"Cyberpower offers Pure Sinewave UPS alternative" - finally a cheaper UPS solution?

[nanofrog]

That's alright, I understand. Thank you for your input.

I've now tried it both the front and rear USB ports as well as with/without the "Start up automatically after power failure" box checked. No options seem to get it to wake and shut down. This isn't too big an issue, but I just wanted to be sure if this was normal for OS X or not.

It does seem odd.

You might want to give Apple a call, and see what they have to say (figured it was in the settings from what you've posted). But there could be some issue with OS X itself (my usage is under Windows and Linux these days, as OS X fell short of my particular needs).

 

[dissolve]

It does seem odd.

You might want to give Apple a call, and see what they have to say (figured it was in the settings from what you've posted). But there could be some issue with OS X itself (my usage is under Windows and Linux these days, as OS X fell short of my particular needs).

I agree, especially since these USB ports certainly respond to keyboard input or even unplugging a device (which is often annoying, but oh well).

Afraid I'm out of phone service, but I'll ask the next time I'm in an Apple Store. Have any of you others noticed that the MP does/doesn't wake from sleep if suddenly sent to UPS power? Thanks for your input nanofrog.

 

[vogelhausdesign]

Sorry to derail the conversation, but is it still a better choice to go with pure sine-wave? The adaptive sine wave technology is making me weary, and has APC come out with something similar?

From the people that own these units, how are they so far? Why is it 1500VA and only 900W, shouldnt it be 1440/980?

 

[Icaras]

Sorry to derail the conversation, but is it still a better choice to go with pure sine-wave? The adaptive sine wave technology is making me weary, and has APC come out with something similar?

From the people that own these units, how are they so far? Why is it 1500VA and only 900W, shouldnt it be 1440/980?

No, it doesn't seem APC has come out with something similar yet. Could be patented by CP?

Anyway, I'm getting my new 850VA for my iMac today but I was personally pleased of my prior 1350VA unit when I had my Mac Pro.

Obviously this stuff is new and like any new, unproven tech, we should be wary. But really, all I can do is point you to some very early and positive customer reviews:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102133&Tpk=cp1350pfclcd

http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-Ad...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1291661495&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-Ad...2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1291661495&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-Ad...3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1291661495&sr=8-3

That said, I have yet to come across any negative press on CyberPower or their new adaptive PFC technology.

I'm just a customer myself, doing research, listening to what other people have to say, and learning as I go along, but so far, no problems and satisfied. Take that as you will

 

[vogelhausdesign]

^ I'm worried about boot overload with my 12-Core on a UPS @ 900W or less, anyone running anything similar to me; 12-Core 2.93, 4HDD+1SSD 1Tb External, 30" ACD and 280W 2.1 Speakers thats on one of these new cyber power active PFC units?

 

[Icaras]

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Also, I'm sure it's still better to go with a pure sine wave unit, but I couldn't justify the cost difference for brand new units.

But that doesn't worry me. CyberPower, like any other UPS manufacturer, are supposed to cover for any damaged equipment anyway. So why not?

 

[Icaras]

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Curious to see if anyone with a machine like yours has these PFC units as well.

 

[nanofrog]

I agree, especially since these USB ports certainly respond to keyboard input or even unplugging a device (which is often annoying, but oh well).

Afraid I'm out of phone service, but I'll ask the next time I'm in an Apple Store. Have any of you others noticed that the MP does/doesn't wake from sleep if suddenly sent to UPS power? Thanks for your input nanofrog.

I wasn't sure if you still had phone support or not.

But there's still other things you can try (involves testing with different OS's, another system <PC>, and APC's PowerChute for OS X).

If you're interested in trying these ideas, let me know, and I'll take you through it.

BTW, for the moment, I'm basing it on statistics that it's a software problem rather than the UPS (could be some odd bit with the MP's hardware due to the EFI firmware, which is one of the reasons for trying your UPS out with a PC - speed/convenience is another).

Sorry to derail the conversation, but is it still a better choice to go with pure sine-wave? The adaptive sine wave technology is making me weary, and has APC come out with something similar?

Between the two designs, Pure Sine is the better way to go. For new units, it's more expensive.

But you can get a refurbished 1500VA unit for the same money ($250USD mark) as a new CyberPower PFC unit (1500VA), so I'd go that route.

It's one of those rare instances you get to "Have your cake and eat it too" scenarios.

From the people that own these units, how are they so far? Why is it 1500VA and only 900W, shouldnt it be 1440/980?

