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"Cyberpower offers Pure Sinewave UPS alternative" - finally a cheaper UPS solution?

dissolve said:
After reading through some of Cyberpower's tech specs, I noticed their "Green UPS technology."

Does this mean you'd need a voltage regulator as well, or would the system switch on during a power sag or spike? I'm talking about slight variations in power, not the large surges or full brown/blackouts. Any ideas? Do other UPS systems do the same thing?
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The AVR and Transformer essentially are an AC Voltage regulator. But if it goes totally inactive, it's completely useless, as it's not engaged (= system gets whatever is on the wall until the battery is switched on).

What I suspect they're doing, is AVR and the Transformer get switched "on" when it senses a sag or spike on the wall (AVR fully activates, then selects the correct tap to use, if it's still within the 90 - 140VAC range = not on batteries, according to their specs). But that means there's switching involved = delay before the wall voltage is within design tolerances (voltage swing isn't enough to require switching to the batteries).

This way they bypass the transformer's losses, and to a lesser extent, the AVR (uses relays to select the correct taps to get the AC voltage within the designed range; i.e. bypass the analog parts and only leaves the digital controller active until it senses a point something needs to be activated).

Hope this makes sense.
 
nanofrog said:
The AVR and Transformer essentially are an AC Voltage regulator. But if it goes totally inactive, it's completely useless, as it's not engaged (= system gets whatever is on the wall until the battery is switched on).

What I suspect they're doing, is AVR and the Transformer get switched "on" when it senses a sag or spike on the wall (AVR fully activates, then selects the correct tap to use, if it's still within the 90 - 140VAC range = not on batteries, according to their specs). But that means there's switching involved = delay before the wall voltage is within design tolerances (voltage swing isn't enough to require switching to the batteries).

This way they bypass the transformer's losses, and to a lesser extent, the AVR (uses relays to select the correct taps to get the AC voltage within the designed range; i.e. bypass the analog parts and only leaves the digital controller active until it senses a point something needs to be activated).

Hope this makes sense.
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Then, just to be clear, is technique inferior to other UPS systems that leave a voltage regulator on at all times or is that delay not much to worry about? I ask because I'm primarily concerned with feeding proper power (within reason...can't afford a line interactive unit) to the MP. But, I figure it's still worth it to spring for a proper UPS than just a simple voltage regulator.
 
dissolve said:
Then, just to be clear, is technique inferior to other UPS systems that leave a voltage regulator on at all times or is that delay not much to worry about? I ask because I'm primarily concerned with feeding proper power (within reason...can't afford a line interactive unit) to the MP. But, I figure it's still worth it to spring for a proper UPS than just a simple voltage regulator.
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It's inferior in terms of the protection (no delay for a 24/7 AVR + transformer unit vs. delay on this model = equipment will see a short period of the brown-out or spike before the system reacts to correct it), but it also requires more power during normal operation. Basically, it's a trade-off (power draw vs. protection). But may also be an attempt to lower costs from the manufacturer's POV (expectation that the transformer won't need to be quite as large due to a lower duty cycle, so it can be a lower rating as it's not expected to run long enough to overheat). BTW, this is a line interactive unit (it has AVR and a transformer), but it's not always active according to the available information on the Green UPS feature.

Personally I see this as a bit of gimmickry to reduce manufacturing costs (cheaper transformer). So I'd place the primary function of protection above power draw on an expensive system. Which means I'd skip this unit until it's been proven to offer sufficient protection for more expensive systems (not sure what the switch time is). It's probably acceptable for more of a budget box (to keep the % of the system cost within reason, as more systems are using PFC based PSU's in order to achieve Energy Star compliance).
 
nanofrog said:
It's inferior in terms of the protection (no delay for a 24/7 AVR + transformer unit vs. delay on this model = equipment will see a short period of the brown-out or spike before the system reacts to correct it), but it also requires more power during normal operation. Basically, it's a trade-off (power draw vs. protection). But may also be an attempt to lower costs from the manufacturer's POV (expectation that the transformer won't need to be quite as large due to a lower duty cycle, so it can be a lower rating as it's not expected to run long enough to overheat). BTW, this is a line interactive unit (it has AVR and a transformer), but it's not always active according to the available information on the Green UPS feature.

