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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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i don't think the iPhone 16 will have a microLED. I think in 2024 or 2025 the Apple Watch ultra will come with a Microled Screen. A year later the iPhone will get the microLed screen so in 2025 or 2026 with the iPhone 17 or 18. It will probably use PWM because Apple doesn't care about people who are PWM sensitive
I don’t know if slow mo and noticing the moving lines is any kind of indication. I just took a small recap before 15s launch.
-Among 14 line, 14 non pro has the slowest moving lines. 14 plus faster than 14. 14 pros same fast moving lines like GS23 ultra
-iPhone 13 to my surprise didn’t have any moving lines at all like iPhone 11
-Nothing Phone 2 a little bit slower lines than non pro 14
www.veed.io
-Among 14 line, 14 non pro has the slowest moving lines. 14 plus faster than 14. 14 pros same fast moving lines like GS23 ultra
-iPhone 13 to my surprise didn’t have any moving lines at all like iPhone 11
-Nothing Phone 2 a little bit slower lines than non pro 14
IMG_9502.mov
I've tested quite a few phones (12, 13, and 14 series) and I noticed no moving lines and no flicker on slow-mo video of the 13 Pro that I used to have- which is weird, knowing that it does still have PWM that is around the same frequency as other models. I don't know why it or the regular 13 you tested would show like this!I don’t know if slow mo and noticing the moving lines is any kind of indication. I just took a small recap before 15s launch.
-Among 14 line, 14 non pro has the slowest moving lines. 14 plus faster than 14. 14 pros same fast moving lines like GS23 ultra
-iPhone 13 to my surprise didn’t have any moving lines at all like iPhone 11
-Nothing Phone 2 a little bit slower lines than non pro 14
IMG_9502.mov
When I compare my 13 Mini and my wife's 14 Plus side by side in slow-mo video, the flicker is dramatically reduced on the 14 Plus.... my 13 Mini looks like a little strobe light, it looks terrible- but yet the 14 plus has just some "gentle" looking flicker.
I know that is not scientific at all, but it seems that would mean her 14 Plus would be just a bit easier on the eyes... and I have hope that we are taking another step in the right direction with the 15 series.
I am about to pull the trigger on a regular (non-pro) 15 preorder now, for store pickup this weekend. I'll test it out for a couple of weeks and see what I think, though as others have said- I hate the hassle and am worried I'll really like it but have to return it because it's no better than my 13 Mini (or perhaps worse) as far as eye discomfort goes.
I have followed and contributed to this thread, it is most useful. A side question if I may, I wonder if anyone who suffers with PWM also finds the same problems with mirrorless digital camera viewfinders from Sony, Nikon and others? which also use OLED screens? I am reluctant to purchase one due to this potential issue.
All of the iPhone OLED screens for me are currently unusable, hoping the 15 might change that. Need to catch up on the thread as been out of the loop for a while!
Sorry this is off topic, hard to know where else to ask as most just think you are being ridiculous or need to get an eye test
All of the iPhone OLED screens for me are currently unusable, hoping the 15 might change that. Need to catch up on the thread as been out of the loop for a while!
Sorry this is off topic, hard to know where else to ask as most just think you are being ridiculous or need to get an eye test
Interesting question about the OLED viewfinder on mirrorless cameras.I have followed and contributed to this thread, it is most useful. A side question if I may, I wonder if anyone who suffers with PWM also finds the same problems with mirrorless digital camera viewfinders from Sony, Nikon and others? which also use OLED screens? I am reluctant to purchase one due to this potential issue.
All of the iPhone OLED screens for me are currently unusable, hoping the 15 might change that. Need to catch up on the thread as been out of the loop for a while!
Sorry this is off topic, hard to know where else to ask as most just think you are being ridiculous or need to get an eye test
I have not used one so I don't have my own experience (I'm still on a Nikon DSLR), but I have read on more than one review of Nikon mirrorless cameras a mention of some people having eye strain with the OLED viewfinder.