It has to do with the inverter design; it's not as efficient as what's used in pure sine wave designs. Hence under near or at 900W for stepped/PWM controlled vs. 980W for a Pure Sine wave inverter.

Also, I'm sure it's still better to go with a pure sine wave unit, but I couldn't justify the cost difference for brand new units.

See above.

BTW, I recall an article by APC that indicates they've re-designed the BackUPS systems to run with PFC based PSU's (might be worth searching their site). But I'd have thought they'd create new P/N's to distinguish those that do from previous units that don't.

Curious to see if anyone with a machine like yours has these PFC units as well.

There's a couple of MR users running them (posted in MR somewhere), but I can't recall the exact systems used.

 

[dissolve]

I wasn't sure if you still had phone support or not.

But there's still other things you can try (involves testing with different OS's, another system <PC>, and APC's PowerChute for OS X).

If you're interested in trying these ideas, let me know, and I'll take you through it.

BTW, for the moment, I'm basing it on statistics that it's a software problem rather than the UPS (could be some odd bit with the MP's hardware due to the EFI firmware, which is one of the reasons for trying your UPS out with a PC - speed/convenience is another).

Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't tried any yet, but I did read through APC's manual for the PowerChute software. It mentions that some models may not wake from sleep and, like you mentioned, they recommend disabling sleep for those models. So, perhaps, it's the USB hardware on the MP itself instead of an OS issue?

I don't have a separate PC to use, but I could try it under Bootcamp to confirm it's a hardware issue. I'm still not too concerned as there are very few situations that I leave the MP sleeping for longer than the battery would keep it up. But this is certainly an interesting finding.

 

[nanofrog]

Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't tried any yet, but I did read through APC's manual for the PowerChute software. It mentions that some models may not wake from sleep and, like you mentioned, they recommend disabling sleep for those models. So, perhaps, it's the USB hardware on the MP itself instead of an OS issue?

I don't have a separate PC to use, but I could try it under Bootcamp to confirm it's a hardware issue. I'm still not too concerned as there are very few situations that I leave the MP sleeping for longer than the battery would keep it up. But this is certainly an interesting finding.

I'm not sure if it's OS X, or the EFI firmware that causes the signal to be ignored, but I suspect it's one or the other, not a bad UPS (USB port works as it should, so the signal is getting sent).

That's why I mentioned what I did (can let you narrow it down). The PC's primary purpose is to see if your UPS sends a signal to wake the system and activate the timer to shutdown (BIOS instead of EFI). The one hardware test that you'd want to try in order to give you a definitive answer as to the UPS having a good USB port or not.

But using other OS's on the MP is possible (but it won't be able to get around EFI if that's the problem rather than OS X).

Worst case, you'll have to disable system sleep, and only use it for the monitor. Not the ideal way to go in terms of conserving power, but your system will be protected (assuming the USB port in the UPS is good, which I suspect it is).

 

[dissolve]

I'm not sure if it's OS X, or the EFI firmware that causes the signal to be ignored, but I suspect it's one or the other, not a bad UPS (USB port works as it should, so the signal is getting sent).

That's why I mentioned what I did (can let you narrow it down). The PC's primary purpose is to see if your UPS sends a signal to wake the system and activate the timer to shutdown (BIOS instead of EFI). The one hardware test that you'd want to try in order to give you a definitive answer as to the UPS having a good USB port or not.

But using other OS's on the MP is possible (but it won't be able to get around EFI if that's the problem rather than OS X).

Worst case, you'll have to disable system sleep, and only use it for the monitor. Not the ideal way to go in terms of conserving power, but your system will be protected (assuming the USB port in the UPS is good, which I suspect it is).

Ok good points. I'll try to do some of those tests down the road to get it figured out.

A long series of unfortunate circumstances would have to ensue for this to be any sort of problem. As it's become clear in this thread, I'm not a professional and that very slight risk is ok with me. As Icaras mentioned, these products have a warranty attached in case of any damage and I suspect it'd be covered if this sleep issue led to a serious problem.

 

[nanofrog]

Ok good points. I'll try to do some of those tests down the road to get it figured out.

A long series of unfortunate circumstances would have to ensue for this to be any sort of problem. As it's become clear in this thread, I'm not a professional and that very slight risk is ok with me. As Icaras mentioned, these products have a warranty attached in case of any damage and I suspect it'd be covered if this sleep issue led to a serious problem.

