EU Fines Apple $2 Billion for Anti-Competitive Behavior Toward Spotify

[wbeasley]

A couple of points

• You are seriously overestimating how much people care. Yes some will be upset if Apple pulled out of Europe, but most people buy their phones in plans. If Apple pulls out of the EU, then carriers will stop carrying iPhones immediately because of support issues. If iPhones are not available, people will just select something else when they need to update.
• iOS represents about 33% of the installed base in Europe at the moment. If they withdrew, that would fall gradually to in the region of 5-10% within 4 years as phones come up for replacement. iOS would become irrelevant in Europe in a fairly short time.
• Only die-hard fans would travel to the UK to get an iPhone. It's an island, and it will cost to get there. Very few people would go to the trouble and pay extra for a phone with no realistic warranty support. Sure there would be some people, but there won't be boatloads of iOS "refugees".
• Apple would be in a position of having to continue to support phones already sold, and maintain the App Store long after it exits the market. This would be a huge negative on the bottom line for them, but failing to honour warranty, or shutting down the App Store (the only way to avoid the DMA) would leave their reputation in tatters, and hasten their demise in Europe.

Exiting out of spite would not be beneficial to Apple in any way.

A couple of points...

Apple only need to exit their iOS devices. not their whole business.

Your figures are pure speculation. Nostradamus lives!

It wouldnt be out of spite but a business decision based on not being worth it as a market.

Apple can support the app store and decide whether they dead end features to EU or not.
They can also say the next version with alt app stores is it.
Let all the apps move to one of those stores if they want to.
There's not even much money in it to make that palatable... just a world of headaches for EU app devs.
Fortunately they can still dev apps for the rest of the world and use their expertise and make money.

So are you ready for the switch to Android if it happens?
Tell me you wont miss the nice shiny devices each year.

 

[d686546s]

Apple only need to exit their iOS devices. not their whole business.

These days the iOS devices pretty much are Apple's business. Most of their service revenue depend on them, most of their accessories depend on them.

Sure they could just sell Macs, iPads and AirPods, but that would take a significant chunk out of their European revenue.

It wouldnt be out of spite but a business decision based on not being worth it as a market.

See above. Where is the actual business sense in that? Considering that Apple is complying, even if maliciously, doesn't suggest to you that Apple ran the numbers and doesn't agree with you?

 

[M3gatron]

"a lot of users" on another tech bashing subgroup?

r/europe subreddit has almost 6 million members my friend and around 3k active users at any given time. So it's much larger than MacRumors, if you want more perspective.
And its a general subreddit that discusses all kind of stuff(economical, political, social etc.)
So it gives a way more clear image of the opinions of average EU citizen than you can imagine.

Seriously, as someone else said, the masses dont know or care what DMA is. Or steering.
Nor want an alt app store.

Its a forum basically, people discuss news. When asked and presented with the information most Europeans will side with EU's rules regarding competition not with private companies in general. I say this as somebody that knows how Europeans think and has actually seen their opinions regarding this subject.

The comments on here are never representative of society.

if you are talking about MacRumors than yeah, you are corect.

Most people wouldnt even understand what the EU is fining Apple for.
It was on all the news casts here today. Even my partner went "what's that about?" so I explained and that was it. no questions, no comments.

They are not idiots, the primise is simple and is Spotify competing with Apple Music and the fact that Spotify has certain restrictions vs Apple Music.
I mean you sugested europeans could protest in favor of Apple(if they were to leave the market) which is quite franckly ridiculous and shows you don't have any knowledge of how europeans are.

Spotify can crow as loudly as they want. But remember most of their complaints had already been dismissed or watered down. The EU couldnt even call Apple a monopoly

What complains have been dismissed? If I recall corectly this is their only real complain, for which Apple is being fined 2 billion dollars.
I don't undestand why you think EU wanted to call Apple a "monopoly" in the first place.

You might all think the public wont protest.

Have you ever seen europeans protest in favor of a company that was fined for uncompetitive behaviour? I'm curious.

Maybe, maybe not. They dont understand what this is about but when a product 50% of them buy by choice gets pulled from shelves

This is why we have media, press. Those who want to know will be able to find put and what they will learn is that Apple left the EU because they didn't wanted to follow the local rules and legislation.

are they going to blame Apple or the EU? I can choose what I want to buy now, the rest of the world can too. What if EU citizens suddenly couldnt?

Of course they are going to blame Apple. Apple would be the ones leaving because they don't want to follow the law.

