Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[esaelias187]

Trying taking a slo-mo video and see if you notice any oddities with the display.

It sounds unlikely for a replacement LCD display to cause issues unless it’s defective.

Yh thats why I’m confused as hell I’m thinking to get the screen replaced again but see no point

 

[Artvandelay1212]

You can pretty much count on the likelihood that the first smartphone to use Micro LED won’t be an iPhone.

It's just what this one video was saying based on their "sources"

 

[Artvandelay1212]

i don't think the iPhone 16 will have a microLED. I think in 2024 or 2025 the Apple Watch ultra will come with a Microled Screen. A year later the iPhone will get the microLed screen so in 2025 or 2026 with the iPhone 17 or 18. It will probably use PWM because Apple doesn't care about people who are PWM sensitive

Probably. I know they don't care.

 

[esaelias187]

Trying taking a slo-mo video and see if you notice any oddities with the display.

It sounds unlikely for a replacement LCD display to cause issues unless it’s defective.

I can maybe just get lcd replaced from apple I guess or swap my mums old iPhone 11 she’ll be happy with a new one using my iPhone 8 right now no issues

 

[jm31828]

I’ve oddly heard of some users having better luck with iPad displays on iPadOS 17. But it’s very much individual, as I’ve also heard reports of iPhone 14 feeling as comfortable as a LCD to some previously sensitive users.

Sorry to hear about the iPhone SE, as it causes 0% sensitivity for me—as in none at all, even if it has temporal dithering.

I'm glad to hear the SE works well for you!
It is odd that the PWM situation only impacts a relatively small number of us, and what I feel with some of these Apple LCD devices is an even smaller subset of people.

I was dumbfounded as to how it was absolutely fine, not even a hint of an issue for those two weeks I tried the SE initially when it was still on 16.0.... So it made no sense as to why it bothered me so much (honestly it was more of a noticeable bother than I had with my 13 Pro or my current phone- 13 mini- with PWM).

Some of this is starting to make sense, and I am somewhat hopeful that maybe iOS17 (and iPadOS17) might change things.
Of course then I would have to decide- is it worth trying out an SE again when that hardware is getting pretty old, or do I want to forge ahead and really see if the 15 with some of the newer hardware that I want is going to work for me.

The answer is that I likely will preorder the 15 and pick it up at a local Apple store this weekend (surprisingly I still show Saturday pickup dates at most of my local Apple stores for the regular 15).

Thanks for the note about iPadOS17- I had been wanting a tablet and thought iPads were off the table after what I experienced last winter- but maybe I'll try the cheap 9th gen the next time it drops to $250 at Costco (seems to do that each month for a while).

 

[now i see it]

And what is screen lottery?

Screen Lottery is the idea that its like a Lottery if you get a good screen. They are not all identical. Its just luck... like a lottery. And at this point, going on 4 years with the iPhone 11, its a sure bet that the screens in circulation now are not the same as the ones 4 years ago. They may be manufactured by a different company by now. Different components, different backlight..
LCD screens can thrash the nervous system just like the OLEDS. It may not be due to PWM flickering, but there's plenty of other ways to wreak havoc.

 

[Abiyork]

I have followed and contributed to this thread, it is most useful. A side question if I may, I wonder if anyone who suffers with PWM also finds the same problems with mirrorless digital camera viewfinders from Sony, Nikon and others? which also use OLED screens? I am reluctant to purchase one due to this potential issue.

All of the iPhone OLED screens for me are currently unusable, hoping the 15 might change that. Need to catch up on the thread as been out of the loop for a while!

Sorry this is off topic, hard to know where else to ask as most just think you are being ridiculous or need to get an eye test

I am a full time photographer and use Nikon Z6ii mirrorless and have my eye glued to the viewfinder many hours in a day and no issue. TBH until I read your message I wasn't aware of OLEDs in use.

 

[esaelias187]

Screen Lottery is the idea that its like a Lottery if you get a good screen. They are not all identical. Its just luck... like a lottery. And at this point, going on 4 years with the iPhone 11, its a sure bet that the screens in circulation now are not the same as the ones 4 years ago. They may be manufactured by a different company by now. Different components, different backlight..
LCD screens can thrash the nervous system just like the OLEDS. It may not be due to PWM flickering, but there's plenty of other ways to wreak havoc.

Yh I’ll jus try replacing screen again

 

[orbitalpunk]

I saw on a YouTube video that the iPhone16 Ultra coming next year might have microLED which I believe is the next type of screen after OLED. Anyone know if this type of screen uses PWM? Could this be what we've been waiting for or just more of the same?

microLED should be fine. completely different from OLED. Im stuck on iphone11 but my iPad Pro with miniLED is just fine.

 

[PurpleIsAFruit]

I keep checking this thread daily hoping that I'll find someone saying one of the 15 devices isn't giving them any symptoms. I can live in hope, right? 🤪

 

[jimmy_uk]

I keep checking this thread daily hoping that I'll find someone saying one of the 15 devices isn't giving them any symptoms. I can live in hope, right? 🤪

Next week......

 

[johnscully]

I keep checking this thread daily hoping that I'll find someone saying one of the 15 devices isn't giving them any symptoms. I can live in hope, right? 🤪

Or that iOS 17 is better in this regard than iOS 16.

 

[PwmMen]

My iPhone 15 Pro Max arrives tomorrow, and like every year, I have hope.
This year the PWM frequency is twice as high as last year, which makes me positive,
because I tolerated the iPhone 14 Pro Max relatively well, with only eye pain after 2-3 hours of use.
I hope that the iPhone 15 Pro Max will be bearable enough for me to keep it. If not, I'll test the iPhone 15 Plus.
If both don't work, then I feel sorry for Apple and the Motorola RAZR 40 Ultra will be tested.