Just so you're aware, those warranties only cover hardware, not data (won't pay for data recovery services if required in cases where a backup doesn't exist or was damaged as well).

 

[dissolve]

Just so you're aware, those warranties only cover hardware, not data (won't pay for data recovery services if required in cases where a backup doesn't exist or was damaged as well).

Ah yes, of course

I believe I have a decent backup solution, so I was only referring to hardware damage. But thank you for the heads up.

 

[Icaras]

Between the two designs, Pure Sine is the better way to go. For new units, it's more expensive.

But you can get a refurbished 1500VA unit for the same money ($250USD mark) as a new CyberPower PFC unit (1500VA), so I'd go that route.

It's one of those rare instances you get to "Have your cake and eat it too" scenarios.

See above.

Well I just got my new CP850PFCLCD today and it's all hooked up, and I must say, I really much prefer this over a pure sine wave unit.

We've had this discussion before, but as I've said before on the other UPS thread, this thing is dead silent ( I can't reiterate this enough. I hear absolutely nothing.), it has minimal power draw, is incredibly light weight (15 lbs only), is incredibly compact, and is 3 times cheaper (comparing new to new. Got this unit for $115.99 final price at JR.com.). For me, this is everything a pure sine wave unit is not, and I really find great value in these qualities, which tend to be overlooked when shopping around for a UPS. But again, my demands are not mission critical and not paid by the minute, so of course I speak only for myself and those in similar situations.

And if it craps my equipment out, then I know I'm covered. As for data recovery, I've also got my Time Machine backup, so I'm good to go.

If things go south, I'll eat my words and report back here, but then again I'm using an iMac now. Though, I hope others here will continue to chime in on their Mac Pro experiences with the CP units, good or bad.

I'm simply going to by good word of mouth and an increasingly positive user experience, as evidenced by the retailers I've link above in a previous post. And unless I see cold hard evidence from tech sites, or negative user reviews saying this thing is blowing up their machines, then I really don't see why a pure sine wave unit is going to benefit some users, other than having complete and utter piece of mind. But that said, I'd be lying too if I said I didn't feel safe or I didn't trust the CP unit. So far, it works perfectly, and as advertised. And that's good enough for me.

 

[nanofrog]

Well I just got my new CP850PFCLCD today and it's all hooked up, and I must say, I really much prefer this over a pure sine wave unit.

We've had this discussion before, but as I've said before on the other UPS thread, this thing is dead silent ( I can't reiterate this enough. I hear absolutely nothing.), it has minimal power draw, is incredibly light weight (15 lbs only), is incredibly compact, and is 3 times cheaper (comparing new to new. Got this unit for $115.99 final price at JR.com.). For me, this is everything a pure sine wave unit is not, and I really find great value in these qualities, which tend to be overlooked when shopping around for a UPS. But again, my demands are not mission critical and not paid by the minute, so of course I speak only for myself and those in similar situations.

And if it craps my equipment out, then I know I'm covered. As for data recovery, I've also got my Time Machine backup, so I'm good to go.

If things go south, I'll eat my words and report back here, but then again I'm using an iMac now. Though, I hope others here will continue to chime in on their Mac Pro experiences with the CP units, good or bad.

I'm simply going to by good word of mouth and an increasingly positive user experience, as evidenced by the retailers I've link above in a previous post. And unless I see cold hard evidence from tech sites, or negative user reviews saying this thing is blowing up their machines, then I really don't see why a pure sine wave unit is going to benefit some users, other than having complete and utter piece of mind. But that said, I'd be lying too if I said I didn't feel safe or I didn't trust the CP unit. So far, it works perfectly, and as advertised. And that's good enough for me.

For Line Interactive units, they run off of the wall most of the time (only go to the battery and inverter when the wall voltage dips beneath it's minumum threshold, usually ~90VAC). Remember, Pure Sine wave units such as the SUA1500 or SMT1500 (or others in the same series), are Line Interactive units. Only the inverter is different (pure sine wave vs. stepped/PWM controlled). Otherwise, they're based on the same principle (battery + inverter only kick in when needed).

It's Online/Double Conversion that runs the inverter all of the time, regardless of the wall conditions (no switching between battery + inverter and wall at all). Which means the fan/s are usually running all of the time.

 

[ActionableMango]

We've had this discussion before, but as I've said before on the other UPS thread, this thing is dead silent ( I can't reiterate this enough. I hear absolutely nothing.), it has minimal power draw, is incredibly light weight (15 lbs only), is incredibly compact.