Perhaps Apple should just quickly ramp up the number of UK stores for all the abroad users who might drop in

Yeah, I dont undestand why you think this is a good idea or a solution to anything.

 

[j26]

A couple of points...

Apple only need to exit their iOS devices. not their whole business.

Your figures are pure speculation. Nostradamus lives!

It wouldnt be out of spite but a business decision based on not being worth it as a market.

Apple can support the app store and decide whether they dead end features to EU or not.
They can also say the next version with alt app stores is it.
Let all the apps move to one of those stores if they want to.
There's not even much money in it to make that palatable... just a world of headaches for EU app devs.
Fortunately they can still dev apps for the rest of the world and use their expertise and make money.

So are you ready for the switch to Android if it happens?
Tell me you wont miss the nice shiny devices each year.

The figures are based on iOS usage statistics in Europe as a whole - the EU will probably be slightly lower as the UK is dragging the average up, so thanks for correcting that - it's probably closer to 27-31%. Hardly Nostradamus levels of prediction going on there though 😀 The predicted drop is based on an average 3-4 year upgrade cycle for phones, which seems reasonably intuitive to me, possibly erring on the long side, but I'm also trying to account for some people holding on to their iPhones for longer as a result of direct replacements not being available. I still maintain 5-10% is the range where it would be after 4 years.

If Apple runs ANY kind of App Store in the EU, then it's subject to the DMA. That's a plain and simple fact. To avoid the hassle and cost they'd have to shut up shop. Deadending the App Store would not be good for their reputation, and hasten the demise, and that bad reputation could easily spread to their other lines -iPads, Macs etc. iPhones have been drivers of Mac sales.

The majority of major Devs have Android versions already. Only the smaller ones would lose out. The majority will still be making money. For the consumer the choice would be simple - the pretty phone that can't do what I need Vs the (arguably) less pretty one that does. Many people don't have a computer any more and rely solely on their phone for their computing needs. The ability to do stuff is more important than the looks.

 

[OriginalAppleGuy]

Pretty much what I expected to see here. Many people from the EU defending the EU. Surprising, though, how quickly those from the UK responded as they voted themselves out of the EU.

Back in the 80's/90's I was for the European Countries coming together to build a common economy. Was cautious, though, as combined, their economy would be huge. I'm wondering if that's such a good idea now. The UK was smart to leave. From what I can see, seems they are shooting themselves in the foot. Perhaps they have to go after companies like Apple with countries like Italy, Greece, etc. being such a drain on the EU coffers.

Spotify, however, is and always will be a crap company to me. They offer nothing I find valuable and should die on the vine. They wouldn't be anything without Apple - wouldn't even exist.

 

[wbeasley]

The figures are based on iOS usage statistics in Europe as a whole - the EU will probably be slightly lower as the UK is dragging the average up, so thanks for correcting that - it's probably closer to 27-31%. Hardly Nostradamus levels of prediction going on there though 😀 The predicted drop is based on an average 3-4 year upgrade cycle for phones, which seems reasonably intuitive to me, possibly erring on the long side, but I'm also trying to account for some people holding on to their iPhones for longer as a result of direct replacements not being available. I still maintain 5-10% is the range where it would be after 4 years.

If Apple runs ANY kind of App Store in the EU, then it's subject to the DMA. That's a plain and simple fact. To avoid the hassle and cost they'd have to shut up shop. Deadending the App Store would not be good for their reputation, and hasten the demise, and that bad reputation could easily spread to their other lines -iPads, Macs etc. iPhones have been drivers of Mac sales.

The majority of major Devs have Android versions already. Only the smaller ones would lose out. The majority will still be making money. For the consumer the choice would be simple - the pretty phone that can't do what I need Vs the (arguably) less pretty one that does. Many people don't have a computer any more and rely solely on their phone for their computing needs. The ability to do stuff is more important than the looks.

So you see the side effect of the EU decision would be Apple closing up shop and then there WOULD be an Android monopoly

So much for the EU wanting competition...

You still didnt say how prepared you are personally to not have access to new iOS devices.

 

[j26]

Thee UK was smart to leave.

And yet 56% of them think it was the wrong thing to do according to the most recent Statista report at the start of March this year.

 

[cupcakes2000]

Android monopoly

Android is an open source os not a company - there are more than several makers with their own implementations of it. There are several appstores available, and you can download an app from anywhere.