Personally I see this as a bit of gimmickry to reduce manufacturing costs (cheaper transformer). So I'd place the primary function of protection above power draw on an expensive system. Which means I'd skip this unit until it's been proven to offer sufficient protection for more expensive systems (not sure what the switch time is). It's probably acceptable for more of a budget box (to keep the % of the system cost within reason, as more systems are using PFC based PSU's in order to achieve Energy Star compliance).
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Thanks for your input. My mistake, I meant an online unit rather than line interactive. You bring up some very good points that I was thinking while reading the tech specs of this UPS. I don't trust the wiring in my new place, so I'm certainly looking out for something to guard against voltage fluctuations. Definitely looking forward to reviews from the others in this thread when theirs is delivered :)
 
dissolve said:
Thanks for your input. My mistake, I meant an online unit rather than line interactive. You bring up some very good points that I was thinking while reading the tech specs of this UPS. I don't trust the wiring in my new place, so I'm certainly looking out for something to guard against voltage fluctuations. Definitely looking forward to reviews from the others in this thread when theirs is delivered :)
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An Online/Double Conversion unit offers the best level of protection from brownouts, spikes, and blackouts. But since they're running off of the batteries + inverter all of the time (results in the most stable voltage to the equipment), they're more expensive due to better parts and heatsinking (= higher manufacturing cost).

That's why I recommended go with a refurbished unit (way cheaper than new). ;)
 
been a few days and no reports of the UPS kicking in at all or having to regulate to the point it reports to the software.

very quiet and a small form factor that allowed me to snuggle it right next to my Mac Pro under the desk.

I'm not running the system for any professional means and don't have it on 24/7 so I feel this was a good choice for me and my situational needs.

I def would have switched to a 20 amp box and bought a $500+ unit were this a business investment. Frog brings up some good points that should be taken into consideration if you're using this UPS on a business-critical device.
 
w00tini said:
been a few days and no reports of the UPS kicking in at all or having to regulate to the point it reports to the software.

very quiet and a small form factor that allowed me to snuggle it right next to my Mac Pro under the desk.

I'm not running the system for any professional means and don't have it on 24/7 so I feel this was a good choice for me and my situational needs.

I def would have switched to a 20 amp box and bought a $500+ unit were this a business investment. Frog brings up some good points that should be taken into consideration if you're using this UPS on a business-critical device.
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I feel like your situation is identical to mine. I've looked at some refurb units from APC (the Smart-UPS series) and a similarly priced model appears inferior to this model: no USB and lower load ratings. The AVR potential issue is the only hangup for me.
 
w00tini said:
I def would have switched to a 20 amp box and bought a $500+ unit were this a business investment. Frog brings up some good points that should be taken into consideration if you're using this UPS on a business-critical device.
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I understand your POV (based on usage), but when you think in terms of the system's purchase price, the additional protection seems warranted IMO.

I'd be fine with one of these less expensive units on a cheaper system (say no more than ~$1500 or so), but not so much when the purchase price is in the Mac Pro range (i.e. workstation systems, not consumer units). This is worse to me, when you consider any added equipment such as RAID, external storage, specialty cards of some sort, ... Granted, you're more into professional systems at this point, but some users may have systems like this and not be pros.

But based on the base system price of a Quad, you can get a refurbished pure sine wave Line Interactive unit (10% of MSRP = $250, which will get you a refurbished SUA1500, SMT1500 or similar level of UPS). Better way to go IMO. ;)

dissolve said:
I feel like your situation is identical to mine. I've looked at some refurb units from APC (the Smart-UPS series) and a similarly priced model appears inferior to this model: no USB and lower load ratings. The AVR potential issue is the only hangup for me.
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See above.

