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CocoPlops999

macrumors member
Feb 5, 2021
30
15
Got the CMF 1 on Saturday and unfortunately I don’t feel great using it.

Trying to figure out if I should be using it under 25% for the 960 PWM or over 25% for the dc like diming


It’s pretty snappy to be fair, I’m not holding out much hope
 

Abiyork

macrumors regular
Sep 16, 2012
159
177
My iPhone SE 2022 is sold.
I stay with the iPhone 16 and don't go back.
The new technology and the display are simply a dream.
Really happy for you.

If I had such luck and found something that worked I would disable automatic IOS updates forever.

Stick with the phone and software which is good.
 

Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
236
I don’t t
Got the CMF 1 on Saturday and unfortunately I don’t feel great using it.

Trying to figure out if I should be using it under 25% for the 960 PWM or over 25% for the dc like diming


It’s pretty snappy to be fair, I’m not holding out much hope
I don’t think cmf 1 is a great phone for sensitive people.
 
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Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
236
My iPhone SE 2022 is sold.
I stay with the iPhone 16 and don't go back.
The new technology and the display are simply a dream.
Very happy for you. I will receive my 16 tomorrow and will report soon. I don’t have any hope. But I’m receiving it from work so I will use it as a second phone. For basic task it will be fine. For all day social media consumption or YouTube it won’t work.
 

2keane

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2021
7
11
Perth
Couple people have tested privacy screen protectors, so going to give that a go with my 16 for the 2nd week of testing. Not sure it’s PWM or maybe just light sensitive as I don’t really like too much brightness on my monitors, tvs etc.
 
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Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
236
Very happy for you. I will receive my 16 tomorrow and will report soon. I don’t have any hope. But I’m receiving it from work so I will use it as a second phone. For basic task it will be fine. For all day social media consumption or YouTube it won’t work.
So I’m currently writing this on my iPhone 16. I chose the ultra marine color and boy it’s gorgeous! I have a mixed feelings with this iPhone. I’m playing on this iPhone for 30 mins +/- now. And it does feel more relaxed for my eyes then my wife’s 16 pro. But i do feel a weird tinteling in my forehead. And I have been testing my wife’s pro for some days. With the 16pro I got very dry eyes after watching YouTube clips after 30 min but no tinteling or whatsoever. And I also notice that this phone feels slower due to the 60hz screen. And that’s weird because I’m coming from a 11 that also uses a 60hz screen. Despite that it feels so good to have a new and a modern phone with a gorgeous OLED display. Everything feels smoother and better and the sound is so much louder. I’m using the 11 for 5 years now and this is definitely a significant needed update. My wife’s pro does feel and look more premium with the titanium body, AOD and the 120hz but so far I’m just happy I can use a modern phone. I will be testing this phone more these days and will give you guys an update soon.

Im using this phone with 90% brightness and RWP 80%.
 
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DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
1,777
1,391
So I’m currently writing this on my iPhone 16. I chose the ultra marine color and boy it’s gorgeous! I have a mixed feelings with this iPhone. I’m playing on this iPhone for 30 mins +/- now. And it does feel more relaxed for my eyes then my wife’s 16 pro. But i do feel a weird tinteling in my forehead. And I have been testing my wife’s pro for some days. With the 16pro I got very dry eyes after watching YouTube clips after 30 min but no tinteling or whatsoever. And I also notice that this phone feels slower due to the 60hz screen. And that’s weird because I’m coming from a 11 that also uses a 60hz screen. Despite that it feels so good to have a new and a modern phone with a gorgeous OLED display. Everything feels smoother and better and the sound is so much louder. I’m using the 11 for 5 years now and this is definitely a significant needed update. My wife’s pro does feel and look more premium with the titanium body, AOD and the 120hz but so far I’m just happy I can use a modern phone. I will be testing this phone more these days and will give you guys an update soon.

Im using this phone with 90% brightness and RWP 80%.
When i use an OLED phone first symptoms kick in the first morning. I usually wake up with dry eyes.
 
