black gap between all the pixels and that is confusing your eyes, sort of makes a rainbowish type effect. Hmm, Whatever.

-mark

 

[gnasher729]

Ok so I changed my display setting on my 15 inch powerbook to 256 colors and saw all the graininess. Is this what you guys are seeing in the new MBP's? That sort of graininess but in the millions of colors setting?

With 256 colours you get this effect and it will look horrible; the important thing is that now you know what this is all about. You can see quite clearly that some pixels are brighter and some are less bright, and the mixture of both gives you roughly the right colour. But because there is so much difference between these pixels, it is clearly visible.

If you switch to "thousands of colours" you get the same effect, but it is now much less visible. Some people say they can see it from 50 cms; I can't, I have to look very closely but it is visible. That is quite exactly what you would see if you had a 5 bit LCD monitor. If you switch to millions of colours, you would still have the same effect but even less visible because the MacBook has a 6 bit LCD monitor - or you might not notice it at all.

 

[macjay]

With 256 colours you get this effect and it will look horrible; the important thing is that now you know what this is all about. You can see quite clearly that some pixels are brighter and some are less bright, and the mixture of both gives you roughly the right colour. But because there is so much difference between these pixels, it is clearly visible.

I don't own a MBP but have carefully checked out the MBP displays in stores, and when I switch my iBook to 256 colors I can see a "sheen" that is reminiscent of what I have seen on the MBP displays. Interesting.

 

[ctakim]

I have a MacBook Pro and I think this is stupid frivolous lawsuit!

 

[ctakim]

Jobs is a horrorshow. Bring back Gil Amelio!!

Apple's all glitz, attitude and ****** hardware.

Why stop there? Bring back John Sculley!

 

[PostTribber]

I have no complaints with my ACD. the spinning beach ball comes in perfect! every time! really pretty! has Endgadget ever been sued? they've been wrong before, maybe nows a good time before they start reporting WMD at Cupertino.

 

[NoNothing]

Whatever....

> People put up with alot of crap these days, either because they
> are not technically minded enough to realise there is a fault,
> physically are unable to notice, or just don't even care. I'm
> [surprised] at how many people in this thread don't understand
> or care about Apple's display quality problems.

I am technically capable.
I do understand.
I am physically able to notice.
And I do care.

What I have seen is that my 15" MBP laptop screen does not match the quality of my $3000 30" LCD. O Holy cr@p. I never expected it to. However:

1) It performs very well and for its intend purpose of verifying basic images in the field.
2) the color in Windows [bootcamp] is only better in that they [Microsoft] uses a more saturated pallet.
3) there is no dithering but there is some slight posterization and a narrower gamut than my desktop. I expect this.
4) I welcome improvements but find the current MBP a great compromise of price (yes there are much more $$$ laptops if you want to pay), performance and capabilities.

NoNothing

 

[PDE]

Anybody remember the whole "Horizontal line issue" on the last round of 15" PowerBook G4's? I do, because I went through 3 PowerBooks and weeks without my laptop just to get it repaired.

I was even told off by a 'rogue mac genius', when I attempted to point out the problem on a PowerBook on the floor, and how no other LCD in the store had the problem, and he tried to brush it off as normal. His excuse was "it's an optical illusion, and all LCDs have them. If you want pro graphics, get a CRT." I was ready to ask him to point me to the CRTs in the store at the time just to let him know how stupid the statement he just made was. He claimed to be a graphics designer and that there wasn't anything at all wrong with the screen. Using a certain picture that really made the problem stand out, I got several other employees in the store to agree, but not this 'stupid' genius.

Even now, after having the screen replaced, I still see diagonal wavy lines in some colors. There is obviously something still wrong with the display, but in my opinion, it's not enough to warrant the effort to try to get Apple to fix it.

Even if these people who are suing have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to LCD displays, they are on the mark when it comes to Apple's response to "quality control issues." Apple is at most vague, and tries to explain to their customers that the problem they see is a normal thing. I can almost guarantee you that this is what they train their geniuses to tell customers.

I can understand Apple's stance on this partly, because if they accepted to repair every tiny thing that people complained about on their computers, Apple would have a crap load of 'repairs' to deal with. Unfortunately, when something like the screen problem on the PowerBook G4's came up, which people all over the country could obviously see, Apple's way of dealing with things just pissed people off.

If there is a defect with the screens, Apple needs to recognize it and do something about it. While suing them may seem outrageous, if you've ever had Apple try to fix a defect that affected an entire product line, you'll know how stubborn they are, and how many months it takes them to do anything.

Completely agree with everything.

 

[EricNau]

Should I mention that my screen is flickering like crazy right now, and I've tried numerous times to get it fixed without any success?

What should I do? Buy a new computer? ...After all, it's my fault, right?

 

[Maxx Power]

I am not talking about glare. I am speaking of the viewing angle being extremely poor. So poor that i cannot view the entire screen from one position. The backlighting issue is at the bottom of the screen, see the flickr video posted on the last page. It is very drastic and not, by any means normal.

