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Huh. Unh? So if my MacBook display is of poor enough quality to warrant a lawsuit, what does this say for all the Windows laptops on the market?

What does YOUR MacBook display have to do with this?

There is more than one panel supplier, and not all displays from the same supplier are of equal quality -- and there-in the problem lies.

Apple doesn't want to know about the poorer examples, despite the MBP in particular being in a premium price-bracket. What else do you suggest those unlucky enough to have bought a display of dubious quality once Apple declares it to be "in spec"?

It's also not possible to vote with your wallet if your reason for buying Apple hardware is that of most people's -- that you want Mac OS X and not Windows.

Having said that, the Windows laptops I've used had decent displays, even the cheap $700 Toshiba my friend just got. No color banding, no uneven backlighting, no graininess.
 
lol, you sure have an ax to grind; sounds almost like a GOP convention. I'll bet you love insurance companies, too. I'm no fan of the Plaintiffs bar, but its utility in keeping a check on corporations cannot reasonably be disputed. An while your braying about the fees earned has some merit (perhaps), it completely ignores the fundamental principle that such fee arrangements are what gives incentives to bring many, many meritorious lawsuits to begin with. That some are vexatious is just the way it goes. That some companies will settle out is the cost of doing business. But for every class action lawsuit that may drive up consumer costs (a flawed premise to begin with, IMO), there are more that result in a net benefit.

Settled, meritless class actions suits consumer drive up consumer costs across the board, as the funds used for settlement have to come from somewhere, and that is not often in full or even in part from profits. That's not flawed, it's fact. Companies raise retail prices to cover the cost of settling suits.

GOP Convention? How is this a political issue? Socialist, liberal Europe laughs at our system of civil justice. I'm about as liberal as you get and you'd only find me at a GOP to heckle. I'm not for the elimination or wholesale reform of the practice of most trial lawyers. Trial lawyer is not a dirty word to me. I have numerous friends and family members who are practicing attorneys, a couple in trial work. But these kinds of class action suits are garbage; they prey on a few disgruntled customers who will get virtually nothing for their efforts while the litigation firms will get loaded up on fresh cash. Cash that will 99 times out of 100 *not* be used to bring meritorious suits that can't flat-out be won or settled, because these sorts of trial lawyers don't take the kinds of altruistic suits that need to be brought, win or lose, to call attention to corporate malfeasance and protect consumers, labor, patients, etc. They take winners and settlers, for multi-million dollar penalties or settlements; those and those alone.

Braying? By that you mean stating? And specific to that statement, how is it just that the litigation firms make a killing while the injured parties get tantamount to nothing?

No, I have no special fondness for insurance companies. Although I believe an insurance company *can* be run equitably and in fairness to the consumer and *still* make a reasonable profit. The fact that many, most, don't do business that way is irksome.

I'm not questioning the value of the plaintiff's attorneys and the wide-open nature of our legal system as it relates to bringing cases on slim merits as good way to keep a check on what might otherwise tumble downhill into full-scale corporate abuse. I'm questioning the value of cases like these that financially benefit only the litigation firm, and the intangible future benefit to consumers is in question.

There are problems. I'm not in GOP fashion suggesting acid-washing the entire system. But a competent neurologist having attended a great medical school, served an outstanding residency, spent many years in practice with no major negative outcomes for which he can be held accountable paying in excess of US$100,000 per year in insurance premiums is wrong. It breaks the back of the system. Sure the malpractice underwriters are to some degree culpable, as they want to make a lot of money. But responsible too are the plaintiff's attorneys who contend that taking for the family of a patient undergoing a risky surgical procedure on his *brain* for which he has been given at best a 50/50 chance of survival, and he dies, a settlement or judgment a hundred million dollars or more -- a great portion of which goes straight into their pockets -- bearing in mind he would have dies anyway without the procedure, a procedure in which no outright mistakes were made, there was no direct negligence, arguing that is okay or right or has a net benefit for society is just plain crazy, profiteering crazy.
 
What else do you suggest those unlucky enough to have bought a display of dubious quality once Apple declares it to be "in spec"?

There is such a thing as "within design tolerance". Assuming you're an informed consumer of high technology, you know this when you buy. And these items can be returned if they don't meet your particular requirements. Why hang onto them and sue the company a six months, a year, later? That seems disingenuous. "I don't like it. Doesn't satisfy my quality standards. But rather than return it within the return period, I'm going to wait until that expires, then fight over having it repaired for free, then sue because they won't fix something there specification says is not broken."
 
