Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[Tijdelijk]

Last year with the X in September and October I was very dizzy during those months.
I switched to the 8 plus and the dizziness went away.

Sometimes I couldn't believe this was caused by the PWM in the oled screen.
I mean extreme dizziness due to a phone screen.......

Well I bought the XS Max and yesterday the extreme dizziness started again.
How can this be possible???

Eyestrain I can understand but extreme dizziness.
Could it really be the Oled screen..........

 

[5105973]

Last year with the X in September and October I was very dizzy during those months.
I switched to the 8 plus and the dizziness went away.

Sometimes I couldn't believe this was caused by the PWM in the oled screen.
I mean extreme dizziness due to a phone screen.......

Well I bought the XS Max and yesterday the extreme dizziness started again.
How can this be possible???

Eyestrain I can understand but extreme dizziness.
Could it really be the Oled screen..........

Well it probably is the OLED, but have you ruled out seasonal allergies or other things that are easy to overlook? Like a seasonal change of activities that may mean you’re not hydrating properly? It was an interesting year of my life sifting through everything that could have triggered my atypical migraine symptoms back when we knew so little about them.

Extreme dizziness can be evidence of an atypical migraine. My daughter can get so dizzy she falls over just looking at certain textures and patterns. Those things trigger something in her brain and dizziness is one of the manifestations of the electrical storm inside her brain.

 

[tonybarnaby]

Last year with the X in September and October I was very dizzy during those months.
I switched to the 8 plus and the dizziness went away.

Sometimes I couldn't believe this was caused by the PWM in the oled screen.
I mean extreme dizziness due to a phone screen.......

Well I bought the XS Max and yesterday the extreme dizziness started again.
How can this be possible???

Eyestrain I can understand but extreme dizziness.
Could it really be the Oled screen..........

It’s not the OLED screen so much as it is apples PWM implementation. Plenty of us who suffer from pwm on our iPhones have been fine on numerous android phones with OLED screens. Sad, really.

 

[brig2221]

I put a few replies in this thread already noting I got the XS this past Friday and immediately could tell I was getting dizzy with extreme sinus type of headache pain. I took it back this past Monday, and am now waiting for the XR pre-order.

All that said, does anyone know the best contact path to pass my experience and comments over to Apple? Yes, I know they are a trillion dollar company and may not care. I will be locked out of Apple's flagship devices going forward unless something changes on their end, so I definitely want to make the effort to reach out to them, but also want to make sure I am using the right channel and not just talking into a large giant void where the feedback doesn't go anywhere.

 

[GlenK]

^^Here is the best way to give apple feedback:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html

 

[Samut]

I got Iphone XS on Friday and watching the screen felt uncomfortable in a way it is difficult to explain. Since then my eyes have felt strained and I had some headache.

After finding this topic I read more about PWM which helped me to realize why I have had troubles on focusing on the screen of my new laptop which according to notebookcheck.com uses PWM as opposed to my old one. Luckily I most often use monitor with it.

Coming back to this topic on Iphone Xs and X I noticed that on PWM measurements of Iphone X at notebookcheck.com they mention that in addition to having PWM at frequency of 240 Apples panel also has flickering at 60 hz. Could this be the reason why some users report discomfort on Apples Iphone X and Xs but with not with other OLED devices? Could someone contact them to see if there are other differences to OLED panels in general?

”In addition to the 240 Hz PWM, we can also measure a slight flickering at 60 Hz (see screenshots below) at higher brightness levels” -Iphone X review at notebookcheck.com
​

I have decided to see whether eye strain and headache will ease by minimizing use of the phone for a couple of days. I really love the Iphone Xs and the smaller size and great dual cameras are important factors for me. Therefore going to Iphone Xr would not be preferable option and I would hope that I can stick with Iphone Xs. Other brands are also out of the question since I do really love Apples ecosystem and IOS.

 

[Tijdelijk]

I got Iphone XS on Friday and watching the screen felt uncomfortable in a way it is difficult to explain. Since then my eyes have felt strained and I had some headache.

