Does the Surface Book have any one second thinking the iPad Pro?

[Skylitfly]

Totally 180degs disagree on that one.
The iPad is still an iPad with a very limited use case - the surface is a dual device .

Yeah. So many people doesn't get the definition of compromized. Surface isn't either great laptop nor great tablet. Especially the tablet part on Surface is truly questionable. It's a decent "laptop" thought despite the fact that it's actually awkward to use on your lap. Thats compromize. It's a hybrid device yes. But compromized laptop combined wih very compromized tablet doesn't fit with the definition of great for me.

I'd still rather pick 13" MacBook Pro + iPad over SP4.

 

[newellj]

Once you step outside of the tech bubble, very few people have as their job description "Make Powerpoint files" or "Make Excel spreadsheets". They have "make sales pitches" and "client proposals". If your client proposal is automatically generated from backend cloud applications with a few local inputs, why do you need a mouse and keyboard to do that? You're already seeing this type of behavior with the under-20 crowd even if it drives older people insane watching them peck away at a glass screen. Tools don't define how you do your job. Your job defines how you use your tools.

I agree with the first two sentences, but among my wife, kids (adults, not living at home any more) and I we have covered a pretty wide variety of industries in the last several years and none of us has ever had presentations or spreadsheets generated from some master backend. They've all required a lot of manual manipulation, and the mouse and keyboard are essential. You simply couldn't do that kind of work on an iPad, at least not if you wanted to get it done in the next six months and stay sane. I may be mistaken, but I don't think your assumption about no one needing physical input devices is representative of the majority of users, although I will admit that I haven't seen any statistics on that and would be interested in any quantitative backup you've seen.

 

[Jakeycov]

Yeah. So many people doesn't get the definition of compromized. Surface isn't either great laptop nor great tablet. Especially the tablet part on Surface is truly questionable. It's a decent "laptop" thought despite the fact that it's actually awkward to use on your lap. Thats compromize. It's a hybrid device yes. But compromized laptop combined wih very compromized tablet doesn't fit with the definition of great for me.

I'd still rather pick 13" MacBook Pro + iPad over SP4.

Yeah this "one device" thing isn't for me I don't think. I quite like having a separate device for sketching and kicking back on the sofa with. I think a Macbook Pro plus an iPad Pro is a pretty awesome combination.

 

[rowspaxe]

At the moment I have a Surface pro 3 and a type keyboard for university. But the pen sometimes doesn't work, i already have the fifth tablet because it always breaks down, then as soon as I take notes for more than ten minutes the fan is loud.

Story telling time...gather round the fire MR haters. If you want an accurate characterization of the product check out amazon comments or reddit

 

[rowspaxe]

It doesn't have to be linked exclusively to a phone OS, but neither to a desktop OS. Remember what Steve said about iPad? It's better than a smartphone, and it's better than a notebook. And a touch screen device with a desktop OS just doesn't work. Partly because it is made for the mouse (even though Windows 10 offers a special tablet mode that makes stuff a little bigger and more touch friendly), but also because it should be simple and clean.

When pixar artists tried the ipp they expressed concern about the lack of "real" software like
photoshop and toon boom on the surface. So a touch screen device with a desktop os is working for some users

 

[rowspaxe]

I ordered a Surface Book (the $2099 version) right after the event, with the Dock. Hype train pulled into station. Around $2500 total.

Why preorder with limited product info...personally I would never order a notebook without a
keyboard tryout--Apple has trounced pc's on keyboard and trackpad issues since the intel macbooks--possibly longer

 

[Mivo]

Story telling time...gather round the fire MR haters. If you want an accurate characterization of the product check out amazon comments or reddit

I have some acquaintances who get paid for writing positive reviews on sites like Amazon. A concept you seem familiar with. Story-telling time, indeed!

 

[rowspaxe]

I have some acquaintances who get paid for writing positive reviews on sites like Amazon. A concept you seem familiar with. Story-telling time, indeed!

Amazon has purchase verification on reviews...but don't let facts get in your way...its the MR way to deal with Microsoft and windows

 

[ElCidRo]

Facts please. I don't know where you get the idea watch os flopped...and iPad pro will flop.
I don't like apple watch..but when you speak on something that may challenged...you need to say with proof. It it's an opinion..then i would understand that, however, you need to say, "I think.." or "IMO."