I'm not questioning the value of the plaintiff's attorneys and the wide-open nature of our legal system as it relates to bringing cases on slim merits as good way to keep a check on what might otherwise tumble downhill into full-scale corporate abuse. I'm questioning the value of cases like these that financially benefit only the litigation firm, and the intangible future benefit to consumers is in question.

Fair enough. But I think in this system one has to tolerate these types of suits because the alternative is to shut the doors to the courtroom. And where does one draw that line? I am not at all comfortable with that prospect, and as such, I am willing to tolerate that this will either be settled or dismissed if meritless.
 
But rather than return it within the return period, I'm going to wait until that expires, then fight over having it repaired for free, then sue because they won't fix something there specification says is not broken."

Which would be all well and good, but Apple then wants a 10% "restocking fee" if Apple (or their representatives) deign the display to be "acceptable" according to their arbitrary specs, since even the best informed consumer can't see the quality of the display before they open the box.
 
peggy sue

Ok, to defend myself and probably many other 'naysayers':

1. I am not defending Apple out of blind faith. I just am sick and tired of litigation happy America. It does more harm than good in almost all cases. Look at what has happened to the Education system here, as well as our health care system. I agree, that while many lawsuits are just and well deserved, most are not.

Also, many of you say that it is their right to sue: well, yes it is their right, but that doesn't mean you should do it. I have many rights that I don't constantly act out. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you should always speak out, freedom to own a gun doesn't mean everyone should go out and buy a gun, and the freedom to sue doesn't mean that we should all go around suing everyone who pisses us off.

True, not everyone should sue. I agree that America has become litigation-happy, and it would be better if there were way fewer lawsuits. But it's not up to you or anyone else on this thread to decide if someone should sue or not.

Many private lawsuits are indeed stupid but at least the plaintiffs usually (and thankfully) lose. This is a class-action suit and is intended to represent the grievances or a large number of people. This in principle has much more legitimacy to it. In any event, at least Apple will get a little bit of negative publicity on this matter (which is what I would guess the plaintiffs are really after). That may lead to an improvement in Apple products, which *is* good.

Apple just needs to be more upfront about the key components of their systems. When buying a Mac Pro, we know exactly which processor, video card, hard drive, etc. we are getting, and would cry foul if we got something else. Screens are just as vital (if not more so) as the other components. Understandably people would be upset if they felt misled. If suing is their only way to remedy a perceived injustice then so be it. Admittedly, that is unfortunate, but Apple should (and may end up) bearing some of the responsibility for it.

By the way, to those who say that potential customers should just go to the Apple retail store and buy their laptops there (and therefore you would have no excuse if you didn't like your product), many of us *do* go to the Apple Store, but still end up with the same problem. Why? Because we don't get the computer that's on display, we get a new one in a box. And you can't open it until you pay up. Then, if you don't like it, you may not be able to return it unless they agree there is a problem. For a $3000 computer that's a bit of a gamble, no?

I agree with Monkey. The suit will likely be settled or dismissed if without merit, which is tolerable. While some lawsuits are often ridiculous, it's better to have such an outlet for consumer justice than not. And it's also better to respect that right than to tell people they should just shut up.

We've bought computers, we haven't joined a cult.
 
America has what we call a "free market" system, wherein companies are free to produce whatever they feel like in order to try to gain profit.

We also have a judicial system that allows us to seek damages in cases where we feel we have been wronged.

Ain't America grand?

I'm not buying this "apple is the only company that makes OS X laptops so I have no choice." That is exactly like saying "BMW is the only company that makes BMW cars, so if I only drive BMWs and their quality starts to go down, what other choice do I have but to sue them to force them to build better quality cars?"
Except that all cars run with the same 'operating system' (ie our traffic laws, our roads).

This is not the case in the world of computers, where if you want to run, say, Adobe applications you are bound to two worlds: Apple or Microsoft.

Now, obviously there's a choice and no one is forced to blah blah blah. No one has suggested that there is, you're beating up a strawman.

But if one wishes to use the Macintosh OS, one must use Apple hardware - and thus the quality and value of said hardware is a valid issue.

You don't force a company that produces substandard products to improve their quality buy suing them.
This is simply ignorant of the case in question.

Apple is not being sued because they sold a product that isn't as good as other products on the market.

Apple is being sued because some people feel that the product doesn't live up to the claims made by Apple.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp.
 
1. I am not defending Apple out of blind faith. I just am sick and tired of litigation happy America. It does more harm than good in almost all cases. Look at what has happened to the Education system here, as well as our health care system. I agree, that while many lawsuits are just and well deserved, most are not.