Ah, okay! I don't like the glossy screens because they do tend to have a narrow viewing angle, probably because they can get away using cheap 6 bit TN screens and enhance its contrast with a coating.

 

[daveL]

I think a lot of problems many manufacturers have had recently with screens has to do with sub-standard labor practices and QA/QC in Chinese factories. This, however, is a huge problem that involves the Chinese government, Chinese and American culture, corporate culture, shareholder pressure and runaway economic and population growth. A lawsuit isn't going to solve these problems.

You forgot global warming and world peace.

 

[wuzelwazel]

Suspicious...

Did you guys read page 4 of the pdf? It said something about getting better colors when using Windows than when using OS X. Crazy I say, crazy!!

Edit: And again on page 10. Can a boot camper verify?

Yeah, this was one of the first things I noticed as being suspicious in the PDF. If it looks better under Windows doesn't that mean that it's not really a display issue but a software issue? Maybe they just like the default ICC profile (with its snazzy 'blacker than black' 2.2 gamma) of Windows more? Maybe they should use that as their Mac display profile or calibrate it to something they prefer?

 

[ankh]

Clever to use lawyers to force innovation?

I think Apple's being very clever this way. If they tried innovating to match their advertising on their own, they'd be liable to get sued by their stockholders for wasting corporate funds because nobody is expected to believe advertising --- that's what "puffery" means, inflated bogus claims that everyone knows are hype just made by advertisers.

It must have been terribly frustrating for the techies at Apple --- they know they _can_ do stupendous things, they talk about what they can do, their advertisers then claim they're doing them, but they don't get funded to actually make their dreams real.

But --- the genius of Apple --- once there's a lawsuit, Apple can tell the shareholders that they _have_ to do better. Apple's progress the last ten years is mostly, yes, due to the Jobs Reality Improvement Field in action.

But some of the progress deserves to be acknowledged as due to the customers, who are willing to repeatedly create class action lawsuits that Apple can quietly lose, or settle, and then use as their excuse to improve the product beyond what the other companies settle for.

See? It's what the libertarians keep saying --- lawsuits are the answer to improving the human condition. Apple's the only company that seems to have gotten the message.

"So sue me" is their brilliant idea --- for getting progress no other company's stockholders would allow at the expense of short term profit.

 

[FX120]

Can one, legally, make such a claim without having to be able to proof this statement? In an ideal world, they would have to able to show that there is a technical difference that allows them to claim it. In practice, they just say we are better than the others, something almost every marketing department does.

No, that's probably why on the "switch" page, it no longer has the very bawlsy statement of "It doesn't crash" in reference to OS X...

 

[iW00t]

However, when Apple says the MBP's view is "simply unavailable on other portables," that suggests that its displays are different from other laptop displays, the vast majority of which are 6-bit.

Yeah, on no other laptop do you get a display that is so lousy.

The viewing angles... goodness!

 

[BWhaler]

I'm torn on this one.

One the one hand, this country is disgraceful with its constant lawsuits.

With that said, Apple's quality sucks nowadays, and there WAS DEFINITELY a change in the display quality in the last revision of the PowerBooks.

I buy one or two new Macs a year for personal use, and my company buys dozens and dozens of Macs. Everyone comments that the screens are not as good as they used to be, and Apple's build quality in general is poor.

I used to defend Apple on the quality front. I know all the lines, "everyone looks sick at the hospital" and "think about the millions who don't complain."

But at this point, it's bullsht. Apple's quality is worse than it used to be. Period.

(And IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE to say, 'go buy a Dell.' Yes, Dell's suck. Windows sucks. But I am not buying a $499 laptop with a printer for free. Of course you get what you pay for, which is the point. When I spend $2,799 for a laptop, it should be top quality. And yes, I know Apple's quality, for the most part, is much better than the PC world.)

So maybe, just maybe, this lawsuit will slap Apple to do what Steve jobs says, and deliver the highest quality products in the business.

I remember Steve at a keynote saying Apple picks the best displays and rejects what every other manufacturer wants. What a joke.

Hey Steve, Go look at the light brown line a third down the screen on every single matte screen Apple laptop sold in the past two years. Or the grainy displays. Or the uneven backlighting. Or the soft lit corners. It didn't used to be this way.

I'm sorry, 99.99% of the time with lawsuits like this, I complain about frivolous lawsuits.

But Apple makes crappy, low quality displays for their laptops nowadays. It's the truth. And I am glad someone is bringing the issue to the attention of senior management.

(Don't get me wrong. I am sure steve doesn't know, now sr. management. I am sure this is a shortcut or cheapening by some Chinese factory who is cutting corners to have the lowerst bid and make the most money. I am sure people who are responsible for keeping costs low at Apple know about it.

But a good lawsuit raised the flag. I hope guys like Walt, etc. start to write about how poor Apple's quality (displays, build, bugs) is of late.

Apple and its customers all win in that scenario.

 

[drake]

Seems frivolous. They could have known these things by examining a macbook instore before buying. There are some areas I think they could justifiably be sued on, this just isn't one (and my screen is hardly perfect).