 

[ocean10]

I am thinking back to last year when I decided I wanted to try getting away from OLED phones due to some mild eye strain, and try the SE 2022.

I bought an SE 2022 at the Apple store in the first week of October last year.
I set it up and used it for a week, maybe two- with no issues at all.

I foolishly got the idea that I should return it and decide for a while if I wanted to keep my 13 Pro or try something else.
I decided later- this time in late October or early November- that the SE was my favorite of the ones I had played around with, and I really felt better knowing the display was LCD with no PWM.

I picked up another SE, and I suspect at this point the iOS version was 16.1 (it had to be 16.0 on that first one, since it was the beginning of October?) and that's when I surprisingly had very noticeable eye strain on it right out of the box. I tried it for a full week, and every time I looked at it, my eyes felt like they were stinging- would get dry, and yet watery.

I traded for another, and same issue. I traded for yet another, and same exact issue.
I then tested out a couple of iPads- the 10th generation and Air 5th generation (neither have PWM), and same exact issue. So I returned all of those.

I have heard mention of iOS 16.1 and above being the culprit on these LCD devices, with a minority of us having issues with those devices after that update. Does that seem to sound right for others who have had this problem- that your LCD phone was fine for you even up to 16.0, but it was 16.1 and above that became a problem?

And are there any rumors you've heard of that this issue may be corrected with 17?

There is a post on www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive talking about this. Not sure anyone has been able to pinpoint exactly when it changed. I have an older iPad Pro that started giving me strain as soon as I updated to 16.5. Hadn't used it in a while and tried 16.6.1 last night. Maybe felt "slightly" better but overall still nothing like it was where I could use it for hours with no problems. Now I feel uncomfortable almost immediately.

I have an iPhone SE 2022 that is running 16.1.1. I get no strain from it and can use it for hours with no issues.

 

[kargurin]

Last year's version had pwm at 480 hz at max brightness and 240 at half brightness. I posted that earlier. It seems to be the same for the 15 or I'm missing something.

 

[jm31828]

Have any of you found any good data on these displays on not just the PWM frequency, but what the modulation depth is as well? (since I have seen documentation stating that anything above about 5% modulation is where it starts to become more uncomfortable for sensitive users)? I'd love to find that type of data on the 15 series when they come out, but it seems what scraps of info we are able to find are just the PWM frequency, when both that and the modulation depth are really the two critical bits of information.

 

[now i see it]

Have any of you found any good data on these displays on not just the PWM frequency, but what the modulation depth is as well?

A test with the Radex Lupin flicker meter will reveal that. Patience - the data will come soon.

 

[jm31828]

A test with the Radex Lupin flicker meter will reveal that. Patience - the data will come soon.

View attachment 2272846

Thanks. Yeah, I was actually struggling to find any of that data even for older models- except an occasional random Youtube video I might run into where someone is measuring that.

 

[jm31828]

Last year's version had pwm at 480 hz at max brightness and 240 at half brightness. I posted that earlier. It seems to be the same for the 15 or I'm missing something.

It is possible, though, that even if the PWM frequency is the same, that the flicker modulation could be different (more shallow, which would be easier on the eyes).
Not sure how soon we'll find out, it seems there is usually quite a delay after launch before we start seeing any trickle of this type of data becoming available online. (unless I am just not aware of the right places to look)

 

[kargurin]

Absolutely. I read that Samsung Z flip has 99.5% modulation and 240hz at all brightness levels. Which means that the pwm frequency goes practically to zero. The iPhone 14s are around 14% to 20% (depending on brightness setting). When I picked up the Sammy flip this week and looked at text it was blurry as heck.

 

[Chuckles55]

I've given up on the idea of Apple coming out with a phone that I can use. I'm to the point now of maybe buying an iphone 13 and getting an LCD screen installed. It will ruin the trade in value but it seems like that is my only option anymore.

 

[ocean10]

I've given up on the idea of Apple coming out with a phone that I can use. I'm to the point now of maybe buying an iphone 13 and getting an LCD screen installed. It will ruin the trade in value but it seems like that is my only option anymore.

I've seen that in a few places (on Reddit r/PWM_Sensitive I think) For someone it seems to have worked but others still had issues. If you do it please post the results here.

 

[jm31828]

I've seen that in a few places (on Reddit r/PWM_Sensitive I think) For someone it seems to have worked but others still had issues. If you do it please post the results here.

Yeah, good point- is it the display itself that controls the PWM, or is it the chip in the phone (along with the software) telling the display to flicker? I would have thought changing the OLED display out to an LCD will still act the same way, not because the display itself has to- but because it's how the phone is programed to treat the output to the display.

 

[jm31828]

Absolutely. I read that Samsung Z flip has 99.5% modulation and 240hz at all brightness levels. Which means that the pwm frequency goes practically to zero. The iPhone 14s are around 14% to 20% (depending on brightness setting). When I picked up the Sammy flip this week and looked at text it was blurry as heck.

So 99.5% modulation means only 0.5% depth on that modulation- am I reading that correctly?
240hz seems low for the PWM, but I wonder if the modulation depth is so minimal, that the frequency doesn't really mean much?

 

[kargurin]

It means the wave modulates from 240hz to next to 0. It’s as deep as it possibly can be. And it happens to be a square wave. I saw an image of it some days ago and I can’t find it now.