You've bought into the propaganda.

I defy you to name these cases that have ruined the American education system and our healthcare system.

Lawsuits didn't create a vast class of middle-men eating into healthcare.
Lawsuits didn't create poverty or underpaid (or under-trained) teachers.

3. I also agree that this news should be spread through the CORRECT channels. If Apple's quality is deteriorating than this needs to be known. This does not mean you go out and sue some one.
If you feel that the product supplied to you does not meet the specifications or claims offered by the producer, and the producer refuses to make good on its specs or claims, suing is precisely what you do.

You then leave it up to a jury of your peers or a judge to decide who's in the right.
 
If anyone bought a display on spec alone they're a fool- holds true for the average person or the professional with the critical eye.

Too many people with too little to do.........
 
Apple and Microsoft

I think Apple is resting on OS X as Microsoft on Windows market share. Apple is becoming another Microsoft if no one kicks its ass.
 
I think what some people may be missing here is that not everyone has the same screens with their MBPs. The 15 and 17 inch models each use two different panels (by Au Optronics and Samsung), and each individual computer varies in terms of how well the screens are engineered into the laptops themselves.

Some people (many, probably) simply got the short end of the stick with their particular screens, in terms of back-lighting, soft corners, graininess, etc. I've seen about 50 different MBPs in the last 6 months, having been to 7 different stores (don't ask), and many of them had obvious lighting problems, and some were pretty much duds. But many were also pretty good, with fairly even lighting, corners, and no graininess at all.

However, many people order their computers online through the excellent Apple store without feeling the need to go into a retail outlet, especially if there isn't a store nearby. And if you've owned an Apple laptop before, it would be likely that you would have approached your online purchase with confidence, as in most cases Apple has produced very solid laptops in the past.

Here is where the false advertising comes in. People who buy MBPs are looking for top quality and are willing to pay for it. Judging from previous Powerbooks (which used 8 bit panels) and from the claims on the website about millions of colors and unsurpassed quality, it stands to reason that many people took that at face value and thought they were going to get something that they didn't actually get.

Simply put, Apple has falsely advertised their laptop screens. Yes, they can claim millions of colors with dithering, etc, but it's disingenuous and misleading nonetheless. If you factor in the other screen issues (which only some will have) then it's pretty obvious why some people are going to be upset.

Returning the MBP (or exchanging for another) consumes a lot of time and effort, and Apple has to agree to this as well. I'm sure many have been able to resolve their issues by getting refunds or exchanges, but not everyone. I myself exchanged my first 17" MBP (with a Samsung LC60 panel) for a new one with an AU Optronics LC62 panel. The first one was fine but had two dead pixels and dark corners. The second had no dead pixels but really horrible and uneven back-lighting.

What did I do? Well, the laptop was perfectly fine in every other way so I decided to lump it and just keep it. Since I spend the majority of my time at home, I bought a Dell 2407 WFP monitor for use at home, where I do most (but not all) of my work.

That was an expensive solution, but I simply didn't have the time or energy to fight it any more. But I wouldn't expect others to do the same if they aren't happy with their laptops. I wouldn't expect them to lump it just because I did.

I applaud the people behind the class action suit. I doubt they or anyone else is actually expecting to win any money out of this. They are spending their time and money and probably won't get anything (except a lot of chastisement, it seems) in return.

Who wins? The lawyers, of course. But not just them. Future Apple customers win too, because a lawsuit like this and threads like these can help people educate themselves about precisely what they are getting when they shop with Apple. And maybe, just maybe, Apple will stop being so vague (for people like me who like to see exact technical specifications rather than feel-good hand waving) and start being accurate and honest. They've been fudging this one for far too long, and I thank someone for having the gumption to call them on it.

Apple, not all of your customers are fanbois or retards. If you want to keep us picky (i.e. intelligent) customers, give us the tools to make accurate decisions when researching your products. In this case, the screen model number, manufacturer, and technical specifications should have been included on your website. Neither your Geniuses nor your Customer Service nor your Applecare engineers were able (or willing) to tell me who made my computer screen and what the actual specs were.

Other MacRumors members actually had to boot into Windows and run diagnostic software to extract this information, which had to be cross-referenced to the manufacturer's webiste.

Hardly upfront if you ask me.

Bravo to those who've had the courage to stand up for themselves. They are exercising their rights, a point sorely missed by the naysayers.