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Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
236
When i use an OLED phone first symptoms kick in the first morning. I usually wake up with dry eyes.
Yes I’m curious if I will have the same effects later. But I’m planning to use this phone for simple tasks like messaging calling light surfing and writing emails. I got this phone from my work. For media consumption and social media etc I will keep using my 11, or another lcd phone or a mini tablet.

I have seen many mixed testresults here so I don’t know which test is true. But based on my first experience I don’t think this phone uses 480hz PWM. It think this phone uses a lower frequency with a very low modulation or a hybrid kind of dimming. The pro uses a 480hz and that’s why I don’t get tinteling in my forehead. And it does have a bad modulation hence the dry eyes.
 
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du57in

macrumors regular
Sep 7, 2022
129
220
Yes I’m curious if I will have the same effects later. But I’m planning to use this phone for simple tasks like messaging calling light surfing and writing emails. I got this phone from my work. For media consumption and social media etc I will keep using my 11, or another lcd phone or a mini tablet.

I have seen many mixed testresults here so I don’t know which test is true. But based on my first experience I don’t think this phone uses 480hz PWM. It think this phone uses a lower frequency with a very low modulation or a hybrid kind of dimming. The pro uses a 480hz and that’s why I don’t get tinteling in my forehead. And it does have a bad modulation hence the dry eyes.
If NBC can be trusted, you are correct. They say 256 on the Plus but with very low modulation. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...esign-and-lots-of-buttons.895629.0.html#toc-9
 
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from reddit the_top_g

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2023
73
267
Hi guys. It has been a while and I am glad to see the community is as active and lively as ever. It is great to see some of the familiar faces as well. Online community presence for this flickering phenomenon is growing steadily and it wouldn't have been possible if not from each of the individual's collective efforts. Thank you for some of the DMs and reference of me from time to time. It is really appreciated and I genuinely am.

This will be quite a long post as I have quite a few things to update.

Researchers specialized on this flickering phenomenon is on track. Firstly, to inform that current flickering measurement standards do not represent the real world. Secondary, to demonstrate that those with migraine/ heightened sensitivity are much more subsceptive to flickering. Thirdly, to propose a new measuring flickering standard to the industry.

For those that wish to have a glimpse to this new standard, called PAVM(
PHANTOM ARRAY VISIBILITY MEASURE), here are the links below.

SVM showed poor correlation to actual participants scores
https://www.lee.org/flicker/wp-cont...23-lightinghumanfactorsflicker-pnnl-royer.pdf

An early first look into PAVM (table 3, page 9 shows results)
https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2024-05/ssl-tan-etal-2024-lrt_tlm.pdf

PAVM was designed to include those higher sensitivity to flickering.

A PAVM of score 0 indicates no flicker, while 0.5 would be safe for the the average people, regardless of their task activity (I may be wrong on the exact figure)

Hopefully in future, screen manufacturers can use this regulated guideline as reference for producing eyestrain free screen. I believe companies themselves have a make a stricter guideline for screens, for users are staring directly into a light source.

Now I bring the not-so-good news.

The future of the iPhones series appears to be bleak. Should reports of 2025's all iPhone 17 move to LTPO panels were true, then those that had success with the plus/ regular models today would be pushed out of the Apple ecosystem.

The reason is because — at present, the regular models are running LTPS OLED panels, while the pro models are LTPO. LTPS OLED has been in the market longer than LTPO, and allows modification to mitigate flicker.

LTPO panels in contrast were designed to flicker from the beginning.

Tandem OLED, or think of it as LTPO 2.0, was introduced to address this ~ by staking 2 lower powered LTPO OLED. It does not seem to be of help much. Some even claimed the experience was worse than a typical OLED.

As of now, little progress can be made to LTPO in regards to eyestrain. While some smartphones manufacturers have made claims of achieving higher hertz on LTPO panels, they were false as they were simply slotting in more black frame (complete screen ON and OFF) into low frequency LTPO to pass off as higher hertz.