After finding this topic I read more about PWM which helped me to realize why I have had troubles on focusing on the screen of my new laptop which according to notebookcheck.com uses PWM as opposed to my old one. Luckily I most often use monitor with it.

Coming back to this topic on Iphone Xs and X I noticed that on PWM measurements of Iphone X at notebookcheck.com they mention that in addition to having PWM at frequency of 240 Apples panel also has flickering at 60 hz. Could this be the reason why some users report discomfort on Apples Iphone X and Xs but with not with other OLED devices? Could someone contact them to see if there are other differences to OLED panels in general?

”In addition to the 240 Hz PWM, we can also measure a slight flickering at 60 Hz (see screenshots below) at higher brightness levels” -Iphone X review at notebookcheck.com
​

I have decided to see whether eye strain and headache will ease by minimizing use of the phone for a couple of days. I really love the Iphone Xs and the smaller size and great dual cameras are important factors for me. Therefore going to Iphone Xr would not be preferable option and I would hope that I can stick with Iphone Xs. Other brands are also out of the question since I do really love Apples ecosystem and IOS.

Same here.
If the dizziness stays I have to go back to the 8 plus or the XR.

I wish it wasn't necessary because I love the XS Max.

 

[dazz87]

This is a apple issue not an OLED issue.

 

[5105973]

^^Here is the best way to give apple feedback:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html

Be sure to link back to this thread, too. I would love to know why I can look at my particular Max pretty well but not the one my husband has.

What about my iPhone is different? If they could make more like mine then maybe they’d have fewer customers suffering. Of course we are all different and seem to have different tolerances so maybe my phone wouldn’t work for the rest of you with pwm sensitivity.

As it is, even with my Max things aren’t as ideal as I would like. I still can’t comfortably read my Kindle App in dark mode. The letters jitter a bit. I can’t see the flicker, but I can’t focus on the letters the way I can on my 8 Plus display.

I’m okay reading and entering text on this forum.
[doublepost=1537977488][/doublepost]

This is a apple issue not an OLED issue.

Well it occurs on Pixel 2 displays, too, as well as on monitors that are not tuned to be “flicker free” but yeah, given that this is an Apple forum and a growing number of people are discovering they can’t enjoy the new generation of premium iPhones, Apple does have an issue.

 

[sorgo †]

My XS is on its way back − simply could not deal with the terrible eye strain (which I can only assume is an effect of the pulse-width modulating OLED display, as outlined by the many anecdotes in this thread) after less than an hour altogether of using it. Indeed a shame because otherwise the device is lovely.

I'm holding onto my trusty iPhone 8 Plus for now but I'll probably preorder the XR as I'm (perhaps incorrectly) assuming that its LCD display won't be similarly straining/irritating. If my assumption is incorrect I'll just return it like I have my XS.

 

[kerplunknet]

Apple support called me back. The tier 2 representative I spoke with said an engineer responded and said:

"Apple does not publish that information."

He said the only information he can give is the following, but that it certainly does not have the information I was asking about: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP770?locale=en_US

Not surprising to me that Apple would want to keep their use of PWM as secret as possible.

 

[sorgo †]

Apple support called me back. The tier 2 representative I spoke with said an engineer responded and said:

"Apple does not publish that information."

He said the only information he can give is the following, but that it certainly does not have the information I was asking about: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP770?locale=en_US

Not surprising to me that Apple would want to keep their use of PWM as secret as possible.

I suppose that isn't really surprising but still…not exactly encouraging. Again I'm really holding out hope that the XR won't exhibit this behavior.

On another note I forgot to mention in my post above that there was also, somehow, considerable and apparent burn-in in my XS display − I could tell particularly on the grayish "Private Browsing" page in Safari. There was a very noticeable dark streak of pixels down the center-right of the display and even if I had had transparency effects enabled (which I didn't and basically never do) that streak wouldn't have corresponded at all with my home-screen wallpaper. Rather disenchanting since again I had only lightly used the device (for less than an hour overall) in a dark room with the screen brightness at its minimum.