If you insist on new, and your actual load isn't that high (base isn't; ~200 - 250W I should think), you could consider the S10 on vann's (1000VA, pure sine wave, Line Interactive model; $200 here).

It's pure sine, so won't have any issues with PFC based power supplies. Nor does it rely on gimmickry to be able to work with such PSU's. All in all, a better unit (no switching delays with the AVR and transformer vs. the PFC capable stepped CyberPower units). ;)
 
nanofrog said:
See above.

If you insist on new, and your actual load isn't that high (base isn't; ~200 - 250W I should think), you could consider the S10 on vann's (1000VA, pure sine wave, Line Interactive model; $200 here).

It's pure sine, so won't have any issues with PFC based power supplies. Nor does it rely on gimmickry to be able to work with such PSU's. All in all, a better unit (no switching delays with the AVR and transformer vs. the PFC capable stepped CyberPower units). ;)
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I appreciate your suggestions. I'm certainly not opposed to refurbished units, it just appeared that this Cyberpower provided better options at a lower price. I'm still try to decide if that statement is true or not for my uses. BTW, I didn't mention it, but I'm eyeing the 850VA or 1000VA version as my loads will be very low. I'll read into that model you linked.
 
dissolve said:
I appreciate your suggestions. I'm certainly not opposed to refurbished units, it just appeared that this Cyberpower provided better options at a lower price. I'm still try to decide if that statement is true or not for my uses. BTW, I didn't mention it, but I'm eyeing the 850VA or 1000VA version as my loads will be very low. I'll read into that model you linked.
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OK, if you're interested in ~$165 price range, take a look at:

refurbished SUA1000 ($159 here)

Based on cost alone you're in the right range. And the SUA1000 or S10 happen to be better units than the CyberPower model you're looking at (awsome deal for the S10 at $200 new, and it has a better surge rating than the SUA1000).

Seriously, I can't stress how much pure sine is better than stepped (no matter how well they may have implemented it, but it's almost certainly a way of cutting costs, as they have pure sine wave units that cost much more; rather similar to APC, Tripp Lite, Eaton,... for pricing). That lower cost is for a reason.

And the Green Power feature of the CyberPower model does put the system at more risk for brown-outs and spikes than an always active unit such as the two models I've linked, due to the switching delay involved in the CyberPower unit.

So for the same money, play it safe IMO. Get the better inverter and AVR system, and be done with it (absolutely true from a technical perspective, not smoke out my ....).
 
dissolve said:
Definitely looking forward to reviews from the others in this thread when theirs is delivered :)
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I ordered my unit earlier this week and it's set to arrive tomorrow. Will be back for additional impressions :)

w00tini said:
been a few days and no reports of the UPS kicking in at all or having to regulate to the point it reports to the software.

very quiet and a small form factor that allowed me to snuggle it right next to my Mac Pro under the desk.

I'm not running the system for any professional means and don't have it on 24/7 so I feel this was a good choice for me and my situational needs.

I def would have switched to a 20 amp box and bought a $500+ unit were this a business investment. Frog brings up some good points that should be taken into consideration if you're using this UPS on a business-critical device.
Click to expand...

dissolve said:
I feel like your situation is identical to mine. I've looked at some refurb units from APC (the Smart-UPS series) and a similarly priced model appears inferior to this model: no USB and lower load ratings. The AVR potential issue is the only hangup for me.
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm in exactly the same situation, which is why I went for this unit. I definitely intend to use my Mac Pro for professional means later down the road, but right now, my work isn't mission critical.

By the way, glad to hear good stuff on it's minimalism and quietness. :)

nanofrog said:
I understand your POV (based on usage), but when you think in terms of the system's purchase price, the additional protection seems warranted IMO.
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nanofrog said:
It's pure sine, so won't have any issues with PFC based power supplies. Nor does it rely on gimmickry to be able to work with such PSU's. All in all, a better unit (no switching delays with the AVR and transformer vs. the PFC capable stepped CyberPower units). ;)
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This is all fine and dandy but is it truly, crucially, critical to have a pure sine wave for a user base with conditions such as ours?

