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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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🤣 YES! I'm very particular about my wallpapers (for all devices) as I think they really can be a major contributing factor to eye fatigue. I find ones like this to be very disorienting. My eyes don't know where to go or what to do. I'm more of a simple background guy so these types of wallpapers have way too much going on. Especially when trying to handle an OLED, haha. My eyes are doing enough work with that.
I never got travel sickness with 14 Pro Max. But I definitely had it with 13 Pro.
I also had an equilibrium disturbance from my 11 Pro but I didn’t realize it at the time. As I have mentioned before (sorry to those who already know the story) I kept having balance and coordination issues and fell down the stairs twice the year I had that phone. I was actually afraid of breaking the phone so my family bought me the cheaper SE2020 for Mothers Day.
I have a couple of friends who have MS and they were concerned for me. I tried to open a discussion with my doctor about it but he just shot me a look and said “You’re very clumsy.”
My first fall down the stairs was so bad that I had a blackened shin that was still black almost a year later and I was trying to ask him if that was normal for the leg to be so discolored after almost a year and he just shrugged and said yes of course, like I was the biggest idiot. He’s an extremely highly rated doctor and my husband is a bit frustrated I don’t get along better with him and my husband really likes him. So…whatever. He’s not as horrible as some doctors I’ve had and he’s been useful when he’s in a decent mood so I cope or just use the clinic.
I have a LOT of trauma baggage from a very bad past with a couple of doctors in particular that is very serious stuff and too heavy for this thread.
So I uncharacteristically did not say anything more and shut down and left it at that. I figured if I have something serious but needs greater investigation, I don’t even care anymore rather than deal with more abuse and humiliation over something that can’t be diagnosed instantly. Fortunately stopping use of the 11 Pro ended the weird neurological symptoms.
This crap is truly depressing and awful. I’m so sorry for everything everyone is going through with it. I admit I feel a little “survivor’s guilt” today because I’m able to use the 14 Pro Max and so many of you are really struggling. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for everyone here who is trying to get along with these devices we need for our work and just navigating modern life.
Yeah that background gives me a headache looking at it on my LCD phone that doesn’t otherwise bother me. The default backgrounds/colors on Mac OS Big Sur and Monterey do also for some reason.
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If you do purchase it, make sure you get the Pro version, which appears to be sold out to be able to measure flicker.I am also becoming more skeptical about Notebookcheck.. there is a device on Amazon that can be used to measure display properties.. also PWM. am considering buying it.
Cheap device to measure color temperature of light / flashlights (Opple Light Master 3 PRO )
The Opple Light Master is probably the most affordable and coolest device to measure CCT and CRI of light. The color temperature in Kelvin, and CRI in Ra for about $30-$50, and is a great gadget for flashlight users and light measuring enthousiasts.1lumen.com
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I have to admit, when I first read this I scoffed because ever since dark mode was an option, I have vastly preferred it. However, that was on LCD screens. This latest evaluation with a 14 pro, I’m trying out a lot of different things. Throwing out the rulebook.
Things like disabling true tone, which I’ve always run on other screens and just this morning, I took your observation and tried turning off dark mode. I’ll be damned if my eyes don’t feel a little bit more relaxed. I thought I was firmly in the dark mode forever camp. I think maybe at night I might still occasionally run dark mode, but in light mode, as long as I have the brightness down, it doesn’t cook my eyes. Also, this is the second 14 Pro that I’ve tried and the first one was really cooler temperature and had really harsh whites. This screen I guess seems warmer and it’s not as piercing. Anyway, thanks for the tip. I’m also trying promotion or not.
After seeing that notebook check review I’m going to give the 14 another try. I had Covid while I had the 14 so I can’t be sure the migraines were from the phone. Doubting myself now.
But I had to return that 14 anyway because the screen had an image retention defect so I don’t feel bad about trying again.
But I had to return that 14 anyway because the screen had an image retention defect so I don’t feel bad about trying again.
Do you use any specific settings (disable attention for faceid, white point setting, true tone? And at what percentage do you set your brightness)
Let’s not split hairs: 60Hz PWM isn’t good news, as a lower rate should lead to increased sensitivity. That’s with the exception that Apple hasn’t improved it elsewhere, such as by targeting significantly lower amplitudes.
I expect it to be the usual garden variety PWM we’re used to, unless we have a user that wants to go measure the pulsations of all the latest iPhone 14 models; wow, we sound like nerds.
From the front page regarding Apple’s rumored AR glasses/goggles:
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Micro-OLED displays are built directly onto chip wafers rather than a glass substrate, allowing for a thinner, smaller, and lighter display that's also more power efficient compared to LCDs and other alternatives.