It’s not a monopoly and it doesn’t have the restrictions that Apple are being controlled for.

 

[j26]

So you see the side effect of the EU decision would be Apple closing up shop and then there WOULD be an Android monopoly

So much for the EU wanting competition...

You still didnt say how prepared you are personally to not have access to new iOS devices.

Personally I'd like to see if Harmony OS would be any good😁😁😁

I use Macs and iPads and my kids have iPhones. I use Android phones though.

I, myself wouldn't miss iPhones, but I would miss my iPad Mini if it were no longer available as there is currently no equivalent high quality small Android tablet.

 

[M3gatron]

The UK was smart to leave.

That's a good joke. Things are clear as times goes by.

Brexit poll 2025| Statista

The share of people who regret Brexit has increased since the UK left the EU. Recent polls show a growing majority think it was the wrong decision.

www.statista.com

 

[wbeasley]

r/europe subreddit has almost 6 million members my friend and around 3k active users at any given time. So it's much larger than MacRumors, if you want more perspective.
And its a general subreddit that discusses all kind of stuff(economical, political, social etc.)
So it gives a way more clear image of the opinions of average EU citizen than you can imagine.



Its a forum basically, people discuss news. When asked and presented with the information most Europeans will side with EU's rules regarding competition not with private companies in general. I say this as somebody that knows how Europeans think and has actually seen their opinions regarding this subject.

if you are talking about MacRumors than yeah, you are corect.


They are not idiots, the primise is simple and is Spotify competing with Apple Music and the fact that Spotify has certain restrictions vs Apple Music.
I mean you sugested europeans could protest in favor of Apple(if they were to leave the market) which is quite franckly ridiculous and shows you don't have any knowledge of how europeans are.


What complains have been dismissed? If I recall corectly this is their only real complain, for which Apple is being fined 2 billion dollars.
I don't undestand why you think EU wanted to call Apple a "monopoly" in the forst place.


Have you ever seen europeans protest in favor of a company that was fined for uncompetitive behaviour? I'm curious.


This is why we have media, press. Those who want to know will be able to find put and what they will learn is that Apple left the EU because they didn't wanted to follow the local rules and legislation.


Of course they are going to blame Apple. Apple would be the ones leaving because they don't want to follow the law.


Yeah, I dont undestand why you think this is a good idea or a solution to anything.

3k active users is still not anywhere near reading the public. election polling would find it difficult to make predictions on such a small and niche group.

I dont care if EU citizens protest or not. they do seem pretty ready to protest almost anything they dont like their governments do. we whinge and whine but dont take to the streets here.

The EU tried to call Apple a monopoly but that didnt work out because they arent. so they changed the word to a vague Gatekeeper...

If Apple leave, the EU directive has backfired. It resulted in LESS competition and made Android the monopoly.

People can blame Apple for leaving if they want, but if doing business there is too costly and affects your business elsewhere sometimes it's better to prune a branch than lose the whole tree.

Have you planned how you will cope if you cant get access to new iOS devices and apps?
Sure life will go on and youll resent Apple but they were hit by the fine.

Anyway, the past is always a good indicator or what will happen.
The EU has tried things before and lost or significantly backed down and reduced fines.
More than likely this will happen again when they realise the consequences of Apple leaving would be or that they overstepped to start with. So you might not need to switch to AndroidRumors.com just yet

 

[cupcakes2000]

The UK was smart to leave.

Worst decision in the history of the once great country. It’s not a decision that should have been offered with a yes/no referendum in the first place, and now with no seat at the table to help steer the nations on our doorstep, we have no say in anything. For anyone to think it’s a good idea, regardless of one’s opinion on the eu in general, is not only folly but bordering stupidity. Please note im not calling you personally stupid.

 

[j26]

The EU has tried things before and lost or significantly backed down and reduced fines.
More than likely this will happen again...

This bit I agree with, but not necessarily for the same reasoning. 2bn does seem excessive to me.

 

[wbeasley]

Personally I'd like to see if Harmony OS would be any good😁😁😁

I use Macs and iPads and my kids have iPhones. I use Android phones though.

I, myself wouldn't miss iPhones, but I would miss my iPad Mini if it were no longer available as there is currently no equivalent high quality small Android tablet.

So an Android branched Chinese OS? Hmmmm. No concerns about security then?
And getting that Harmony OS onto an iOS device? Is Apple going to allow an alt app store to load it?

Not sure I'd want to listen to kids who use iPhones find out they cant get them any more... LOL.