I don't understand how it can be so much smaller and lighter. Aren't those characteristics of the battery capacity and not the technology used?

 

[dissolve]

I don't understand how it can be so much smaller and lighter. Aren't those characteristics of the battery capacity and not the technology used?

That's a good question and I'm not sure. But the APC SUA1500VA is twice the weight of the CP1500PFCLCD (53lbs vs 24.7lbs). Granted, these things should rarely be moved, but it's an interesting comparison. I have no clue why the difference is so drastic between units with the same capacity.

 

[Icaras]

Battery capacity does affect size, but it seems the technology does actually affect both size and weight more dramatically. As observed, line interactive units are much smaller and lighter in comparison. Pure sine wave units in contrast are massive and like Dissolve says, weigh much more. I've always wondered why myself.

 

[nanofrog]

That's a good question and I'm not sure. But the APC SUA1500VA is twice the weight of the CP1500PFCLCD (53lbs vs 24.7lbs). Granted, these things should rarely be moved, but it's an interesting comparison. I have no clue why the difference is so drastic between units with the same capacity.

A bit of it could be batteries, but it's mostly due to the transformer (AVR feature) that pulls up/down the AC wall voltage in the event it's out of spec, but not enough to kick the battery + inverter on (when AC = low). The heatsink/cooling methods used for the different inverter types can also affect weight.

Keep in mind, these are different brands. Unfortunately, transformers being underspecced for the duty does happen in electronics manufacturing as a means of cutting costs.

 

[Icaras]

Keep in mind, these are different brands. Unfortunately, transformers being underspecced for the duty does happen in electronics manufacturing as a means of cutting costs.

But even APC's own Back-UPS series are smaller and much more light weight (around 25lbs), as compared to the SMT1500/SUA1500 (50lbs+).

 

[nanofrog]

But even APC's own Back-UPS series are smaller and much more light weight (around 25lbs), as compared to the SMT1500/SUA1500 (50lbs+).

I realize that.

It has to do with the Duty Cycle that they design it around. Shorten the duty cycle, and the transformer gets smaller (time they expect the the transformer will be active). It otherwise bypasses the AVR transformer.

 

[AndOranges]

Anyway, here's a link to the 1KW UPS which would provide 2x the power capacity of the WC condition. This is probably a bit overkill and the 700W unit would likely be totally sufficient even for a 500W WC load.

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/pp-series/PP1500SWT2.html

Note: Provantage sells this unit for $273 + shipping which is ~$33 to Az.

Do not buy this. I made the mistake of doing so. It does not support Mac OS:

Unfortunately, the PP series would not be able to be used with the
Energy Saver for the Mac.

Thanks,
Jeff Peterson
Tech Support
CyberPower Systems

Now I have to return it and I'm buying one of the few remaining SUA1500's to avoid the fan noise problems of the SMT1500's.

 

[MSM Hobbes]

Do not buy this. I made the mistake of doing so. It does not support Mac OS:

Now I have to return it and I'm buying one of the few remaining SUA1500's to avoid the fan noise problems of the SMT1500's.

Fast questions... (a) is it only the PP models of CP that have the "true sine wave", and (b) for us -users, what other considerations are there with CP and/or other brands? [will be powering a 24" iMac + 2 external HD's with one, and future MP + monitor with another (computers located in different rooms)].

 

[AndOranges]

Now I have to return it and I'm buying one of the few remaining SUA1500's to avoid the fan noise problems of the SMT1500's.

I was unable to find a SUA1500 so I rolled the dice and bought a SMT1500. Looks like APC fixed the fan noise problem and it works seamlessly with Mac OS. I'm happy with it.

 

[Icaras]

Just a heads up on another note-worthy review for the adaptive PFC series by CyberPower. Tom's Hardware actually did a pretty thorough run-down comparison just last November, between the CP1500PFCLCD and other popular enterprise class units such as the APC SMT1500 and ended up giving the CyberPower their "2010 recommended buy". Please note however, this was a comparison for best value in the enthusiast market.

A scant runtime is this model’s biggest downfall compared to enterprise-class rivals, yet enthusiasts are also more likely to finish their tasks within the several minutes of full-load power the unit provides. We told every manufacturer that this article would be a value UPS shootout for the enthusiast PC market, and that’s exactly where the CP1500PFCLCD excels.

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...p1500pfclcd-tripp-lite-smart1500slt,2785.html