iPhone X FaceID and eye safety

[stafil]

Not quite sure what my "mistake" is. I've made it pretty clear my background is in Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths (STEM), where ideas, reasoning and thoughts are either correct, or incorrect. I'm not saying I'm always right, but FaceID is either safe to use, or it's not. Views and opinions are relevant in Arts and Politics, but not in Science and Engineering problems, like this. The exchange of ideas, reasoning and thoughts in an Engineering-based situation is meaningless if it does not eventually result in one side or the other being convinced, and eventual consensus.

So basically, what I'm saying is your admission that you cannot be convinced is an admission that this entire thread is, and has always been, pointless.

What you said is true only in maths pretty much(and some topics in philosophy).

Ideas and thought are eventually proven correct or incorrect in Science. They are not correct just in themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Even more so in Biology and Medicine.

Yes, FaceID is either safe or not. You, or me, are in no position to determine that. We don't even know the exact specs.

I am sorry that your only quest here is to try to change other people's mind or maybe satisfy your ego. I thought you were better than that.

 

[C DM]

Yes, FaceID is either safe or not. You, or me, are in no position to determine that.

But that doesn't appear to be how the OP and various subsequent posts are presented.
[doublepost=1540880422][/doublepost]

I am sorry that your only quest here is to try to change other people's mind or maybe satisfy your ego. I thought you were better than that.

Similarly it doesn't quite appear to be how the OP and various subsequent posts come off.

 

[stafil]

But that doesn't appear to be how the OP and various subsequent posts are presented.
[doublepost=1540880422][/doublepost]
Similarly it doesn't quite appear to be how the OP and various subsequent posts come off.

Ugh. I am the OP. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I just state my opinion, reasoning, experiments and research.

I am probably guilty of hyperbole or heated discussion at some point but in no way I am convinced 100% about either positions. Still skeptical.

In all honestly if I could prove that FaceID is causing long term health issues I wouldn’t be here chatting with you. I would laugh my way to the lawyers..

 

[jeremiah256]

But don't get it to personally, I will not believe (almost) anyone until I see the official specs form Apple, or find very very expensive equipment and measure things myself.

If you're looking for Apple to provide detailed specs, they rarely do on anything unless they have to. They don't even like to list the RAM in their phones.

What they do provide, in this case, is a document in your iPhone box that states the phone contains a Class 1 laser that meets international standards and testing. From there, you can easily investigate multiple professional sites that will also indicate the level of safety associated with a Class 1 laser.

Here is the Wikipedia entry, but other sites will confirm that there is no danger from a Class 1 laser unless you go out of your way to modify it.

 

[stafil]

If you're looking for Apple to provide detailed specs, they rarely do on anything unless they have to. They don't even like to list the RAM in their phones.

What they do provide, in this case, is a document in your iPhone box that states the phone contains a Class 1 laser that meets international standards and testing. From there, you can easily investigate multiple professional sites that will also indicate the level of safety associated with a Class 1 laser.

Here is the Wikipedia entry, but other sites will confirm that there is no danger from a Class 1 laser unless you go out of your way to modify it.

I have no doubt that Class 1 laser is safe

 

[C DM]

Ugh. I am the OP. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I just state my opinion, reasoning, experiments and research.

I am probably guilty of hyperbole or heated discussion at some point but in no way I am convinced 100% about either positions. Still skeptical.

In all honestly if I could prove that FaceID is causing long term health issues I wouldn’t be here chatting with you. I would laugh my way to the lawyers..

Yes, I know you are the OP (OP also isn't just the original poster, it's also the original post, as in the one that starts the thread and what it's about).

 

[dazz87]

No idea what that crap will do to your eyes. Sticking with touch id.

 

[serialiphoneuser]

For the community, can you provide a recording of what it looks like when you try to unlock the iPhone with a passcode only, on the lock screen?

With face id off, require attention for face id off, attention aware features off, true tone off, auto brightness off?

When recorded with the iPhone 6 front cam + airplay mirroring, there's constant visible pulsing (about as bright as the display), that does not occur or is very faint in previous versions of iPhone without Face-ID. This is certainly a cause of alarm (in my case)

 

[stafil]

For the community, can you provide a recording of what it looks like when you try to unlock the iPhone with a passcode only, on the lock screen?

With face id off, require attention for face id off, attention aware features off, true tone off, auto brightness off?

When recorded with the iPhone 6 front cam + airplay mirroring, there's constant visible pulsing (about as bright as the display), that does not occur or is very faint in previous versions of iPhone without Face-ID. This is certainly a cause of alarm (in my case)

 

[serialiphoneuser]

That's unacceptable. I wonder why iOS is so aggressively using the Flood illuminator even with everything's turned off. Without Touch-ID, and constant blaring of IR (when you try to unlock).. it may not be worth the nuisance.

 

[C DM]

That's unacceptable. I wonder why iOS is so aggressively using the Flood illuminator even with everything's turned off. Without Touch-ID, and constant blaring of IR (when you try to unlock).. it may not be worth the nuisance.

Perhaps it's the proximity sensor?

 

[BorderingOn]

As you can see the environment is dark and the iPhone's brightness is set to minimum.

Now picture this. It's night, lights are out and you have your iPhone at bed watching Netflix. The auto-brightness has adjusted the brightness of the screen to the minimum level and your eye's pupil is dilated. Then every 5 seconds the iPhone blast an intense (but invisible) light straight into your retina.

Is that really healty?

Would you have your phone in FULL BRIGHTNESS in such an environment? Wouldn't it hurt your eyes if you did?