There are plenty of little android tablets. It's a good sized form factor when traveling.
Not iPad quite but they run apps and do the basics.

The EU are playing games currently. Like theyve done before.
And like before they will back down and reduce the fine or Apple will make some small change that contributes nothing and saves face for the EU.

Spotify was crowing today.
They havent won though. They dont get the money.

And they lost a paid subscriber as I converted to a free account.
They never delivered on high res promises in last two years. Too busy buying stupid podcasts and fighting legal battles.

Perhaps Apple could just boot their app from app store?
"We hear the EU and dont want to compete against a company that thinks we are acting unfairly".
They could remove all apps for other music streamers unless they say they are OK with the current system and terms they already signed up to.

I cant wait to see the Epic Fail that the other EU directive is forcing on Apple.
Another company that deserves 100% of nothing.

 

[wbeasley]

This bit I agree with, but not necessarily for the same reasoning. 2bn does seem excessive to me.

I like how the EU calculated the 2b...

took Apples WorldWide revenue into account.
hahaha. if EU market share of Apple revenue is 25% then what gives them the right to the other 75%?

 

[M3gatron]

3k active users is still not anywhere near reading the public. election polling would find it difficult to make predictions on such a small and niche group.

Now you are just making excuses for the sake of making excuses.

I dont care if EU citizens protest or not. they do seem pretty ready to protest almost anything they dont like their governments do. we whinge and whine but dont take to the streets here.

Have you ever seen Europeans protesting in favor of companies "to be able to do what they want"?
Europeans protest in relation to social and economical problems that directly affect their lives and future in general not in favor of gadgets companies to not follow laws.

The EU tried to call Apple a monopoly but that didnt work out because they arent. so they changed the word to a vague Gatekeeper...

Where did they try to call apple a monopoly?

If Apple leave, the EU directive has backfired. It resulted in LESS competition and made Android the monopoly.

The result is a company that doesn't want to respect the laws regarding competition leaving.
The result is other companies that will follow the rules will step in and fight for the large and lucrative European market.

People can blame Apple for leaving if they want, but if doing business there is too costly and affects your business elsewhere sometimes it's better to prune a branch than lose the whole tree.

Apple leaving the EU will be way way more costly and it will irreversibly shrink Apple's entire revenue and profits. Basically they will decrease the size of their company and lose a large chunk of their revenue which they will never be able to recover from somewhere else. A lose-lose situation.

Have you planned how you will cope if you cant get access to new iOS devices and apps?
Sure life will go on and youll resent Apple but they were hit by the fine.

Yeah I already use a combination of Windows - Android and Apple devices. I will be fine. Most europeans will be fine.

Anyway, the past is always a good indicator or what will happen.
The EU has tried things before and lost or significantly backed down and reduced fines.

Really? like in what situations did the EU "back down"?

More than likely this will happen again when they realise the consequences of Apple leaving would be or that they

You are amusing to think that Apple, a company that mainly sells consumer electronics is so important that would force a union of countries to change the stance they had for decades about competition.

overstepped to start with. So you might not need to switch to AndroidRumors.com just yet

Europeans won't consider in general that EU overstepped anyway.
And isn't Macrumors a US site? Your suggestion with "AndroidRumors.com" doesn't make sense.

 

[j26]

So an Android branched Chinese OS? Hmmmm. No concerns about security then?
And getting that Harmony OS onto an iOS device? Is Apple going to allow an alt app store to load it?

I'm curious about the new version of Harmony OS - not the Android fork. I dunno, but Huawei seem to be doing good stuff with ecosystems at the moment. I do know I loved my Huawei phones before they were forced out of the market.

Not sure I'd want to listen to kids who use iPhones find out they cant get them any more... LOL.

Not relishing that myself 😁😁😁

There are plenty of little android tablets. It's a good sized form factor when traveling.
Not iPad quite but they run apps and do the basics.

None nearly as good as the iPad Mini 6 though. Apple has that niche sewn up.

 

[wbeasley]

I'm curious about the new version of Harmony OS - not the Android fork. I dunno, but Huawei seem to be doing good stuff with ecosystems at the moment. I do know I loved my Huawei phones before they were forced out of the market.

Not relishing that myself 😁😁😁

None nearly as good as the iPad Mini 6 though. Apple has that niche sewn up.