Oneplus did claimed that their next flagship OP13 will be using BOE's new X2 ltpo panel and would have an increased emphasize on eyestrain. However, I wouldn't keep my hopes high. As it does not seem realistic to produce a LTPO panel without its flaws in such a short time. Doing so would have to have redesigned LTPO from the ground up.

Can we call a leopard a leopard if it does not have any spots? This is something good to think about.

Additionally, because LTPO can can run at a low 1 hertz, rendered text may look fuzzy or jumpy — especially to those that were more sensitive. While it is possible to program LTPO panel to run at a targetted 120 hertz etc, LTPO were designed to run at 1 hertz before overclocking itself to 120 hertz etc, according to system needs. A system may still report a fixed 120 hertz despite the screen occasional slip to 1 hertz.

This occasion suddden slip disrupts a sensitive user's vestibular system. Hence causing symptoms of dizziness and poor balance etc. 1 hertz would not have mattered much to LCD panels since text on LCD panels are stable as long as a user not interact with it. OLED however, are constantly refreshing per second, regardless of user interaction.

The Chinese online community are actively bringing up on this LTPO panel concern. Their voice were heard and thus phones like Honor 200 and Xiaomi 14T pro continue with LTPS OLED panels. Phones like the Honor Magic series used LTPO mainly to target the western market.

For some iphone users, following the complete transition to LTPO, the last usable OLED iphone may be the iphone 16/iphone 16 plus.

We are seeing a return of 2020, following the complete transition to OLED. The last usable iPhone was 11, followed iPhone se(2022). In the near future, The last remaining usable iPhone would be the 16/16plus, followed by iPhone se(2025).

It appears that Apple's vision today is spearing toward the forefront of technology specifications. Their priorities have changed. In the past, their philosophy was to design and make products that would work seamlessly for human. At present today, it is looking more like us humans work for products.

I expect this flickering phenomenon for the iphones to persist for the next decade. (If I'm being extremely optimistic, probably half a decade). Only then, will I return to the Apple ecosystem. For I do not see myself obliged to put up with the side effects such as headaches, dry eyes, blurred vision and worst of all — cognitive impairment.
 
Last edited:

kerplunknet

Cancelled
Oct 8, 2006
836
1,885
Hi guys. It has been a while and I am glad to see the community is as active and lively as ever. It is great to see some of the familiar faces as well. Online community presence for this flickering phenomenon is growing steadily and it wouldn't have been possible if not from each of the individual's collective efforts. Thank you for some of the DMs and reference of me from time to time. It is really appreciated and I genuinely am.

This will be quite a long post as I have quite a few things to update.

Researchers specialized on this flickering phenomenon is on track. Firstly, to inform that current flickering measurement standards do not represent the real world. Secondary, to demonstrate that those with migraine/ heightened sensitivity are much more subsceptive to flickering. Thirdly, to propose a new measuring flickering standard to the industry.

For those that wish to have a glimpse to this new standard, called PAVM(
PHANTOM ARRAY VISIBILITY MEASURE), here are the links below.

SVM showed poor correlation to actual participants scores
https://www.lee.org/flicker/wp-cont...23-lightinghumanfactorsflicker-pnnl-royer.pdf

An early first look into PAVM (table 3, page 9 shows results)
https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2024-05/ssl-tan-etal-2024-lrt_tlm.pdf

PAVM was designed to include those higher sensitivity to flickering.

A PAVM of score 0 indicates no flicker, while 0.5 would be safe for the the average people, regardless of their task activity (I may be wrong on the exact figure)

Hopefully in future, screen manufacturers can use this regulated guideline as reference for producing eyestrain free screen. I believe companies themselves have a make a stricter guideline for screens, for users are staring directly into a light source.

Now I bring the not-so-good news.

The future of the iPhones series appears to be bleak. Should reports of 2025's all iPhone 17 move to LTPO panels were true, then those that had success with the plus/ regular models today would be pushed out of the Apple ecosystem.

The reason is because — at present, the regular models are running LTPS OLED panels, while the pro models are LTPO. LTPS OLED has been in the market longer than LTPO, and allows modification to mitigate flicker.