I don't even remember last having a black out in my area and as I said before, my work is not mission critical at the moment. My only intent is to simply and gracefully shut down my Mac Pro within 1 minute of any sort of power outage. I will not be working on battery.

So, will one minute of an approximated step sine wave in probably 1-3 times a year seriously wreak havok on the Mac Pro power supply? It just seems incredibly far fetched if you ask me and which is why for conditions like ours, I just can't seem to justify spending 3 times as much on a UPS just so that the Mac Pro can feel good for a minute of battery time. And we should compare refurbs to refurbs when we talk about prices because I'm sure you can even get these stepped sine wave models for even cheaper.

Anyway, no scientific analysis here. Just giving my two cents based off my situation. :)

Edit: Oops, I should say "adaptive sine wave" as w00tini reminds us in the post below since I'm really referring to this new unit.
 
nano,
would it be safe to say the only component that could potentially be harmed is the PSU? from what I've read that seems to be the case.

also, the unit we are talking about is not stepped, it is adaptive. do the same points you are making apply? sorry for my ignorance here, I'm still a nub when it comes to the ins and outs of the flow of electricity. but I'm learning a lot from you!
 
nanofrog said:
OK, if you're interested in ~$165 price range, take a look at:

refurbished SUA1000 ($159 here)

Based on cost alone you're in the right range. And the SUA1000 or S10 happen to be better units than the CyberPower model you're looking at (awsome deal for the S10 at $200 new, and it has a better surge rating than the SUA1000).

Seriously, I can't stress how much pure sine is better than stepped (no matter how well they may have implemented it, but it's almost certainly a way of cutting costs, as they have pure sine wave units that cost much more; rather similar to APC, Tripp Lite, Eaton,... for pricing). That lower cost is for a reason.

And the Green Power feature of the CyberPower model does put the system at more risk for brown-outs and spikes than an always active unit such as the two models I've linked, due to the switching delay involved in the CyberPower unit.

So for the same money, play it safe IMO. Get the better inverter and AVR system, and be done with it (absolutely true from a technical perspective, not smoke out my ....).
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link, I hadn't seen that site before. That's a great price for the model (except for shipping...$35 USD to me :eek: ). Believe me, I'm certainly not disagreeing with your points at all. Mainly trying to figure out what my yet-to-be-determined budget can get me. I'm thinking the unit you linked is my absolute max as I had only intended on getting a voltage regulator before reading these threads. Thanks, MacRumors ;)
 
Icaras said:
snip...............
Edit: Oops, I should say "adaptive sine wave" as w00tini reminds us in the post below since I'm really referring to this new unit.
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Stick your ear next to the PSU (while on bat power) and see if the PSU makes a very low buzzing sound. If not, then the shape of the voltage waveform is "OK" and you can call it anything you want. :p

JohnG
 
johnnymg said:
Stick your ear next to the PSU (while on bat power) and see if the PSU makes a very low buzzing sound. If not, then the shape of the voltage waveform is "OK" and you can call it anything you want. :p

JohnG
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Ha, I'm aware of marketing gimmicks, but I will definitely be listening to any sort of odd noises.
 
Icaras said:
Ha, I'm aware of marketing gimmicks, but I will definitely be listening to any sort of odd noises.
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FWIW, the PSU in my 2010 MPO makes a VERY low level buzz sound with a standard square wave input (CP AVR 1500). Had to stick my ear right up to the back of the unit to hear it. Although I think the buzz issue is not an issue of concern (for me), if buying a UPS for a new MP it does make sense to buy one that has a sine wave or approximated sine output when on bats.

Congrats on the new backup power
JohnG
 
johnnymg said:
FWIW, the PSU in my 2010 MPO makes a VERY low level buzz sound with a standard square wave input (CP AVR 1500). Had to stick my ear right up to the back of the unit to hear it. Although I think the buzz issue is not an issue of concern (for me), if buying a UPS for a new MP it does make sense to buy one that has a sine wave or approximated sine output when on bats.