Apple's design will block out peripheral light, and display quality will be adjusted for peripheral vision to cut down on the processing power necessary to run the device. Apple will be able to reduce graphical fidelity at the peripherals of the headset through the eye tracking functionality being implemented.
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Maybe this implementation will be different than the iPhones…but the idea of 2 Apple OLED displays a mere inch or two from each eye for extended periods of time…yikes!
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4K Micro-OLED Displays
Apple is using two high-resolution 4K micro-OLED displays from Sony that are said to have up to 3,000 pixels per inch. Comparatively, Meta's new top of the line Quest Pro has LCD displays, so Apple is going to be offering much more advanced display technology.Micro-OLED displays are built directly onto chip wafers rather than a glass substrate, allowing for a thinner, smaller, and lighter display that's also more power efficient compared to LCDs and other alternatives.
Apple's design will block out peripheral light, and display quality will be adjusted for peripheral vision to cut down on the processing power necessary to run the device. Apple will be able to reduce graphical fidelity at the peripherals of the headset through the eye tracking functionality being implemented.
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Maybe this implementation will be different than the iPhones…but the idea of 2 Apple OLED displays a mere inch or two from each eye for extended periods of time…yikes!
Hey John I notice at the end you mentioned trying with and without promotion turned on. Please keep us posted if you notice anything. And anyone else willing to see how you feel with and without it, could you please weight in? I thought promotion was slick and thoroughly enjoyed it. Everything felt so fluid. Going in, I truly didn't think I would even notice. But, I also wonder if it maybe contributed to my slight nausea. I honestly don't think it caused me eye discomfort, but I question if it just made things move 'too' quickly for my aging eyes to where it made me feel slightly ill.
I found with the 14 Pro Max that I am more comfortable with True Tone off. I have disabled Attention Aware and the setting requiring your eyes to be open to unlock the phone. I KNOW with absolute certainty that subjecting my eyes to the Face ID IR beams makes my eyes feel dry and gritty and hurt and give me a feeling of achy eye strain.
I can’t play around with the Animoji at all.
I have not needed to adjust the white point setting at all. So that’s on default.
I have auto brightness on. I seem comfortable at any brightness.
So far, that’s been true of any OLED iPhone I’ve used that I’ve been able to adjust to, like the 12 Pro Max.
Nerds we are, but then there is this. I had someone a few minutes ago respond to an old YouTube video I had uploaded showing the bars and flickering on the 13 Pro last release. He had a question on whitepoint, and it made me think of us.Let’s not split hairs: 60Hz PWM isn’t good news, as a lower rate should lead to increased sensitivity. That’s with the exception that Apple hasn’t improved it elsewhere, such as by targeting significantly lower amplitudes.
I expect it to be the usual garden variety PWM we’re used to, unless we have a user that wants to go measure the pulsations of all the latest iPhone 14 models; wow, we sound like nerds.
I was proud when I was suggesting he come to this thread. I explained the topics we cover, the degrees to which we have educated ourselves, and how we really have morphed into family of sorts where no question is considered dumb (unless it's some smart ass comment from a non-sufferer), we are respectful to each other, and basically that we have covered just about every angle regarding the topic.
So even if we are the outcasts, the minority, etc., we are also a hell of a resource for others who haven't known where to turn, are new to the experience, etc. I love when I see someone in reddit reference this thread. We make a difference even if it's one we wish we weren't included in
standard 14 being delivered Sunday to try, if that fails I think I’ll have to go with another 13 pro. Still feeling dizzy when I use the latest lcd iPhones, 5 days with the se 2022 and now a week with the standard 11.
I’d be returning this refurb 11 to Apple anyway, all around the opening of the lightning port digs in to your finger as the edge is rough instead of smooth. I don’t use a case anymore which would cover this up.
I’d be returning this refurb 11 to Apple anyway, all around the opening of the lightning port digs in to your finger as the edge is rough instead of smooth. I don’t use a case anymore which would cover this up.
You mean that abhorrent floopy "arm" wallpaper? I'm dizzy from it's horribleness. 🤣
First it was the sideways booty wallpaper, then the fetus face... and now we have the dangly appendage.
you're not alone! the 11 gave my head a warm feeling... a rush of warmth.... and it made my left eye feel fatigued and sore.
Hello again.... reporting back after three days on the 14pro of about four hours screen usage each day.