 

[840quadra]

This is a apple issue not an OLED issue.

Since they don't actually make the display tech, and others have similar (or lower) frequencies, it appears that it isn't just an Apple issue.

Galaxy Note 9
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Take-...esign-and-could-cause-eyestrain.325712.0.html

In the case of the Galaxy Note 9, we are able to record a low flickering frequency of 227 Hz when the brightness setting is not at maximum. Most users are not sensitive to onscreen flickering and will not have to worry, but users who are sensitive to the phenomenon should take caution as low flickering frequencies tend to be more impactful.

Pixel 2 XL
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Google-Pixel-2-XL-Smartphone-Review.257588.0.html

The display backlight flickers at 242.7 Hz (Likely utilizing PWM) .

The frequency of 242.7 Hz is relatively low, so sensitive users will likely notice flickering and experience eyestrain at the stated brightness setting and below.

In comparison: 53 % of all tested devices do not use PWM to dim the display. If PWM was detected, an average of 8847 (minimum: 43 - maximum: 142900) Hz was measured.

iPhone X
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-iPhone-X-Smartphone-Review.264436.0.html

The display backlight flickers at 240 Hz (Likely utilizing PWM) Flickering detected at a brightness setting of 100 % and below. There should be no flickering or PWM above this brightness setting.

The frequency of 240 Hz is relatively low, so sensitive users will likely notice flickering and experience eyestrain at the stated brightness setting and below.

In comparison: 53 % of all tested devices do not use PWM to dim the display. If PWM was detected, an average of 8847 (minimum: 43 - maximum: 142900) Hz was measured.

Apple support called me back. The tier 2 representative I spoke with said an engineer responded and said:

"Apple does not publish that information."

He said the only information he can give is the following, but that it certainly does not have the information I was asking about: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP770?locale=en_US

Not surprising to me that Apple would want to keep their use of PWM as secret as possible.

I think it is less conspiracy and more of an attitude of We are Apple, we don't share full details.

It's rare for Apple to publish detailed tech specs outside of what is required by the FCC and other regulatory bodies. We still don't see details on iPhone RAM, processor bus speed, or even core speed on their iOS devices or iPods before it, so I am not sure why we would see PWM, draw rate, and other screen details from them.

 

[Maven1975]

Explain how your eyes are sensitive to Macbook Pro's PWM. Well I heard of someone who had 3Khz PWM on his 2015 13" Macbook Pro (tested with oscilloscope) but that must have been an outlier.

Eye strain for me feels like this:

1. Makes eyes feel heavy and tired

2. Eyes become sore causing my eyes to dart in confusion. (Im sure it's a subconscious message sent from the eyes to the brain) Almost feels like an eye anxiety attack.

3. Migraines from pushing forward with screen work (Not work load) causing mental fatigue.

There is a significant difference between using a display with and with out PWM. (For me)

2018 MBP's have PWM when brightness is under 75%. So, I ether have a bright screen in the dark to avoid PWM, or use the MBP as intended with brightness down and take longer than average breaks.

I did have Lasik surgery on my eyes years back. Additionally, my eyes are extremely sensitive to LED lighting. Example, when looking at rear LED taillights (Worst are newer Dodge, Cadillac, Jeep's) in the dark, if I move my heads side to side, I see trails of light.

So... It's not a blast on Apple, it's just something I wish they would address. (For me)

I also don't care for the glass on Apples displays. At least they laminate the display to the glass to avoid air gaps. However, I would rather have an anti-glare or glossy display without glass. (Again... For me)

 

[TDDM]

Apple support called me back. The tier 2 representative I spoke with said an engineer responded and said:

"Apple does not publish that information."

He said the only information he can give is the following, but that it certainly does not have the information I was asking about: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP770?locale=en_US

Not surprising to me that Apple would want to keep their use of PWM as secret as possible.