They never went into any detail at all on it, but that quick mention was interesting- and of course having already been following this thread and knowing about PWM, I figured it was not surprising that this may be bothering some people. (fortunately you look at that viewfinder for far less time than you would a phone, so I would hope it is far less impactful than an OLED phone would be).
Alternatively, with a mirrorless what you could do is look at the display on the back for live view when taking pictures instead of using the viewfinder if it is problematic- as that back display is still LCD from what I understand.
Thanks for replying, similar here, still on Nikon DSLR. I have read a few brief mentions of people noticing it but nothing solid yet, refresh rates are around 60-120Hz. Indeed the rear LCD would be fine but for my use viewfinder would be essential sadly. Interesting to see if anyone has direct experience, maybe the smaller screen area would reduce the effect.
Yeah, I would have to think that the brief amount of time you look into the viewfinder before looking away again may minimize impact, even for those that are quite sensitive.
Hard to say, though. I agree with you, doing live view on the rear display would not be ideal as a permanent solution- maybe I'm just old school, but I have to use the viewfinder when taking shots.
Still evaluating the Moto Razr + after purchase Monday afternoon. I haven't used it alot quite frankly, trying to give my eyes time to adjust. My screen on time the first day was just 1:45, not counting the small screen which I'm using ALOT. When I tried the 14 Pro Max last year I returned it the day after I bought it because I woke up with a headache. I did not wake up with a headache with the Razr. I have not had headaches or eyestrain. But then again I haven't exposed myself to it for hours and hours. The PWM profile of the phone looks like this.
Last year's 14 is this at max brightness. 480 hz and at half brightness this drops to 240 hz.
Good article here....it's android-centric but goes in some technical detail about flicker:
www.androidcentral.com
Note the max frequency and modulation depth of the PWM of these phones. I do believe it's the case the shallower the modulation the better it is for the eyes. A shallow drop is in stark contrast to something like the Samsung Flip where the PWM goes down to 0. It's a blurry screen to me. I find it weird that most people don't see it it as I do. The best thing about Razr actually is the promotion right now at AT&T. $0 down, no trade-in, $10 per month for 36 months. That's a six pack a month. I asked the salesguy working with me how many he's sold. One. LOL! He can't remember the number of Samsung flips. Anyway I'm still interested in the 15. I will look at it in store.
Last year's 14 is this at max brightness. 480 hz and at half brightness this drops to 240 hz.
Good article here....it's android-centric but goes in some technical detail about flicker:
Best phones for PWM/flicker sensitive people
Get rid of those headaches by getting the right phone.
www.androidcentral.com
Note the max frequency and modulation depth of the PWM of these phones. I do believe it's the case the shallower the modulation the better it is for the eyes. A shallow drop is in stark contrast to something like the Samsung Flip where the PWM goes down to 0. It's a blurry screen to me. I find it weird that most people don't see it it as I do. The best thing about Razr actually is the promotion right now at AT&T. $0 down, no trade-in, $10 per month for 36 months. That's a six pack a month. I asked the salesguy working with me how many he's sold. One. LOL! He can't remember the number of Samsung flips. Anyway I'm still interested in the 15. I will look at it in store.
WEIRD ISSUE
So Iv been using my iPhone 11 2 years
No issues feels nice to use
Smashed the glass got the phone replaced by insurance
New phone has given me an eye ache and similar symptoms to PWM how the hell is this even possible it’s an iPhone 11 Iv been ok with?
Guys any help?
So Iv been using my iPhone 11 2 years
No issues feels nice to use
Smashed the glass got the phone replaced by insurance
New phone has given me an eye ache and similar symptoms to PWM how the hell is this even possible it’s an iPhone 11 Iv been ok with?
Guys any help?
I have switched to Sony mirrorless from a pentax dslr in 2018 and the oled viewfinder massively bothered me, I even put off buying one first due to the flickering and I only bought it after I’ve found a fix and tried it in the store. I’m also bothered by led light flickering and OLED pwm etc.I have followed and contributed to this thread, it is most useful. A side question if I may, I wonder if anyone who suffers with PWM also finds the same problems with mirrorless digital camera viewfinders from Sony, Nikon and others? which also use OLED screens? I am reluctant to purchase one due to this potential issue.
