All iPads Desktop Mode > Stage Manager

[symphony]

 

[bcortens]

Obviously I disagree with this guy on the idea that we need a desktop on the iPad but agree that stage manager is broken. It looks kind of bad honestly given how poorly it integrates with the existing multitasking system.

 

[symphony]

People who use PiP windows for videos and slideover apps fail to realize how overlapping windows are beneficial.

Picture-in-picture and slideover apps are essentially what overlapping windows are. The idea that you can place an item on top of another so both can be used and viewed simultaneously is one of the ways people use overlapping windows. The implementation is just limited and automatic when compared to Mac.

I find it hypocritical that some users are against overlapping windows in general, but love or use the two other features, when they’re inherently the same thing. Other than the fact that one is for video specifically, while the other snaps an app to either end of the display with little to no customizations. These are just restrictions, but same nonetheless.

 

[bcortens]

People who use PiP windows for videos and slideover apps fail to realize how overlapping windows are beneficial.

Picture-in-picture and slideover apps are essentially what overlapping windows are. The idea that you can place an item on top of another so both can be used and viewed simultaneously is one of the ways people use overlapping windows. The implementation is just limited and automatic when compared to Mac.

I find it hypocritical that some users are against overlapping windows in general, but love or use the two other features, when they’re inherently the same thing. Other than the fact that one is for video specifically, while the other snaps an app to either end of the display with little to no customizations. These are just restrictions, but same nonetheless.

So, right there, in your post you highlight why these are better, they are structured! Structured window management with automatic positioning is, in the opinion of many of us, superior to having to manually manage size and position.
Slide-Over is not always on screen and keeps my stack of temporary windows cleanly organized and out of the way for me, PiP also pins itself to corners with a simple swipe, it doesn’t have to be manually positioned, I just give it a flick and its in the right spot.

 

[symphony]

So, right there, in your post you highlight why these are better, they are structured! Structured window management with automatic positioning is, in the opinion of many of us, superior to having to manually manage size and position.
Slide-Over is not always on screen and keeps my stack of temporary windows cleanly organized and out of the way for me, PiP also pins itself to corners with a simple swipe, it doesn’t have to be manually positioned, I just give it a flick and its in the right spot.

No, I didn’t. Nothing about being limited is better.

And what you’re trying to say doesn’t even make much sense.

You still manually move slideover apps and PiP windows. You still resize PiP windows and splitview as well.

You are still burdened with being a “janitor” as you’ve said when you are managing your stack of temporary apps. With iPadOS you basically have an endless cluttered array of full screen apps, split view paired apps, slideover stack of apps, Stage Manager paired apps, not to mention you have duplicate apps to manage in the app switcher or stack that need to be manually closed.

Windows aren’t always on screen either. So what you say doesn’t make any sense too, they can be moved out of the way, hidden, closed, and minimized.

macOS allows for structured window management while also letting users move items freely without restrictions. macOS allows to snap PiP or position them freely, they use traditional window management and Stage Manager, window mode and full screen mode.

iPadOS should allow users to do the same way. At least do it in the opposite manner is all I’m asking.

 

[bcortens]

No, I didn’t. Nothing about being limited is better.

And what you’re trying to say doesn’t even make much sense.

Yes limited can be better. Structure prevents time spent on manual adjustments, its the reason snap to grid is useful it provides structure and makes it easier to position things. This is basic UI, many many apps have snapping and structure to help improve ease of use…

You still manually move slideover apps and PiP windows. You still resize PiP windows and splitview as well.

You are still burdened with being a “janitor” as you’ve said when you are managing your stack of temporary apps. With iPadOS you basically have an endless cluttered array of full screen apps, split view paired apps, slideover stack of apps, Stage Manager paired apps, not to mention you have duplicate apps to manage in the app switcher or stack that need to be manually closed.

When I mean janitor I mean having to manually worry about repositioning things and manually sizing things. With iPadOS I need to manage window location (in a split-view, in slide-over, or in fullscreen) and at most width and that’s it. With macOS I actually manage the same things using Magnet so for me macOS is about the same (except windows always open in the wrong position whereas i can use drag and drop on iPadOS to open the window where I want it). The duplicate apps aren’t an issue since closing them is equivalent to closing a window so not really any difference there, my stack of temporary apps isn’t resized or repositioned, I just swipe up and get the list of all slideover apps and choose the most appropriate, fast and efficient.