LTPO panels in contrast were designed to flicker from the beginning.

Tandem OLED, or think of it as LTPO 2.0, was introduced to address this ~ by staking 2 lower powered LTPO OLED. It does not seem to be of help much. Some even claimed the experience was worse than a typical OLED.

As of now, little progress can be made to LTPO in regards to eyestrain. While some smartphones manufacturers have made claims of achieving higher hertz on LTPO panels, they were false as they were simply slotting in more black frame (complete screen ON and OFF) into low frequency LTPO to pass off as higher hertz.

Oneplus did claimed that their next flagship OP13 will be using BOE's new X2 ltpo panel and would have an increased emphasize on eyestrain. However, I wouldn't keep my hopes high. As it does not seem realistic to produce a LTPO panel without its flaws in such a short time. Doing so would have to have redesigned LTPO from the ground up.

Can we call a leopard a leopard if it does not have any spots? This is something good to think about.

Additionally, because LTPO can can run at a low 1 hertz, rendered text may look fuzzy or jumpy — especially to those that were more sensitive. While it is possible to program LTPO panel to run at a targetted 120 hertz etc, LTPO were designed to run at 1 hertz before overclocking itself to 120 hertz etc, according to system needs. A system may still report a fixed 120 hertz despite the screen occasional slip to 1 hertz.

This occasion suddden slip disrupts a sensitive user's vestibular system. Hence causing symptoms of dizziness and poor balance etc. 1 hertz would not have mattered much to LCD panels since text on LCD panels are stable as long as a user not interact with it. OLED however, are constantly refreshing per second, regardless of user interaction.

The Chinese online community are actively bringing up on this LTPO panel concern. Their voice were heard and thus phones like Honor 200 and Xiaomi 14T pro continue with LTPS OLED panels. Phones like the Honor Magic series used LTPO mainly to target the western market.

For some iphone users, following the complete transition to LTPO, the last usable OLED iphone may be the iphone 16/iphone 16 plus.

We are seeing a return of 2020, following the complete transition to OLED. The last usable iPhone was 11, followed iPhone se(2022). In the near future, The last remaining usable iPhone would be the 16/16plus, followed by iPhone se(2025).

It appears that Apple's vision today is spearing toward the forefront of technology specifications. Their priorities have changed. In the past, their philosophy was to design and make products that would work seamlessly for human. At present today, it is looking more like us humans work for products.

I expect this flickering phenomenon for the iphones to persist for the next decade. (If I'm being extremely optimistic, probably half a decade). Only then, will I return to the Apple ecosystem. For I do not see myself obliged to put up with the side effects such as headaches, dry eyes, blurred vision and worst of all — cognitive impairment.
It is great to hear from you! I am glad to see you posting again and providing this very clear explanation of the current state of PWM/TLM in the phone display industry. Please continue to stay active here and on PWM_Sensitive on Reddit. We need more experts like you focused on these kinds of issues. Thank you so much for your continued efforts!
 

Thebertozz

macrumors newbie
Dec 3, 2012
18
15
Hi guys. It has been a while and I am glad to see the community is as active and lively as ever. It is great to see some of the familiar faces as well. Online community presence for this flickering phenomenon is growing steadily and it wouldn't have been possible if not from each of the individual's collective efforts. Thank you for some of the DMs and reference of me from time to time. It is really appreciated and I genuinely am.

This will be quite a long post as I have quite a few things to update.

Researchers specialized on this flickering phenomenon is on track. Firstly, to inform that current flickering measurement standards do not represent the real world. Secondary, to demonstrate that those with migraine/ heightened sensitivity are much more subsceptive to flickering. Thirdly, to propose a new measuring flickering standard to the industry.

For those that wish to have a glimpse to this new standard, called PAVM(
PHANTOM ARRAY VISIBILITY MEASURE), here are the links below.

SVM showed poor correlation to actual participants scores
https://www.lee.org/flicker/wp-cont...23-lightinghumanfactorsflicker-pnnl-royer.pdf

An early first look into PAVM (table 3, page 9 shows results)
https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2024-05/ssl-tan-etal-2024-lrt_tlm.pdf

PAVM was designed to include those higher sensitivity to flickering.