All of the iPhone OLED screens for me are currently unusable, hoping the 15 might change that. Need to catch up on the thread as been out of the loop for a while!
Sorry this is off topic, hard to know where else to ask as most just think you are being ridiculous or need to get an eye test
I don’t know if this workaround works for all cameras, it does work on my Sony a7III: I’ve switched from PAL mode (50hz) to NTSC (60hz) and the flickering is gone.
I wished it was this easy too on an iPhone! But I do prefer LCD over Oled due to Color accuracy too, so I’m hoping for an SE in iPhone 11 style with LCD screen
Thank you for sharing! This is fantastic information.Still evaluating the Moto Razr + after purchase Monday afternoon. I haven't used it alot quite frankly, trying to give my eyes time to adjust. My screen on time the first day was just 1:45, not counting the small screen which I'm using ALOT. When I tried the 14 Pro Max last year I returned it the day after I bought it because I woke up with a headache. I did not wake up with a headache with the Razr. I have not had headaches or eyestrain. But then again I haven't exposed myself to it for hours and hours. The PWM profile of the phone looks like this.
Last year's 14 is this at max brightness. 480 hz and at half brightness this drops to 240 hz.
Good article here....it's android-centric but goes in some technical detail about flicker:
Best phones for PWM/flicker sensitive people
Get rid of those headaches by getting the right phone.
Note the max frequency and modulation depth of the PWM of these phones. I do believe it's the case the shallower the modulation the better it is for the eyes. A shallow drop is in stark contrast to something like the Samsung Flip where the PWM goes down to 0. It's a blurry screen to me. I find it weird that most people don't see it it as I do. The best thing about Razr actually is the promotion right now at AT&T. $0 down, no trade-in, $10 per month for 36 months. That's a six pack a month. I asked the salesguy working with me how many he's sold. One. LOL! He can't remember the number of Samsung flips. Anyway I'm still interested in the 15. I will look at it in store.
I am in the Apple ecosystem so it would be difficult (especially having an Apple Watch), but it looks like the OnePlus and the Motorola Edge look to be winners here.
Were the iOS versions the same on both phones? There seemed to be a change somewhere in the iOS 16 series that made previously perfectly comfortable phones no longer usable for the reasons you list. I had it happen on two identical 1st Gen iPads that I have. I updated to iOS 16.5 and got the familiar symptoms immediately. The non updated one has remained fine.
Because of this I've not updated my SE 2022 from 16.1 (I can use it very comfortably)
My guess:
Screen Lottery
Your new screen is made for iPhone 11 but it’s not identical to the one that got busted
What insurance? Who replaced it? What is the source of the replacement display?
The whole phone is actually refurbished from apple? Does screen lottery really matter? And what is screen lottery? Less dithering?
Please be very specific.
Did you go to Apple directly, or are you saying that a 3rd party business told you the display they used came from Apple directly?
Last edited:
I also had the chance to check out multiple devices earlier, and I found the Galaxy Flip easier on the eyes than the Galaxy Fold. I still don’t like Android or its interface/app optimization, but the display on the Fold looked breathtaking for images. No immediate sensitivity at max brightness. Also no Razr available to play with, although my next move could very well be trying one of these phones if iPhone 15 is unmanageable.
There was an iPhone 14 Pro and iPhone 14 Pro Max available to demo of course, and sensitivity at max brightness on the Max wasn’t too bad in a store. However, once I enabled auto-brightness I could visibly see flicker as the brightness adjusted—I almost forget just how sensitive and perceptible I am to these iPhones.
I also had the chance to play with an iPad Pro 12.9” since there’s some FOMO in the back of my head and it wasn’t too bad—I only started to notice a hint of a headache with a video playing. I’ve heard anecdotal reports that the Mini LED display has gotten easier on the eyes with iPadOS 17, but I’d take that with a grain of salt.