All infrared, visible or ultraviolet electromagnetic radiation can cause injury to the eye in sufficient concentrations, but this is very rare. The infrared light needs to be extremely intense to cause harm. It is important to take precautions, because infrared light is invisible, meaning your eyes won't take the protective measures like blinking or closing when a high-intensity beam of infrared radiation shines into them. In extreme cases, if the eyes absorb too much infrared light, they can be irreversibly damaged. Infrared lamps and incandescent bulbs are not powerful enough to cause such harm. But it's best if you don't stare directly at them for too long. Staring at any light source, including the sun, for too long can cause damage to the eyes, particularly in young people.

https://sciencing.com/infrared-light-effect-eyes-6142267.html

 

[stafil]

Perhaps it's the proximity sensor?

Yeah, I don’t think my cheap IR camera is good enough to be able to say with certainty if it’s the flood illuminator or the proximity sensor.

 

[stafil]

I am going to leave this here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/01/health/cellphone-radiation-cancer.html

Again, I am NOT asserting that FaceID emits radiation that will kill you, or even damage your eyes in the long run.

What I am saying is that biology is not a completely solved puzzle. After 20 years of mobile phones researchers are still not 100% if cellphone radiation can cause health problems.

FaceID is a new technology and it's probably the first time ever that we have a LED flashing (intense?) IR light continuously straight into our eyes, day and night. The fact that there is a thread where a lot of people complain about sore eyes from it, means it's good to ask questions.

And again, it doesn't have to be the radiation, there may be other ways that flood illuminator or dot-project is interacting with our eyes, that we have never bothered to look into before because it's the first time of this technology being mass adopted. I am not saying it does. But that you can never be sure it doesn't unless you do a study on it.

 

[C DM]

The fact that there is a thread where a lot of people complain about sore eyes from it, means it's good to ask questions.

Are the complaints actually associated with it?

 

[stafil]

Are the complaints actually associated with it?

A number of them said that turning off FaceID made their symptoms go away. Others said it was the PWM.

 

[Glideslope]

“Ming The Thing” just reported the 2019 Face ID Illuminater will use a stronger IR flood. No thanks.

 

[now i see it]

The iPhone 8 series will be available new for another year, then available on the used market for a couple years after. Let's all hope that Face ID gets replaced with something less intrusive in the next few years. Until then, it's back to pass codes and black stickers over the dot projector and flood illuminator.

 

[stafil]

I challenge anyone who I brave enough go in a dark room, tap on “setup FaceID” and at the point that asks you to move your face around, bring the flood illuminator 1 inch away from on of their eyes and leave it till “FaceID setup” fails. Repeat 3 times.

I bet your eye will start feeling weird and start hurting within 24hours.

 

[NJHitmen]

But that you can never be sure it doesn't unless you do a study on it.

I'd be shocked if FaceID actually causes eye problems, but even so, I very much agree with your conclusion here. It makes no sense to me at all that such an apparently minuscule bit of IR light could damage one's eyes, but I can't say that with absolute certainty - nor with any authority (just because it makes no sense to me doesn't/shouldn't mean anything to you). As is clear from this thread, there are always going to be questions re: FaceID's safety until someone publishes a formal study.

Or, until Apple actually releases specifications describing the magnitude of IR produced (which will probably never happen).

 

[sddabrow]

I challenge anyone who I brave enough go in a dark room, tap on “setup FaceID” and at the point that asks you to move your face around, bring the flood illuminator 1 inch away from on of their eyes and leave it till “FaceID setup” fails. Repeat 3 times.

I bet your eye will start feeling weird and start hurting within 24hours.

Did you prove that the flood Illuminator and Dot projector are still on, even if FACEID is turned off?

Got my iPhoneXR yesterday and already noticing some soreness behind the eyes. Will tape off if necessary.

 

[serialiphoneuser]

The iPhone 8 series will be available new for another year, then available on the used market for a couple years after. Let's all hope that Face ID gets replaced with something less intrusive in the next few years. Until then, it's back to pass codes and black stickers over the dot projector and flood illuminator.

The Flood Illuminator works 100% even with an opaque matte black tape over it.

 

[C DM]

I challenge anyone who I brave enough go in a dark room, tap on “setup FaceID” and at the point that asks you to move your face around, bring the flood illuminator 1 inch away from on of their eyes and leave it till “FaceID setup” fails. Repeat 3 times.

I bet your eye will start feeling weird and start hurting within 24hours.

What will that demonstrate? What sort of "weirdness" would qualify? Could anything/everything else be ruled out as being behind that "weirdness" if one experiences it? Would not experiencing "weirdness" demonstrate something? Also, why does it have to involve a dark room?

 

[stafil]

What will that demonstrate?

That it’s not only me or a few of us that have the problem. I.e. not placebo.

What sort of "weirdness" would qualify?

Anything other than nothing. Don’t want to say so I don’t influence anyone.

Could anything/everything else be ruled out as being behind that "weirdness" if one experiences it?

Well at that point I think so. It would have to be something from the phone, and more specifically the FaceID, no?

Would not experiencing "weirdness" demonstrate something?

No “weirdness” and no pain => That the few of us that feel something are indeed crazy

Also, why does it have to involve a dark room?

So the eye’s pupil is dilated.

 

[C DM]

Well at that point I think so. It would have to be something from the phone, and more specifically the FaceID, no?

I'm not sure anything else could really be ruled out over a period of a day to say that it couldn't be something else that might be in play. Furthermore a single test like that won't really say much one way or another. As far as sort of an anecdotal comparison perhaps, but nothing really beyond that as far as establishing what the "weirdness" really might be and what might really be behind it.