Hey.... um... calm down... it isn't that serious. Every computer company has made garbage at one point in time. Look at MS they are still making garbage. :D

If anyone bought a display on spec alone they're a fool- holds true for the average person or the professional with the critical eye.

Too many people with too little to do.........

I agree... too many professionals aren't making enough products... many waste their time bashing consumers who are probably getting much more work done.
 
...I defy you to name these cases that have ruined the American education system and our healthcare system.

Lawsuits didn't create a vast class of middle-men eating into healthcare.
Lawsuits didn't create poverty or underpaid (or under-trained) teachers....
You then leave it up to a jury of your peers or a judge to decide who's in the right.

Talk to someone in the the profession of healthcare in our country. These constant lawsuits against professionals when someone feels their medical procedure wasnt "perfect". Do you know how many lawsuits my mother has sat in as a witness protecting her department (labor and delivery) from frivalous lawsuits? A mother gives birth to a crack baby and it has defects and she gets a lawyer and sues. The jury is polarized and fearful from hospitals.
I have sat in some of this trials, in complete disbelief. The public is so ignorant on issues and buys a lawyer who has years of experience in getting money from insurance and medical staff. Sure, sometimes doctors make mistakes, but the sheer volume of frivolous lawsuits is astounding. Do you know how much insurance is for a doctor or nurse in the United States nowdays? My aunt is a psychologist who spends 65% of her salary now to cover insurance because of these lawsuits. You don't think that has an impact on healthcare?
You cannot just find THE one case that determined this, you have to find the daily thousands that go on. Even if they do not find the doctor guilty, the fact that they were in court is a risk to the insurance company. Read the facts, get to know someone in healthcare. It is this combination of lawyers and insurance companies that are screwing the American health system.
 
You've bought into the propaganda.

I defy you to name these cases that have ruined the American education system and our healthcare system.

Lawsuits didn't create a vast class of middle-men eating into healthcare.
Lawsuits didn't create poverty or underpaid (or under-trained) teachers.


If you feel that the product supplied to you does not meet the specifications or claims offered by the producer, and the producer refuses to make good on its specs or claims, suing is precisely what you do.

You then leave it up to a jury of your peers or a judge to decide who's in the right.

I agree with you... and it is people's right to fight back at someone if they have been dealt with incorrectly... that is the only way people are going to make sure Apple stays on its toes with QC.

- - But - -

Some people are kinda blowing this out of proportion on both sides. People shouldn't shut up and accept their faultly products... if you plate at a restaurant sucked you'd have it sent back... same thing for the $2000 Apple computer... it's not a Dell or Compaq... it's an Apple... MacBook PRO no less. Should be built to much higher standards than any other machine in all aspects including the monitor.

And claiming that it is all evil Apple's fault that they are out to get us by selling faulty products is bit over the top. If your book is broken or faulty send it back, if the Genius turns out to be an idiot get a manager, if he is just as much of an idiot call the district manager... if all else fails get a bunch of people together with the same problem and sue. If you lose get a better lawyer.:D
 
I feel soooo violated!

OK
I read all the back and forth on specs of the MacBook (Pro) displays, and nobody that I read said anything about how the limitations of the laptop display harmed anyone's ability to to do anything. Don't the pros use cinema displays and Quad Core set ups for their work?
So far this reminds me of all the audiophile "angel on the head of a pin" parsing ad infinitum. I'm of the day when laptop displays were expected to have several dead pixels right out of the box.
Give it a rest and live longer.
 
You've bought into the propaganda.

I defy you to name these cases that have ruined the American education system and our healthcare system.

Lawsuits didn't create a vast class of middle-men eating into healthcare.
Lawsuits didn't create poverty or underpaid (or under-trained) teachers.

Propaganda?? The only propaganda I hear is that the education system is so great and that no child left behind is wonderful. Although this is slightly off subject I feel it is necessary to explain this. Students can no longer be reprimanded (do not read punished) as they used to. Teachers (and administrators) have to tread very carefully now for the fear of lawsuits. This is only one example, there are countless other reasons (if a student is upset, many teachers are too scared to even give the student a hug!) It is not necessarily any specific lawsuit that scares people, it is the ever present threat. What causes this fear or the ever present threat? These (not necessarily this exact one) frivolous lawsuits. Same thing with the healthcare system. I don't know about you but I don't want my doctor second guessing him/herself.

So don't talk to me about propaganda. If you truly believe what you say, you need to wake up!

Also, technically yes, lawsuits have contributed to underpaid teachers (litigation protection does in fact cost money).