It's just a minor irritant in my eyes, which is completely ignorable, especially since I've just grown to love the phone and its promotion and camera tech. Funny enough, I used the 11 pro for two months with no issue, then used the 13 mini for about two weeks before getting the 14pro, and the pain was sharper in my eyes with the 13 mini compared to the 11pro... and then WENT AWAY after a few days...
I think this lends some weight to the theory of everyone's eyes are different, and every iphone version has different PWM, and it takes some time to adjust and get used to the flickering... and once your brain does get used to it, it is mostly non-existent.
It makes me wonder if most people aren't even aware of PWM issues with these OLEDs and chalk up their eye pain/fatigue/whatever to "I've just been staring at a tiny screen all day. My eyes are watering and hurt because I've been looking at my iphone too much". Or another theory: most people just aren't affected by the flickering screen through ignorance, or genetics.
Anyways.... Sorry that y'all still have issues with the 14 line. I was hoping for the best after the 13 mini cleared things up for me (mostly) compared to the 12 mini.
Here's hoping the recent posts about trying/retrying 14 models will have a good experience for you.
If I could offer any suggestion, is to really, really try to will the discomfort to go away. I.E. try to really WANT to keep the phone and see if that can overpower any discomfort you may feel... and give it 3-4 days of adjustment to see if your brain adjusts.
Best of luck
It's just a minor irritant in my eyes, which is completely ignorable, especially since I've just grown to love the phone and its promotion and camera tech. Funny enough, I used the 11 pro for two months with no issue, then used the 13 mini for about two weeks before getting the 14pro, and the pain was sharper in my eyes with the 13 mini compared to the 11pro... and then WENT AWAY after a few days...
I think this lends some weight to the theory of everyone's eyes are different, and every iphone version has different PWM, and it takes some time to adjust and get used to the flickering... and once your brain does get used to it, it is mostly non-existent.
It makes me wonder if most people aren't even aware of PWM issues with these OLEDs and chalk up their eye pain/fatigue/whatever to "I've just been staring at a tiny screen all day. My eyes are watering and hurt because I've been looking at my iphone too much". Or another theory: most people just aren't affected by the flickering screen through ignorance, or genetics.
Anyways.... Sorry that y'all still have issues with the 14 line. I was hoping for the best after the 13 mini cleared things up for me (mostly) compared to the 12 mini.
Here's hoping the recent posts about trying/retrying 14 models will have a good experience for you.
If I could offer any suggestion, is to really, really try to will the discomfort to go away. I.E. try to really WANT to keep the phone and see if that can overpower any discomfort you may feel... and give it 3-4 days of adjustment to see if your brain adjusts.
Best of luck
I had the chance to use my friend's iPhone 14 for a longer stretch this evening. After about 20 mins just browsing around in Safari, I started to get a tension headache. I think it's safe to say both the 14 Pro and standard 14 lines are a no go for me this year. I'm going to bow out of this thread for my own well-being to stop obsessing over it and hope next year is better. Thanks for all the support everyone! Fingers crossed this eventually gets fixed so those of us with XR/11s can upgrade before our Phones eventually get dropped from iOS support.
What I don't understand, the iPhone 13 Pro and the iPhone 14 Pro have DC dimming. Then why isn't our eyes/head better? Is it the motion display or something else? I have been using dark mode for years, I should change that. Funny, why do I tolerate the iPhone 12 Pro so well, but the iPhone 13 and 14 Pro not even though they have integrated DC dimming at high level? Questions about questions! I tolerate the iPhone 14 Pro Max quite well, but it's too big for me. I think about whether I will test the iPhone 14 Pro again and really give my brain a few weeks to get used to it. It has damn DC dimming again!
I’ve only tried the iPhone 12 Pro Max from that generation, which was nearly the same as iPhone X in terms of headaches.
iPhone 12 Pro’s display on the other hand is described as “Apple does not refer to this as DC dimming but rather uses a very complex finely tuned display controller to reduce the effects of PWM as much as possible.” So maybe there is a reason some users have gotten on better with iPhone 12 Pro.
iPhone 12 Pro: Pulse Width Modulation for the OLED Display
Just like all OLED displays the iPhone 12 Pro’s will also be utilizing Pulse Width Modulation for brightness regulation. We took a closer look at it and would like to present you with our findings.
We’re all going to be sensitive to different frequencies and implementations, although I haven’t found a sweet spot on any of the OLED iPhones where I could keep it without getting constant and eventually persistent tension headaches. It is improving slightly generation-to-generation.
Notebookcheck’s reference to DC dimming on iPhone 13 Pro and iPhone 14 Pro is slightly confusing to me, as these iPhones still have discernible flicker and amplitudes in excess of 10%. If I had just read their descriptions and not already tried these iPhones I would think that Apple fixed the issue on these models.