Congrats on the new backup power
JohnG
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Oh, I thought the CPAVRLCD units also had approximated sine waves? Well, actually on their specs it says "Simulated sine wave".

And thank you. :) I do hope it all works as intended however.
 
Just to preface this message, I haven't read this entire thread, I tend to briefly drift through here whenever I obtain a brand new system, login some account, then forget about it for years at a time, I don't really have the habit of adding the forums to my browser and then checking 'em every day, so if you pm'd me or reply, then please know I'm not ignoring you or being rude, I'm just not reading it...

I live where electricity goes in and out sometimes, it's a rural area, where I have highly-overpriced underground cables running to the house itself, but when the road floods or a tree falls on the power lines 3 miles down the road, there's not much I can do to control that.

Due to these conditions I have a whole-house backup generator which will bring the entire house online, within 60 seconds of power failure, and keep it going for a very long time (weeks, not hours or days).

I need my UPS to work for about 61 seconds, that's it. I don't need it to shut down the computer gracefully or do much of anything else. I have a variety of different UPS, but the 12-core Mac Pro, all drive bays filled, RAID0, SSDs, etc, with dual 27" Apple LEDs, is plugged into this:

http://www.provantage.com/cyberpower-systems-pp1500swt2~7CYPR02Q.htm

It's not sexy, no pretty LCD, will probably cause a bleeding black hole in the ground that makes the earth cry when recycled, but... it's a UPS, I don't look at it, ever actually, it's pure sine wave, it works with no problems whatsoever, no weird humming from power supply of Mac Pro.

I'm very happy with this unit, I'm not sure what the point is of buying a "simulated/adaptive sine wave" UPS, from the same company, when you can get pure sine, for $300 bucks (MSRP is $400+ but it's not like you have to pay that much).

Just saying.

EDIT: ok, duh, just noticed someone posted pretty much the same thing somewhere near the start of this thread, but the msg was mostly ignored. I'm still not sure I understand the point of trying to save $80 bucks, to buy a cheaper UPS, made by exactly the same company, to protect a computer you spent $5K+ on... ?
 
Cyberpower is actively suggesting the UPS in question for the Mac Pro. That's why I went with it. It's smaller and has pretty lights too :)
 
Schismz said:
Jsnip...............
I'm very happy with this unit, I'm not sure what the point is of buying a "simulated/adaptive sine wave" UPS, from the same company, when you can get pure sine, for $300 bucks (MSRP is $400+ but it's not like you have to pay that much).

snip.........
Click to expand...

Greets

Thanks for stopping by and giving us an update on that CP unit. FWIW, I can't imagine buying a refurb unit when these are available.

Question for you: What sort of generator system (and how much fuel) do you need for a monthlong house backup? :eek:

regards
JohnG
 
dissolve said:
Thank you for that. Very solid review. I know you haven't had it long, but have you witnessed any under or overvoltage situations short of forcing it to use battery? Probably doesn't alarm in that situation so I imagine not...
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it will tell you in the cpanel if it has done so, and nope... no reports of that so far.
 
Very nice review w00t. Yes, thank you very much for making this and sharing this with MR.

I just got my unit in today and it's all set up as well. However, I haven't tried the battery yet since I want it to be well charged first before I test my unit, but very glad to hear that there are no buzzing noises.

I really do like the small footprint and how extremely quiet it is. Noise-wise, it seems identical to the AVRLCD series in terms of audible noise, which seems to be virtually none! I know there has been some nasty feedback on APC's new UPS (back-UPS RS and Smart-UPS SMT) models in terms of fan noise (very very noisy from what I've read on APC's user forums), so I'm liking the extremely low key functionality of CP's units so far.

Of course however, but like Nano states, the ultimate test will be its stability and reliability over time and how well the Mac Pro will react to the adaptive sine wave.

But so far, so good. :)
 
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