Windows aren’t always on screen either. So what you say doesn’t make any sense too, they can be moved out of the way, hidden, closed, and minimized.

I generally don’t use either hiding or minimizing on macOS and iPadOS already lets me close and move and arrange my windows the way I want (without stage manager).

macOS allows for structured window management while also letting users move items freely without restrictions. macOS allows to snap PiP or position them freely, they use traditional window management and Stage Manager, window mode and full screen mode.

iPadOS should allow users to do the same way. At least do it in the opposite manner is all I’m asking.

MacOS, out of the box, doesn’t have good structured window management, with utilities like Magnet you can get structured window management but by default the fullscreen and split-view implementations are quite limited. They do not allow nearly the free form drag and drop as iPadOS does.

Stage manager on macOS isn’t as good as if they had made a few improvements to Mission Control (Mission Control with spaces + Magnet is far superior to Stage Manager).

Look I know you want windows to overlap, I maintain that the windowing system and experience is superior on iPad OS and that people who want macOS windowing should use a mac. The iPad should really stay focused on being its own thing, clearly there is a group of people (I’m not alone on these forums) that want the iPad to be its own thing and don’t want a touch based version of macOS.

 

[babyexercise]

Stage Manager is actually desktop style multitasking, the only difference is that you are bound to limitations.

Despite Apple making the right steps, I’m tired of these automated features.

When it comes to window management, I want infinite customization done on my own behalf. I don’t want windows automatically moving because I moved overlapping windows.

If it’s anything similar to rearranging app icons and widgets on Home Screen, then I really don’t want it to be automatic. If it’s like PiP windows that snaps to each corners, but instead snaps to sections of windows or snaps near the center, then I don’t want it to be automatic. Plus, I want a consistent experience between iPadOS and macOS when it comes to the basics.

I want app windows to freely move anywhere, I don’t want apps to move on their own. No snapping or limited window placements. I had to disable cursor animations for iPadOS, because the snapping led to unintended selections.

Also, it seems like there’s a lot of padding on the sides.

Just give us a Desktop Mode, which is literally just Stage Manager, except that active apps are taking up space on the left side, instead of appearing in the dock, and apps can be automatically readjusted and altered.

Using finger to control a full desktop mode would be hard so they will never give it to you.

 

[symphony]

Yes limited can be better. Structure prevents time spent on manual adjustments, its the reason snap to grid is useful it provides structure and makes it easier to position things. This is basic UI, many many apps have snapping and structure to help improve ease of use…


When I mean janitor I mean having to manually worry about repositioning things and manually sizing things. With iPadOS I need to manage window location (in a split-view, in slide-over, or in fullscreen) and at most width and that’s it. With macOS I actually manage the same things using Magnet so for me macOS is about the same (except windows always open in the wrong position whereas i can use drag and drop on iPadOS to open the window where I want it). The duplicate apps aren’t an issue since closing them is equivalent to closing a window so not really any difference there, my stack of temporary apps isn’t resized or repositioned, I just swipe up and get the list of all slideover apps and choose the most appropriate, fast and efficient.


I generally don’t use either hiding or minimizing on macOS and iPadOS already lets me close and move and arrange my windows the way I want (without stage manager).


MacOS, out of the box, doesn’t have good structured window management, with utilities like Magnet you can get structured window management but by default the fullscreen and split-view implementations are quite limited. They do not allow nearly the free form drag and drop as iPadOS does.

Stage manager on macOS isn’t as good as if they had made a few improvements to Mission Control (Mission Control with spaces + Magnet is far superior to Stage Manager).

Look I know you want windows to overlap, I maintain that the windowing system and experience is superior on iPad OS and that people who want macOS windowing should use a mac. The iPad should really stay focused on being its own thing, clearly there is a group of people (I’m not alone on these forums) that want the iPad to be its own thing and don’t want a touch based version of macOS.

Windows already overlap on iPad. I got what I want. The problem is being able to freely move them, it’s literally a basic thing to ask for.

Just don’t buy an M1 iPad. Because we clearly see the direction Apple is going here.

And sorry to disappoint, but iPadOS is already a touch based version of macOS. It’s been that way for awhile now and slowly converging more to that. iPad even adopted the look of Mac apps and its core features that you, yourself, more than likely use.

But seriously, do you think that freely positioning windows is such a Mac feature? Is that seriously where it crosses the line?

You like to drag and drop apps for multitasking, a feature from Mac that iPad adopted. This makes no sense. But I guess if the feature is convenient for you, you’ll look the other way.