Whatever...
 
You've bought into the propaganda.

I defy you to name these cases that have ruined the American education system and our healthcare system.

Lawsuits didn't create a vast class of middle-men eating into healthcare.
Lawsuits didn't create poverty or underpaid (or under-trained) teachers.


If you feel that the product supplied to you does not meet the specifications or claims offered by the producer, and the producer refuses to make good on its specs or claims, suing is precisely what you do.

You then leave it up to a jury of your peers or a judge to decide who's in the right.


How about a list of frivoulus cases that are settled out-of-court because it was cheaper to pay for it to go away then it was to prove what was right.... the health care industry is full of them and lawyers on both sides count on those to pay for their beemers.

If you feel you were "wronged", use your wallet to show your lack of faith in the company.
 
Well this certainly sucks, but I hope that this *somehow* brings us improved LED backlit displays a lot sooner so that the uneven backlighting issue can be put to sleep (mostly). After reading that lawsuit again, I'm just still hooked on the fact that it says "Apple Computer Inc." instead of just Apple Inc. Maybe it's cuz I'm a stickler.


My next purchase will definitely be a desktop. I've decided that I really like it when the fate of my computer is not completely tied to the fate of my display.
 
Don't the pros use cinema displays and Quad Core set ups for their work?
So far this reminds me of all the audiophile "angel on the head of a pin" parsing ad infinitum. I'm of the day when laptop displays were expected to have several dead pixels right out of the box.
Give it a rest and live longer.

Absolutely not. No photographer would adjust color on ANY LCD display and no video professional would do so either. Photographers use expensive CRTs to adjust color and video professionals do the same to view their final product. LCDs are not capable of displaying accurate color. They flat out are not for high end professional work.

It's laughable that someone would suggest a laptop display is useable for pro work.
 
My MBP is topnotch.

I purposefully didn't get the glossy screen, as I have read about issues with print work and the screens, so I can't speak to that, but I use my MBP for designing web, print files with CMYK & pantones, and I have never had any problem whatsoever with what the monitor shows me (via a little colour sync work) and a good relationship with my printers icc files.

I also have a dual G5, and see no problems transferring files back and forth top the MBP.

I just don't get it.
 
My only complaint with the MB C2DI have is the display. Not the colours though (I use my iMac for my photos). No, it's the extremely narrow viewing angle. In fact, I can never see the screen fully, evenly illuminated from any angle. There is always some darkening/halo-ing (or whatever one calls it) even viewed dead centre. I'm going to sell it, however, not sue over it.
 
Talk to someone in the the profession of healthcare in our country. These constant lawsuits against professionals when someone feels their medical procedure wasnt "perfect". Do you know how many lawsuits my mother has sat in as a witness protecting her department (labor and delivery) from frivalous lawsuits?
[...]
You cannot just find THE one case that determined this, you have to find the daily thousands that go on.

This is the standard issue storyline. Someone connected to the industry in question, who feels harmed, whines about injustice.

Person in question can never, ever, cite statistics to support the argument. Only anecdotes.

If these numerous malpractice suits were frivolous, they would be thrown out long before it ever became a trial, as most civil suits are. If they have merit, they go to trial.

Malpractice outlays in a given year - which have been declining even as medical costs rise - amount to less than one-percent of our total healthcare outlays (actually less than one-half percent, I believe).

Why does healthcare cost so much?
- Drug costs
- HMO profiteering
- Doctor compensation - American doctors are simply paid more than they are elsewhere in the world. Argue the joys of the free market for employment all you want, but this is a factor in rising costs.
- Uninsured drive up overall costs with emergent care
 
Propaganda?? The only propaganda I hear is that the education system is so great and that no child left behind is wonderful.

What in God's name are you talking about?

How does NCLB (a joke of a 'reform') have to do with the role of torts in the quality of American education?

Students can no longer be reprimanded (do not read punished) as they used to. Teachers (and administrators) have to tread very carefully now for the fear of lawsuits. This is only one example, there are countless other reasons (if a student is upset, many teachers are too scared to even give the student a hug!)
Cite them. Cases where civil suits have bankrupted teachers and school districts for reprimanding, punishing or touching students.

You won't be able to. They don't exist.

You're parroting a party line of 'feelings' about the legal process in America, but nothing more.

Also, technically yes, lawsuits have contributed to underpaid teachers (litigation protection does in fact cost money).
Find a five school districts that have been forced to deny pay increases due to litigation of any sort.

Find 'em.

Go for it.
 
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