Yes it's my opinion but a majority of the early adopters seem to agree with it. I've been participating in the applewatch subreddit since it was first announced. People love it as a watch, but there are a lot of issues at the moment. Most importantly - the apps are too slow - to the point that you won't bother to use them AT ALL. And the third-party complications are... still no where to be found, even though watchOS 2 has been available for developers for many months now.
Just a few of my issues with it:
- SLOW and useless third party apps, so slow that you won't use them in your daily life.
- no useful complications (some of the ones that were demoed are still not available)
- the way it displays multiple notifications from the same app. Say you get 2 messages in quick succession on whatsapp. I raise my Apple Watch and I see a notification from whatsapp: "you have 2 new messages". Are you kidding me? I just want to have a list of the messages in chronological order, so I can read them, see who they are from, so I can make a decision: do I pull the phone and answer or maybe it can wait. I have this amazingly smooth crown at my disposal that even if I would get 10 messages it would be so easy to scroll through all the notifications. But no. Just a stupid message that forces me to pull my iPhone. The current implementation is frustrating to say the least. The notifications are one of the only useful function of the AW for me at the moment, and even that function is frustrating to use. Just imagine that on your iPhone. Instead of the notifications displaying actual info, it would just be something generic like: you have a new email message, you have 3 new messages on facebook. The funny thing is that if you receive ONE message, it shows the message and the sender. More than one, generic message. And this is not only whatsapp, all notifications function this way.
- the honeycomb menu structure is pretty to look at, but it's cumbersome to use! Form over function. It takes forever to open the menu, wait for the animation, pan around looking for a tiny icon (this on the 42mm watch), try to press it, ooops you opened another app, press the crown again, try to press your app, phew you did it this time, wait for the app to open, and wait, and wait, your arm aches, people are staring at you, you put your arm down annoyed and cursing... A freaking horizontal list would be better!
- there is only one watch face that can show complications properly, most people seem to use it as their daily watchface - the Modular face. More digital watch faces are needed.
- the fitness counting is not reliable. I'm not really using that too much myself but a lot of people are complaining about the accuracy. Also while using it on the bike or running, it's a nightmare to use the tiny touchscreen. All the timers and fitness apps should use physical buttons. Yet there is one button that no one is using that you can't seem to assign a different function to. Well played Apple!
- the emoticons are weird and people aren't using them/the same goes for the heartbeat/or doodles. Yeah ok, no harm done. But this shows to me that Apple doesn't know what its doing and it's just throwing features to see what sticks. This used to be Samsung's approach not Apples.
I could go on and on but this is about the Surface not the Apple Watch so I'll stop there.

And don't get me started on the iPad Pro.

Like I said, I've been using Apple products for a long time. But at the moment I don't like the direction they are going in some areas. I'm satisfied with the iPhones so all is good for now.

 

[pat500000]

Yes it's my opinion but a majority of the early adopters seem to agree with it. I've been participating in the applewatch subreddit since it was first announced. People love it as a watch, but there are a lot of issues at the moment. Most importantly - the apps are too slow - to the point that you won't bother to use them AT ALL. And the third-party complications are... still no where to be found, even though watchOS 2 has been available for developers for many months now.
Just a few of my issues with it:
- SLOW and useless third party apps, so slow that you won't use them in your daily life.
- no useful complications (some of the ones that were demoed are still not available)
- the way it displays multiple notifications from the same app. Say you get 2 messages in quick succession on whatsapp. I raise my Apple Watch and I see a notification from whatsapp: "you have 2 new messages". Are you kidding me? I just want to have a list of the messages in chronological order, so I can read them, see who they are from, so I can make a decision: do I pull the phone and answer or maybe it can wait. I have this amazingly smooth crown at my disposal that even if I would get 10 messages it would be so easy to scroll through all the notifications. But no. Just a stupid message that forces me to pull my iPhone. The current implementation is frustrating to say the least. The notifications are one of the only useful function of the AW for me at the moment, and even that function is frustrating to use. Just imagine that on your iPhone. Instead of the notifications displaying actual info, it would just be something generic like: you have a new email message, you have 3 new messages on facebook. The funny thing is that if you receive ONE message, it shows the message and the sender. More than one, generic message. And this is not only whatsapp, all notifications function this way.
- the honeycomb menu structure is pretty to look at, but it's cumbersome to use! Form over function. It takes forever to open the menu, wait for the animation, pan around looking for a tiny icon (this on the 42mm watch), try to press it, ooops you opened another app, press the crown again, try to press your app, phew you did it this time, wait for the app to open, and wait, and wait, your arm aches, people are staring at you, you put your arm down annoyed and cursing... A freaking horizontal list would be better!
- there is only one watch face that can show complications properly, most people seem to use it as their daily watchface - the Modular face. More digital watch faces are needed.
- the fitness counting is not reliable. I'm not really using that too much myself but a lot of people are complaining about the accuracy. Also while using it on the bike or running, it's a nightmare to use the tiny touchscreen. All the timers and fitness apps should use physical buttons. Yet there is one button that no one is using that you can't seem to assign a different function to. Well played Apple!
- the emoticons are weird and people aren't using them/the same goes for the heartbeat/or doodles. Yeah ok, no harm done. But this shows to me that Apple doesn't know what its doing and it's just throwing features to see what sticks. This used to be Samsung's approach not Apples.
I could go on and on but this is about the Surface not the Apple Watch so I'll stop there.