I think I’m being fair when I suggest for iPad to keep being as is, but also have options just like Mac. Keep apps full screen by default, but be able to switch to desktop mode if we need it, which is completely the opposite approach to Mac, where apps by default are in windows, but be able to switch to full screen mode when needed.

Once again, no one is forcing you to use any of these features. Don’t hold the rest of us back when you can still do what you want to do.

 

[bcortens]

Windows already overlap on iPad. I got what I want. The problem is being able to freely move them, it’s literally a basic thing to ask for.

Just don’t buy an M1 iPad. Because we clearly see the direction Apple is going here.

And sorry to disappoint, but iPadOS is already a touch based version of macOS. It’s been that way for awhile now and slowly converging more to that. iPad even adopted the look of Mac apps and its core features that you, yourself, more than likely use.

But seriously, do you think that freely positioning windows is such a Mac feature? Is that seriously where it crosses the line?

You like to drag and drop apps for multitasking, a feature from Mac that iPad adopted. This makes no sense. But I guess if the feature is convenient for you, you’ll look the other way.

I think I’m being fair when I suggest for iPad to keep being as is, but also have options just like Mac. Keep apps full screen by default, but be able to switch to desktop mode if we need it, which is completely the opposite approach to Mac, where apps by default are in windows, but be able to switch to full screen mode when needed.

Once again, no one is forcing you to use any of these features. Don’t hold the rest of us back when you can still do what you want to do.

I want everything else the M1 iPads get me (virtual memory for example). I’m going to get the M2 pro whenever it comes out and am going to suffer through stage manager when using an external display because its better than the mirroring that we have now.

There is a difference between OS UI and the underlying OS, clearly I mean the UI not the fact that the foundation of iOS was evolved from macOS.

I keep trying to tell you macOS Split View is not as good as iPadOS Split View you can’t do nearly as much free form drag and drop. I feel like the iPadOS Split View preceded macOS but I might be wrong on that, not really relevant to which UI I find better.

It’s about the conceptual metaphor, stage manager doesn’t work well because it doesn’t adopt the macOS spaces metaphor or the iPadOS fullscreen metaphor.

With macOS you have a space in which windows are free to float and those windows are all existing within that specific space (I suppose they are called desktops in Mission Control these days), and you can freely manage them within that space. That is the metaphor, you have multiple spaces and windows exist on their own within spaces.

With iPadOS you have, instead of spaces, a conceptual world in which you have apps that take up all or part of the screen as a set of 2 apps, and you can use multitasking to zoom that world out and see your list of all the apps that exist in these fullscreen or split-view pairs. On the right you have the other place apps can live which is this other layer that kind of lives in front of the main world of apps.

These are two different ways of conceptually understanding where to find windows, I don’t think we should muddle them by trying to mix them.



Coming around to your point of view a bit
I actually think they could have appeased both myself and you if they had done something like the following:
Give us Mission Control with Spaces/Desktops and a built in version of Magnet window snapping (that can be disabled).

I think this would be a better metaphor than what they did because it would actually be conceptually consistent and it would give you the opportunity to manually resize and me the opportunity to snap windows to take up half the space/desktop or 1/3 of the space/desktop …

I think I just talked myself around to wanting a version of the macOS desktop but without stage manager and with a few extra built in features to snap apps to fullscreen and split view… huh, didn’t expect that to happen…

So I’ll say again, stage manager is bad because it doesn’t provide a good mental model of windowing that fits in on either macOS or iPadOS…

 

[alien3dx]

It looks like the answer for people who don’t want these features is to buy a different iPad.

allready people complain , why you need more gadget then normal person meh?

 

[LogicalApex]

No it isn’t the answer should have been that Apple improved the existing multitasking system, they instead left the existing system to languish in neglect because people convinced them that only multiple floating windows was true multitasking …

Most people who wanted resizable windows are the same ones that want the configurability and the ability to tinker that comes with a Mac and are still not going to buy an iPad Pro.

Edit: The iPad shouldn’t become a mac, and the convergence in UI is disappointing… apple used to try and make decisions that let each platform be true to itself now they seem to be just mashing things together because it is what their customers say they want. I don’t think they have anyone really in charge of design direction of their user experience that has a clear vision for what makes the Mac or the iPad unique and powerful.

Edit 2: The iPad should gain more power by extending its capabilities (driver kit, improvements to files, virtual memory) while maintaining its elegant touch first UX.