Considering Apple’s future investments in OLED and micro-OLED, they need to figure out how to develop a flicker-free brightness controller sooner rather than later.
OLED televisions are flicker-free, so there’s no technical reason that the panel can’t be driven by voltage-based DC dimming. Perhaps there are drawbacks, but it’s technically possible to drive these OLED panels without PWM or flickering.
All of that being said, we could say that Apple is ignoring us. Yet they have been making minor improvements every year, and I do think iPhone 13 was the first time we saw a diligent effort by Apple to create a solution: they advertised a ‘New display engine’ quite proudly at the keynote, then iPhone 13 Pro had 510Hz quasi-DC dimming as well as iPhone 13 Mini and 610Hz on iPhone 13.
Unfortunately none of these devices worked significantly better for me to the point I could use one without constant or persistent headaches. As one of the most sensitive users it’s understandable, but that means that we still don’t have a real solution. It’s almost like they pulled back slightly on iPhone 14 once they realized that was the case, and hopefully we see the display team attempt a similar level of improvement on iPhone 15–and this time create a definitive solution that works for every PWM-sensitive user.
Unfortunately none of these devices worked significantly better for me to the point I could use one without constant or persistent headaches. As one of the most sensitive users it’s understandable, but that means that we still don’t have a real solution. It’s almost like they pulled back slightly on iPhone 14 once they realized that was the case, and hopefully we see the display team attempt a similar level of improvement on iPhone 15–and this time create a definitive solution that works for every PWM-sensitive user.
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To my understanding, DC dimming does not remove the flickering completely and will not solve the pwm problem for most of the users in this forum, only the less sensitive ones. Explanation Here.
It was painted as our Holy Grail, but it really is not.
Look at the new profile of the new Zenfone 9 for example, which is DC dimmed and I still could not use:
THe flicker is constant at 120hz, which means I did not have raging headaches straight away but only dizziness and brain fog when I tried the phone (or maybe I did not try it long enough for those crazy headaches). That did not make it usable and eventually I returned it.
What we want is something like the iphone 8 plus, which does not flicker ever never forever:
I have seen many complain about notebookcheck's results about the flicker rate, but that does not really make sense. The way you react to the flicker is very personal and might be related to other factors, e.g. tiredness etc. Trying the device is probably the only way to determine your reaction to it. Things will not likely improve unless you completely remove the flicker. A different frequence does not really change things significantly imo.
I am very sensitive it seems, specially if I am tired, and I can feel dizziness even when using devices with 50000 hz refresh rate. At work we have so many meeting rooms with flickering screens, and I am usually able to survive those without problems when rested, since I do not stare at them too long. My phone however is different, I use it for so many things and for so long everyday, that even a very low flickering will affect me in the long run.
Now, as many have complained in this thread and in here, PWM is not the only problem for some of us.
It seems that newer lcd phones and apple display also use another digital trick called temphoral dithering ( Dithering Device vs non-Dithering Device) to make that sweet million of colours reproduction. The way I see it, it is a "colour flickering" causing similar symptoms to PWM, albeit milder.
The group of people affected by dithering is even smaller than the pwm crowd I suspect, so good luck hoping that Apple will improve things in the future.
To be honest, the future is bleak for sensitive apple users.
Both technologies give clear advantages, the way I see it, being those better power management or better colour reproduction. Why would Apple not offer these things to the hundred of millions of customers that have zero problems with such displays? One of their strategies has always been to have a small lineup, it lowers the manufacturing costs, mantainance etc etc. Our group is way too small to make financially sense for them.
Ps. someone correct me if I said something factually wrong, I think we are all learning here.
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Its completely right the the pwm rate is not important for many of us. I do have a samsung lcd tv with 240hz flicker. A big 55inch tv in a dim room agressively flickering in my face for hours and hours... gives me..... NO issue at all after getting used to it for a few months.
A small tiny iphone 13 mini for example gives me the worse nausia i ever had within 2min of usage.
A small tiny iphone 13 mini for example gives me the worse nausia i ever had within 2min of usage.
Report from yesterday's full day usage: unfortunately I had some headache towards the end of the day. I can feel the tension near my temples for most of the day. Again, I was on computer all day and had to use the phone for work as well. I really really like this new phone so I'm telling myself I can adjust to it (hope that's not wishful thinking). Today will be my day 3 on this phone, I will report back Sunday night to see how this weekend goes for me, since I will in general have less screen time (on a computer).