And don't get me started on the iPad Pro.

Like I said, I've been using Apple products for a long time. But at the moment I don't like the direction they are going in some areas. I'm satisfied with the iPhones so all is good for now.

First, i'm glad you stated that it's your opinion.
Second, since it's your opinion, how did it technically flop? What is flop based on? Opinion or state of facts? Or hearsay?
Third, since they happened to you, do you think every experienced the same as you? or is it all individualized?

 

[matttye]

The iPad pro should have been called the iPad plus, as it's just a big iPad. Sure it has keyboard and pen accessories but what else does it do? It still runs iOS. It's not really any more powerful than my iPad Air 2.

I will not be getting an iPad pro, for that price I expect a proper computer so I'd be leaning towards a surface pro 4 which is marginally more expensive.

 

[Krevnik]

When pixar artists tried the ipp they expressed concern about the lack of "real" software like
photoshop and toon boom on the surface. So a touch screen device with a desktop os is working for some users

And a good chunk of that is inertia and lack of resources to basically re-invent the user experience from scratch for giant monolithic apps. Can you get Photoshop running on iOS? Yeah. Can you do it without rewriting a ton of UI code and changing the user experience? No.

Part of the problem I see is that we are in this position where tablet devices are getting powerful enough that they can replace ultraportables for folks. But what's missing? Some particular app. Why is it missing? Because the dev sees people using tablets for consumption. Why are they using them for consumption? because the app is missing.

The main advantage to the approach of the Surface as I see it is that it lets these apps appear on a tablet sooner, using the existing interface, albeit somewhat annoying to use because it is still very much mouse/keyboard centric. But the downside is that it does nothing to fix the gap and get tablet-friendly user interfaces into the world. And to be blunt, the folks who will bring us that sort of world is not going to be Adobe. It's going to be the smaller developers who can port quickly, and continue to grow their app organically. Not the monolithic apps that aren't willing to spend their time reimagining how their user interface will work on these devices.

The pen latency is bigger than pencil. Engaged wrote.
Surface book in tablet mode last only 3 h of usage, in laptop mode 12h of browsing the web wo dgpu
the keyboard of ipad pro is between surface pro 4 keyboard and surface book

The battery life in tablet mode is why the Surface Book is a no-go for me. For personal use, I want something that's primarily tablet, not primarily laptop. And 3 hours is just not long enough in tablet mode.

 

[fanta88]

The battery life in tablet mode is why the Surface Book is a no-go for me. For personal use, I want something that's primarily tablet, not primarily laptop. And 3 hours is just not long enough in tablet mode.

This. I was actually kind of excited about the Surface Book until the battery life stats came out. 3 hours for a tablet is terrible.

 

[TechGod]

And a good chunk of that is inertia and lack of resources to basically re-invent the user experience from scratch for giant monolithic apps. Can you get Photoshop running on iOS? Yeah. Can you do it without rewriting a ton of UI code and changing the user experience? No.

Part of the problem I see is that we are in this position where tablet devices are getting powerful enough that they can replace ultraportables for folks. But what's missing? Some particular app. Why is it missing? Because the dev sees people using tablets for consumption. Why are they using them for consumption? because the app is missing.