I don’t get the complaint. You don’t have to use Stage Manager. Then the UI is the same as it has been… Apple isn’t forcing you down one path.

why be upset others are getting features they care for when you’re not losing anything. Puzzling to me.

 

[bcortens]

I don’t get the complaint. You don’t have to use Stage Manager. Then the UI is the same as it has been… Apple isn’t forcing you down one path.

why be upset others are getting features they care for when you’re not losing anything. Puzzling to me.

You do have to use stage manager if you want to use the external screen.

I’ve revised my opinion a bit on this - I think stage manager is bad because it doesn’t work well with the rest of the UI interactions on the system. It isn’t a conceptually cohesive platform given that stage manager is almost like this other mode that can exist simultaneously with the main iPad mode. I think that they could have done a much better job with this if they had just ported an iPad version of Mission Control with a few limitations …

Stage manager doesn’t work with the iPad multitasking model because once you need something not in stage manager it exposes just how hacked into the system it is.

 

[iDento]

Stage Manager is actually desktop style multitasking, the only difference is that you are bound to limitations.

Despite Apple making the right steps, I’m tired of these automated features.

When it comes to window management, I want infinite customization done on my own behalf. I don’t want windows automatically moving because I moved overlapping windows.

If it’s anything similar to rearranging app icons and widgets on Home Screen, then I really don’t want it to be automatic. If it’s like PiP windows that snaps to each corners, but instead snaps to sections of windows or snaps near the center, then I don’t want it to be automatic. Plus, I want a consistent experience between iPadOS and macOS when it comes to the basics.

I want app windows to freely move anywhere, I don’t want apps to move on their own. No snapping or limited window placements. I had to disable cursor animations for iPadOS, because the snapping led to unintended selections.

Also, it seems like there’s a lot of padding on the sides.

Just give us a Desktop Mode, which is literally just Stage Manager, except that active apps are taking up space on the left side, instead of appearing in the dock, and apps can be automatically readjusted and altered.

Buy a Mac.

I have a MacBook Pro, I don’t want my iPad to be just another laptop.

 

[symphony]

Buy a Mac.

I have a MacBook Pro, I don’t want my iPad to be just another laptop.

I. Already. Have. A. Mac.

Just because features overlap with Mac doesn’t mean an iPad loses its purpose? An iPad’s biggest strength is versatility. Quit hampering iPad’s potential.

First of all, windows now exist on iPadOS 16. Secondly, the moment they added Magic Keyboard for iPad is when iPad became “another laptop”.

 

[darngooddesign]

In both Stage Manager threads the general tone of complaints is that of public release, not a beta 1 preview. I hope everyone with usability issues and suggestions is submitting detailed feedback to Apple.

 

[Isengardtom]

Obviously I disagree with this guy on the idea that we need a desktop on the iPad but agree that stage manager is broken. It looks kind of bad honestly given how poorly it integrates with the existing multitasking system.

Luke is great for Mac related content, probably the best actually. But he’s also very biased towards macs as most Mac focused youtubers are so I tend regard his non Mac content a bit lower if I’m honest.

There’s other YouTubers like Christopher Lawley, Fernando Silva, Patrick Rambles, Canoopsy, Noah Herman that are more iPad focused users and offer a better perspective in this regards in my view.

As for Stage manager, I think we should not judge it too much based of Beta 1. There’s a lot of fine tuning and improvement possible over the next 3 or so months

 

[PrettyWings]

No it isn’t the answer should have been that Apple improved the existing multitasking system, they instead left the existing system to languish in neglect because people convinced them that only multiple floating windows was true multitasking …

Most people who wanted resizable windows are the same ones that want the configurability and the ability to tinker that comes with a Mac and are still not going to buy an iPad Pro.

Edit: The iPad shouldn’t become a mac, and the convergence in UI is disappointing… apple used to try and make decisions that let each platform be true to itself now they seem to be just mashing things together because it is what their customers say they want. I don’t think they have anyone really in charge of design direction of their user experience that has a clear vision for what makes the Mac or the iPad unique and powerful.

Edit 2: The iPad should gain more power by extending its capabilities (driver kit, improvements to files, virtual memory) while maintaining its elegant touch first UX.

I think you think the iPad is something other than it is. They said on Monday that iPad OS is the best of iOS and Mac OS. So it is supposed to be somewhat like Mac OS.

You said people convinced them but maybe they just did what most of their customers wanted. They spend a lot of money on R&D and this is a very deliberate action.