Huh, that's really disappointing. It also makes me question whether the person I spoke to knows for sure that the XR doesn't use PWM. She seemed very confident, but if it's company policy to not share those details, it makes me a little concerned about her answer.

I can't imagine why sharing whether or not the device uses PWM is a bad thing in Apple's eyes, it's not like we're going to ignore the issue and just live with the strain.

Oh well. Like I said earlier, if the XR uses the same screen tech as the G7, then we're looking at 1100+ Hz and no PWM above 42% brightness. Definitely not ideal, but hopefully turns out much better than the XS implementation.

 

[840quadra]

Not accusing anyone of doing anything nefarious, however I am wondering (as others have also posted) if people are having eye strain due to other reasons outside of PWM. In the last year I have personally noticed quite a bit of headaches when using computers for long periods of time, and had just recently started using .5 magnification blue blocking computer glasses.

Since we (as humans) tend to spend a lot more time with new phones as compared to outgoing models, we may not realize how long we are staring at a screen that is relatively close to our face as opposed to computers or other devices we may be using during the day that are further away.

I had thought my X was causing PWM related issues last year, but after I purchased my first set of computer glasses, my issue went away. Decent computer glasses can be had on Amazon for less than $20 and may be worth testing. I see close objects just fine (without help) now, but the less I stress my eyes (according to my doctor) the longer (and older) I will be able to continue viewing small print without assistance.

YMMV but may be worth a talk to your eye doctor, and trying out a pair that is suited for you!

 

[TDDM]

Since we (as humans) tend to spend a lot more time with new phones as compared to outgoing models, we may not realize how long we are staring at a screen that is relatively close to our face as opposed to computers or other devices we may be using during the day.

That's a good point, I'm agree that some of the people here are probably having issues for other reasons besides PWM. However, a lot of us have been dealing with this issue since the X launched last year, and have pretty much ruled out anything beyond PWM causing our issues.

For example, I had an iPhone 7+ & used my desktop Mac extensively for work before I got my X, and had zero eye strain issues before that. Within like 2-3 days of using the X, I noticed the symptoms that were consistent with PWM sensitivity, and it all fit. I tried glasses, messing with ALL of the brightness settings, etc. No dice.

Same goes for this year: I was using my phone and computer regularly with no issues, and then immediately had the same symptoms when I switched to the XS. I've been switching between the XS and my old phone daily, and I can easily notice when I'm dealing with PWM.

I had thought my X was causing PWM related issues last year, but after I purchased my first set of computer glasses, my issue went away.

Glad you were able to solve your issue

I think the best way of telling if you have PWM sensitivity RE: iPhones would be to notice which symptoms you're getting from the XS, and then see if they're still happening if you switch to a non-PWM device.

 

[840quadra]

Glad you were able to solve your issue

I think the best way of telling if you have PWM sensitivity RE: iPhones would be to notice which symptoms you're getting from the XS, and then see if they're still happening if you switch to a non-PWM device.

Funny thing is, I did switch back to my 7 for a week and noticed a little improvement, though, I doubt I was using the phone as much as it wasn't as new and shiny.

I agree, YMMV and I know people are sensitive to PWM (My mom is for instance), but it may not hurt to invest in a relatively cheap set of glasses that may (with your doctors opinion attached) help with the overall longevity of your closeup vision outside of PWM issues.

 

[sorgo †]

YMMV but may be worth a talk to your eye doctor, and trying out a pair that is suited for you!

Lol…. Sorry, but I shouldn't have to see an optician and/or separately purchase/wear a pair of "computer glasses" in order to tolerate using my new $1,000+ phone. Glad you could find something to mitigate the issue for you, though.

 

[tonybarnaby]

If we're lucky, Apple will update the XR next year (or the year after) with a 401ppi screen. Then it'll be smooth sailing from then on out.

I’ll take that.
[doublepost=1538007309][/doublepost]

This is a apple issue not an OLED issue.