The main advantage to the approach of the Surface as I see it is that it lets these apps appear on a tablet sooner, using the existing interface, albeit somewhat annoying to use because it is still very much mouse/keyboard centric. But the downside is that it does nothing to fix the gap and get tablet-friendly user interfaces into the world. And to be blunt, the folks who will bring us that sort of world is not going to be Adobe. It's going to be the smaller developers who can port quickly, and continue to grow their app organically. Not the monolithic apps that aren't willing to spend their time reimagining how their user interface will work on these devices.



The battery life in tablet mode is why the Surface Book is a no-go for me. For personal use, I want something that's primarily tablet, not primarily laptop. And 3 hours is just not long enough in tablet mode.

Then get the Surface Pro 4. It is primarily a tablet first.

 

[sracer]

The iPad pro should have been called the iPad plus, as it's just a big iPad. Sure it has keyboard and pen accessories but what else does it do? It still runs iOS. It's not really any more powerful than my iPad Air 2.

I will not be getting an iPad pro, for that price I expect a proper computer so I'd be leaning towards a surface pro 4 which is marginally more expensive.

I believe that it was a deliberate act by Apple to set expectations. Calling the iPad Pro "iPad Plus" would match perfectly with what they did with iPhones. But that would leave speculation as to a "Pro" device. By calling the iPad RT the "iPad Pro", Apple is sending a clear message that no Surface-like device will be coming anytime soon.

 

[urkel]

Why preorder with limited product info...personally I would never order a notebook without a
keyboard tryout--

- Return policies.
- Preorders keep your place in line. Reviews come after. If its a product that gets universally put down then you cancel.
- People buy iPhones and iPads and MacBooks all the time without trying them so its not as big a deal as you're making it.

Apple has trounced pc's on keyboard and trackpad issues since the intel macbooks--possibly longer

- MacBook keyboard is awful. Just because you can get used to it doesn't make that statement untrue.
- Force Touch Trackpad is the most "Windows" Trackpad I've ever used. I have a 2012 MBP15 and 2015 MBP13 and this was a surprising downgrade in terms of trackpads. The trackpad "feel" the only thing I dislike about my new setup.

 

[rowspaxe]

And a good chunk of that is inertia and lack of resources to basically re-invent the user experience from scratch for giant monolithic apps. Can you get Photoshop running on iOS? Yeah. Can you do it without rewriting a ton of UI code and changing the user experience? No.

I sometimes think--hope?-- adobe will someday include a second touch ui with their x64 flagship applications. This seems easier than building from the ground up in ios. I think you underestimating the value of tried and true applications like painter and photoshop. Its also unclear if the complexity of these programs can be captured in and ios app. It seems like apple wants to explore this and has induced Adobe to join them. Let a thousand flowers bloom

 

[rowspaxe]

- Return policies.
People buy iPhones and iPads and MacBooks all the time without trying them so its not as big a deal as you're making it.

People waste the time and money of others. The try to buy crowd.

 

[TechGod]

- Return policies.
- Preorders keep your place in line. Reviews come after. If its a product that gets universally put down then you cancel.
- People buy iPhones and iPads and MacBooks all the time without trying them so its not as big a deal as you're making it.



- MacBook keyboard is awful. Just because you can get used to it doesn't make that statement untrue.
- Force Touch Trackpad is the most "Windows" Trackpad I've ever used. I have a 2012 MBP15 and 2015 MBP13 and this was a surprising downgrade in terms of trackpads. The trackpad "feel" the only thing I dislike about my new setup.

How are MacBook keyboard awful? I don't think that's true...

 

[Macalway]

I don't know. I like Surface. Own 2. But at 3.5 lbs?

Yikes. That's huge.

I like light stuff. Just me.

 

[Mystro]

Meh...not that impressed with the Surfacebook. There is a noticeable delay in the pen as they were writing with it. I just am not impressed with their execution of the product and as mentioned above they make for a terrible tablet experience. iPad Pro for my office.

 

[CjonesHouston]

I own a surface pro 3. I love it for what it does. I would never have it as my only tablet and it's not comfortable to be my only laptop. Windows 10 is wonderful. The windows app store is trash. That is why i prefer my iPad for media and games and my MacBook Air for handling personal business or work. The surface wins in my opinion. When it's time to travel for long trips. If i go out of town for a week or so I will take my iPhone 6s Plus ,iPad Mini 4 and Surface Pro 3. The Surface can do it all. It's not like a iPad or Mac. When I need to run iTunes on a desktop. You have it while traveling. If you need to do a little work or take care of some personal business when away from home. The Surface Pro 3 can handle that too. If you want to run android apps or google software. The surface pro can do that as well. If you have the extra cash. I think it is a good investment.