As I said though, there is a choice. The iPad Pro is being positioned as the iPad for the people who want to get stuff done. It’s likely to get the most Mac-like out of any other iPad. If you don’t like that experience then they have other models. It doesn’t seem right that other people don’t get anything they want because you don’t want to exercise your freedom to choose the right iPad.

 

[bcortens]

I think you think the iPad is something other than it is. They said on Monday that iPad OS is the best of iOS and Mac OS. So it is supposed to be somewhat like Mac OS.

You said people convinced them but maybe they just did what most of their customers wanted. They spend a lot of money on R&D and this is a very deliberate action.

As I said though, there is a choice. The iPad Pro is being positioned as the iPad for the people who want to get stuff done. It’s likely to get the most Mac-like out of any other iPad. If you don’t like that experience then they have other models. It doesn’t seem right that other people don’t get anything they want because you don’t want to exercise your freedom to choose the right iPad.

I actually have been rethinking this recently and I think that my dislike of stage manager is much more about how it fails to fit into the existing iOS windowing system. I’ve been thinking some hybrid of Mission Control + Magnet (Window snapping to fullscreen/halves/and thirds) that fully replaced the existing multitasking system would have been a much better way to go.

 

[alien3dx]

I actually have been rethinking this recently and I think that my dislike of stage manager is much more about how it fails to fit into the existing iOS windowing system. I’ve been thinking some hybrid of Mission Control + Magnet (Window snapping to fullscreen/halves/and thirds) that fully replaced the existing multitasking system would have been a much better way to go.

stage manager is a joke even in mac

1. not suitable for large display
2. we got allready mission comtrol as you mention
3. we got allready multi desktop aka "spaces" and swipe between them.
4. we need dex mode unless been sue from samsung(pattern issue usa).

 

[thingstoponder]

Why do people insist on making the iPad another desktop? Just get a surface if you want a laptop pretending it’s a tablet. I like the iPad just fine the way it is.

 

[alien3dx]

Why do people insist on making the iPad another desktop? Just get a surface if you want a laptop pretending it’s a tablet. I like the iPad just fine the way it is.

Presentation meeting mostly. Laptop you cannot share easily while tablet end user can touch and reflect the tv screen same times .

** this my opinion only.

 

[jav6454]

Why do people insist on making the iPad another desktop? Just get a surface if you want a laptop pretending it’s a tablet. I like the iPad just fine the way it is.

People form the incorrect idea based on presented ads instead of doing research and understanding what they are buying into.

 

[Digitalguy]

Why do people insist on making the iPad another desktop? Just get a surface if you want a laptop pretending it’s a tablet. I like the iPad just fine the way it is.

Hope I am not opening a can of worms on an Apple centric forum, but I think this is more typical of Mac users, who don't have touch, pen support and cellular (and also less choice of ultraportable, under 1KG Macs).
People who are fine with (or even like) Windows have more options. I like my iPads to be a companion for my Windows devices, but I would never think of using them as my main device. I can have a 13in windows laptops under 1kg with cellular, decent battery life, decent speakers etc. This eliminates the portability and the cellular argument. And I can also have touch and pen.
An iPad will always be superior as pure tablet, but if you want to carry only one device on the go, honestly you have more choice and capabilities with Windows (provided that you don't hate it) and you have all the pro/desktop apps you would ever need.
Could the iPad be the ultimate device that can do everything without compromises? Better than the Surface and than any thing Windows could ever do? Yes, and it's the only device that could do it on this world, if it could both run iPadOS and MacOS (and therefore also Windows via Parallels). But this, while technically possible, will never happen.

 

[symphony]

Why do people insist on making the iPad another desktop? Just get a surface if you want a laptop pretending it’s a tablet. I like the iPad just fine the way it is.

Well, technically Apple is the one making the iPad into “another desktop”.

Do you like iPadOS 16 right now? Because iPad has been taking features and designs from a desktop for years now.

You make it so simple to just switch platforms and ecosystem as if there’s no cost or downsides.

 

[symphony]

look at that (at 51:35)

Craig is aware that people can still use iPad like how they always used it, but understands that there are a group of people who wants to push the boundaries even further and want a richer experience.

Craig gives an example that I literally gave about with overlapping windows, with his example, he mentioned how a user would use Notes while reading a small portion of text behind it on Safari.

I’m kinda shocked he used Notes and Safari as the app example I did.