Having has an iPad min 1,2,4,5 and 6 I think I can say i love the form factor and the 6 is the best by far. except they should have put an M1 chip in. and a Magic Keyboard would have made a perfect little traveling office tool

 

[DaPhox]

Just because alternatives exist doesn't mean a company can't be considered a monopoly e.g., Microsoft was declared a monopoly in the 1990s despite there being alternatives like Mac OS, OS/2, Linux, BeOS, etc.

Even if Apple isn’t a "monopoly", they do have a dominant position in mobile OS as part of a duopoly with Google/Android and deserve antitrust scrutiny regarding their anticompetitive behavior. A company doesn't necessarily need to be a "monopoly" (how that is defined can vary) to face antitrust fines, litigation, etc.

What does ”mono” mean?

 

[jimothyGator]

What does ”mono” mean?

I've been taking extensive notes from both the EU and US DOJ, and I've determined "mono" means "very popular among consumers, and by virtue of that popularity, making a lot of money which we'd really like to get our hands on"

Ancient Greeks might have a different definition, but if they knew how to fleece innovative companies, maybe they'd still be around!

 

[j26]

What does ”mono” mean?

Either "one" or the "Kissing Disease"...

Monopolistic power is excessive power in a marketplace - that's what the EU is trying to curb.

 

[webkit]

Microsoft was not found to have a monopoly on operating systems. The ruling was that they had a monopoly on web browsers for Windows.

The judge ruled that Microsoft had a monopoly in computer operating systems. As far as browsers, the judge argued that MS used that monopoly power to unfairly try to control/dominate the browser market.

Microsoft's share of the computer OS market was higher to much higher than its share of the browser market in the mid to late 1990s.

This was still ridiculous, because other web browsers were readily available for Windows. Very few people, including the DOJ, seem to know or care what “monopoly” means.

As far as the definition of "monopoly", there can be different types of monopolies with various factors applying to a designation. A company can still have monopoly power even though there are alternatives in that market.

 

[webkit]

What does ”mono” mean?

I am well aware what "mono" means but there are different types/designations of monopolies and it doesn't always refer to one single company in a market. A company can still have monopoly power even though there are alternatives in that market. In some cases, "mono" refers more to a single dominant company than just a single company.

 

[wbeasley]

Either "one" or the "Kissing Disease"...

Monopolistic power is excessive power in a marketplace - that's what the EU is trying to curb.

if Apple pulled out, poor Android would be a monopoly by default.
They better watch out of they will get EU slapped

A law supposedly designed to increase competition could backfire and reduce it.
Be careful what you wish for EU.

So the UK would stay and be the big winner in Europe.
Apple could still take in 30% of the income it currently makes just with UK stores.
And the UK stores could grow to accommodate lost continental sales.

Of course there would be job losses too, Sadly.

Or Apple could just absorb the fine and increase EU prices. Same profit. Easy option. Less impact on users or sales.
With a token olive branch allowing some lame popup about buying subs outside the store.
I'd add an extra message from Apple that outside processing errors and fraud and refunds need to be addressed with the app company not Apple

 

[j26]

if Apple pulled out, poor Android would be a monopoly by default.
They better watch out of they will get EU slapped

A law supposedly designed to increase competition could backfire and reduce it.
Be careful what you wish for EU.

Android is more like an infrastructure that other manufacturers put their UI on. Anyone can use Android and not put Google Services on it. You can deGoogle your phone if you like, although it is getting harder with Google bundling more services that Apps use. There are also several App Stores on Android - I have 3 on my current phone.
Lastly Android itself is free, and doesn't have monopolistic power like Apple does.
If it changes in the future, then it might be subject to restrictions and if it ultimately pulled out of Europe we'd have to rely on EUOS, God help us!

View attachment 2355695

So the UK would stay and be the big winner in Europe.
Apple could still take in 30% of the income it currently makes just with UK stores.
And the UK stores could grow to accommodate lost continental sales.

Of course there would be job losses too, Sadly.

That chart just serves to irritate me - 6,000 Apple employees in Ireland, the European HQ is located here, and not one Apple Store in what is one of the richest states in the EU and is, per capita, very similar to the UK in iOS ownership.
I can never do a walk in warranty repair. That bugs me.

Or Apple could just absorb the fine and increase EU prices. Same profit. Easy option. Less impact on users or sales.
With a token olive branch allowing some lame popup about buying subs outside the store.
I'd add an extra message from Apple that outside processing errors and fraud and refunds need to be addressed with the app company not Apple

I see that happening. People will then just decide whether the more expensive phone is worth it.