As far as the productivity of this Costco trip, I still need to remind myself that I greatly prefer the Max size to the standard 6.1” size—in retrospect there has been no iPhone with a 6.1” display where I’ve enjoyed the form factor compared to the 5.4” mini or the 6.7” Max. I sometimes think that I should have kept the iPhone XR, but I’d still be in the same PWM-sensitive place today and ready for an upgrade.
As an aside, the Mac lineup makes all of the Windows computers on display look laughable. There is no competition. Although the MacBook Pro 14” and 16” Mini-LED were the only devices to give me obvious headaches.
I’m pretty much ready to order an iPhone 15 Pro Max in either Natural Titanium or Blue Titanium, and prepared for the end result. It’s funny since I still get unreasonably excited enough that I may end up with one of these in my hands on Friday.
It’s through my bank - they only use apple it comes with apple care- you can go in apple and get your replacement
Because the back was cracked they sent a replacement phone it gets delivered from
Apple
Direct
But im hoping my screen smashes again and this time I go go apple
Direct in store and get the screen replaced only
Not that it will make a difference because this whole
Phone is refurbished from apple
I am thinking back to last year when I decided I wanted to try getting away from OLED phones due to some mild eye strain, and try the SE 2022.
I bought an SE 2022 at the Apple store in the first week of October last year.
I set it up and used it for a week, maybe two- with no issues at all.
I foolishly got the idea that I should return it and decide for a while if I wanted to keep my 13 Pro or try something else.
I decided later- this time in late October or early November- that the SE was my favorite of the ones I had played around with, and I really felt better knowing the display was LCD with no PWM.
I picked up another SE, and I suspect at this point the iOS version was 16.1 (it had to be 16.0 on that first one, since it was the beginning of October?) and that's when I surprisingly had very noticeable eye strain on it right out of the box. I tried it for a full week, and every time I looked at it, my eyes felt like they were stinging- would get dry, and yet watery.
I traded for another, and same issue. I traded for yet another, and same exact issue.
I then tested out a couple of iPads- the 10th generation and Air 5th generation (neither have PWM), and same exact issue. So I returned all of those.
I have heard mention of iOS 16.1 and above being the culprit on these LCD devices, with a minority of us having issues with those devices after that update. Does that seem to sound right for others who have had this problem- that your LCD phone was fine for you even up to 16.0, but it was 16.1 and above that became a problem?
And are there any rumors you've heard of that this issue may be corrected with 17?
I bought an SE 2022 at the Apple store in the first week of October last year.
I set it up and used it for a week, maybe two- with no issues at all.
I foolishly got the idea that I should return it and decide for a while if I wanted to keep my 13 Pro or try something else.
I decided later- this time in late October or early November- that the SE was my favorite of the ones I had played around with, and I really felt better knowing the display was LCD with no PWM.
I picked up another SE, and I suspect at this point the iOS version was 16.1 (it had to be 16.0 on that first one, since it was the beginning of October?) and that's when I surprisingly had very noticeable eye strain on it right out of the box. I tried it for a full week, and every time I looked at it, my eyes felt like they were stinging- would get dry, and yet watery.
I traded for another, and same issue. I traded for yet another, and same exact issue.
I then tested out a couple of iPads- the 10th generation and Air 5th generation (neither have PWM), and same exact issue. So I returned all of those.
I have heard mention of iOS 16.1 and above being the culprit on these LCD devices, with a minority of us having issues with those devices after that update. Does that seem to sound right for others who have had this problem- that your LCD phone was fine for you even up to 16.0, but it was 16.1 and above that became a problem?
And are there any rumors you've heard of that this issue may be corrected with 17?
I’ve oddly heard of some users having better luck with iPad displays on iPadOS 17. But it’s very much individual, as I’ve also heard reports of iPhone 14 feeling as comfortable as a LCD to some previously sensitive users.
Sorry to hear about the iPhone SE, as it causes 0% sensitivity for me—as in none at all, even if it has temporal dithering.
Trying taking a slo-mo video and see if you notice any oddities with the display.
It sounds unlikely for a replacement LCD display to cause issues unless it’s defective.