100%. It is completely down to how they handle pwm.
[doublepost=1538007436][/doublepost]I returned my max Monday at 2pm. It’s now Wednesday at 7pm and my headache is nearly gone. Still lingering a tiny bit, but the squeezing feeling on my head is gone. Too bad that the max doesn’t work for us in this thread. The speed and screen of the 8 plus is fine for me in terms of resolution, I just REALLY miss the extra content the max provided. The xr is a decent substitute, but it is no max.

 

[stafil]

Is it possible that the eye-strain/headaches are from the FaceID/IR and not from the OLED?

 

[840quadra]

Lol…. Sorry, but I shouldn't have to see an optician and/or separately purchase/wear a pair of "computer glasses" in order to tolerate using my new $1,000+ phone. Glad you could find something to mitigate the issue for you, though.

What does the price of a phone have to do with eye strain caused by something else?

Being a web “me too” hypochondriac solves nothing for people. Take it or leave it, my post is only intended to shed light that there may be other things going on for some people.

PWM is a definite issue for some, but try not to be too stubborn to consider other causes for discomfort , or eye strain.

 

[5105973]

Is it possible that the eye-strain/headaches are from the FaceID/IR and not from the OLED?

When I play around with the Animoji my eyes can feel a bit odd and “gritty”. But I’ve had the eye strain on my last X even with Face ID turned off. Normal Face ID works so fast I don’t think it gets much chance to hurt the eyes.

I’m sadly wondering if I need to return this phone now but not due to pwm. I think the modem isn’t very good. I was at school picking up the kids and I could not get reliable signal so my texts to my husband were lagging. That has never happened there before. Sigh. So I’m off to check that thread.

This is otherwise my favorite iPhone since iPhone 4 and 8 Plus, so I hope everything that’s wonky between me and it has a software fix coming. I can live with the display on this one, but will supplement with my 8 Plus for things like ebook reading. However, I can’t live with subpar modem functionality.

 

[tonybarnaby]

What does the price of a phone have to do with eye strain caused by something else?

Being a web “me too” hypochondriac solves nothing for people. Take it or leave it, my post is only intended to shed light that there may be other things going on for some people.

PWM is a definite issue for some, but try not to be too stubborn to consider other causes for discomfort , or eye strain.

Im a heavy user. I experienced a tension headache within 5 minutes of opening my max. Thats not an over use issue. Ive had nearly every galaxy s phone, plus a oneplus 3 and 2 motorola z play. All of them are oled and have pwm, yet none of them gave me any issues. It's 100% how apple implements their pwm, not just because its oled. Samsung must implement it differently on their galaxy s and note line. Grumpy mom has a pixel (samsung display) and experiences the pwm issues on it.

From my limited reading, the best oled screen for pwm suffering people is the lg v30. I Will be ordering one on swappa this weekend, and will reply here with my findings.

 

[840quadra]

Im a heavy user. I experienced a tension headache within 5 minutes of opening my max. Thats not an over use issue. Ive had nearly every galaxy s phone, plus a oneplus 3 and 2 motorola z play. All of them are oled and have pwm, yet none of them gave me any issues. It's 100% how apple implements their pwm, not just because its oled. Samsung must implement it differently on their galaxy s and note line. Grumpy mom has a pixel (samsung display) and experiences the pwm issues on it.

From my limited reading, the best oled screen for pwm suffering people is the lg v30. I Will be ordering one on swappa this weekend, and will reply here with my findings.

Fair enough. And again, I am not disputing that there is a problem with Apples devices, or that PWM impacts some (or many) people.

Would be interesting to see a detailed breakdown of the different PWM or display scheme among the Samsung panels out there by a scientific firm such as Displaymate or similar. I have been reading about PWM since my first Nexus phone and don't dispute that it impacts some people. I am curious if the PWM effect some automakers use on their LED marker and taillights also impact effected people.

FWIW, Grumpy Mom and I both have a Pixel 2, and have shared both praise and gripes about that device in the Alternatives area for about a year now.

Overall, it sucks that this is an issue for so many, and I do hope Apple looks into a resolution since they are so invested in health, and accessibility.