 

[rowspaxe]

The windows app store is trash.

Finally--something everyone can agree on!

 

[whodatrr]

There's one feature that would make me seriously consider an iPad Pro - second display.

Yeah, there are a few third party solutions, but all are clunky and have latency. If Apple were to better integrate this capability into iOS, I'd be all over it. How cool would it be to work with two reasonably-sixes displays, while traveling or setting up in areas without dedicated displays? Well, at least it'd bee cool for me. My main system is an iMac 27 with two external 27 displays, and it;s just hard to adjust to a tiny 13" while traveling.

Regarding rethinking the iPad Pro in the wake of the recent announcements, I already have an SP3, so this is yet another step. Really, Win 10 is now solid and very usable. Continuum makes switching between tablet and workstation mode a breeze. My SP3 already drives two external 27 high res displays easily. Actually, it feels every bit as powerful as my 2012 iMac 27.

But between the two (SP4 and SBooK), I think I'd take the SP4. The 3hour batt life in the SBook would bug me, and the Surface pro is now a pretty good tablet. Only issue is when literally using it on my lap. Yes, I've been in a couple of those situations (crowded conference rooms), and it's not fun. But as that's a very small percentage of my use, I'd opt for a better tablet and lighter/smaller.

The discrete GPU in the SBook is slick, and I'd love it, but not sure I'd give up on the better tablet?

What I'd love to see on the Microsoft side is a dock with an integrated GPU... LOL. But seriously, that'd be the absolute bomb!!!!

 

[Krevnik]

Then get the Surface Pro 4. It is primarily a tablet first.

In an earlier post, I mentioned if I bought any Surface, it would be the Pro 4, but it still doesn't quite match how I use a tablet most of the time.

I sometimes think--hope?-- adobe will someday include a second touch ui with their x64 flagship applications. This seems easier than building from the ground up in ios. I think you underestimating the value of tried and true applications like painter and photoshop. Its also unclear if the complexity of these programs can be captured in and ios app. It seems like apple wants to explore this and has induced Adobe to join them. Let a thousand flowers bloom

Except you still need to rebuild considerable assets from scratch in either case. Core code can be shared, but if you are rebuilding UI, you are rebuilding UI. Doesn't matter if the OS is the same. Carbon -> Cocoa is expensive, and that's the sort of change going from Win32 to Universal asks of you as a developer. And if you decide to bail on that, you get to build a touch UI yourself with zero support from the OS beyond what already exists which is pretty basic and trackpad oriented.

And at the end of the day, Universal and iOS have more in common as platforms than Universal and Win32. This is my concern, since it says "Don't want to support Universal? Sure. Keep using Win32, we don't care. We'all build devices around you instead."

Here's the thing, I understand the value of the tried and true. But it is also the reason why change is going to be horrifically slow, and the Surface's approach even has merit: because these apps are glacial to change, but have huge ability to drive parts of the market through their action, or inertia.

I honestly think a complicated app can be made to work, although I wouldn't be surprised if a 12-13" screen would play a part. And it would take much in the way of time and resources to make it work. Early PCs couldn't do anything like what PS does today, but PS was still there. It was something that grew organically over decades. So it had to tackle aspects of that growth a bit at a time as the UI got more complicated. Tackling everything at once is a gigantic undertaking. But that's also why I think smaller apps will land first (say Pixelmator) and as they grow, they will be the ones to show the way over the next couple years by organic growth while these monolithic apps try to figure out how to do everything at once.

Honestly, Apple and Microsoft are trying two approaches to get to the same place eventually. Apple is trying a clean break, and forcing devs to do it the new way or go home. Microsoft is willing to create these transitional environments that will be here for a really long time, but allows the hardware to exist today. Both have merits, and there's certainly an argument to be made that they are allowing folks to do certain things on tablet devices sooner than Apple because of it. But egad, the cost associated with doing it. That's huge in its own way. As an engineer, I'd rather have the clean break and deal with the transition that way.