A PAVM of score 0 indicates no flicker, while 0.5 would be safe for the the average people, regardless of their task activity (I may be wrong on the exact figure)

Hopefully in future, screen manufacturers can use this regulated guideline as reference for producing eyestrain free screen. I believe companies themselves have a make a stricter guideline for screens, for users are staring directly into a light source.

Now I bring the not-so-good news.

The future of the iPhones series appears to be bleak. Should reports of 2025's all iPhone 17 move to LTPO panels were true, then those that had success with the plus/ regular models today would be pushed out of the Apple ecosystem.

The reason is because — at present, the regular models are running LTPS OLED panels, while the pro models are LTPO. LTPS OLED has been in the market longer than LTPO, and allows modification to mitigate flicker.

LTPO panels in contrast were designed to flicker from the beginning.

Tandem OLED, or think of it as LTPO 2.0, was introduced to address this ~ by staking 2 lower powered LTPO OLED. It does not seem to be of help much. Some even claimed the experience was worse than a typical OLED.

As of now, little progress can be made to LTPO in regards to eyestrain. While some smartphones manufacturers have made claims of achieving higher hertz on LTPO panels, they were false as they were simply slotting in more black frame (complete screen ON and OFF) into low frequency LTPO to pass off as higher hertz.

Oneplus did claimed that their next flagship OP13 will be using BOE's new X2 ltpo panel and would have an increased emphasize on eyestrain. However, I wouldn't keep my hopes high. As it does not seem realistic to produce a LTPO panel without its flaws in such a short time. Doing so would have to have redesigned LTPO from the ground up.

Can we call a leopard a leopard if it does not have any spots? This is something good to think about.

Additionally, because LTPO can can run at a low 1 hertz, rendered text may look fuzzy or jumpy — especially to those that were more sensitive. While it is possible to program LTPO panel to run at a targetted 120 hertz etc, LTPO were designed to run at 1 hertz before overclocking itself to 120 hertz etc, according to system needs. A system may still report a fixed 120 hertz despite the screen occasional slip to 1 hertz.

This occasion suddden slip disrupts a sensitive user's vestibular system. Hence causing symptoms of dizziness and poor balance etc. 1 hertz would not have mattered much to LCD panels since text on LCD panels are stable as long as a user not interact with it. OLED however, are constantly refreshing per second, regardless of user interaction.

The Chinese online community are actively bringing up on this LTPO panel concern. Their voice were heard and thus phones like Honor 200 and Xiaomi 14T pro continue with LTPS OLED panels. Phones like the Honor Magic series used LTPO mainly to target the western market.

For some iphone users, following the complete transition to LTPO, the last usable OLED iphone may be the iphone 16/iphone 16 plus.

We are seeing a return of 2020, following the complete transition to OLED. The last usable iPhone was 11, followed iPhone se(2022). In the near future, The last remaining usable iPhone would be the 16/16plus, followed by iPhone se(2025).

It appears that Apple's vision today is spearing toward the forefront of technology specifications. Their priorities have changed. In the past, their philosophy was to design and make products that would work seamlessly for human. At present today, it is looking more like us humans work for products.

I expect this flickering phenomenon for the iphones to persist for the next decade. (If I'm being extremely optimistic, probably half a decade). Only then, will I return to the Apple ecosystem. For I do not see myself obliged to put up with the side effects such as headaches, dry eyes, blurred vision and worst of all — cognitive impairment.
Very very interesting, thanks! Is it already clear why iPhone 16 is better than previous standard models for some? Does the brightness modulation in % differ from the 13/14/15?

From what I understand from the iPhone 13 onwards they use 480 hz PWM, but still those models were not suitable for sensitive people (for example, my wife has the 13 and I cannot use it for more than 10 minutes before having some kind of pain in the eyes). I also discovered that all this annoyance for me comes from an inflammation of my right ear vestibulus, so I have hope I can recover.
 
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