Fortnite to Return to iOS in Europe Following App Store Changes

[cylack]

This Tim Sweeney guy is so annoying, wanting to free ride off Apple’s iphone. Was he around in 2007 to pay for R&D for the iphone ecosystem when there was no promise of success? Apple built up the iphone ecosystem with years of investment and no one is forced to use an iphone. Go use an Android if you don’t want to pay the fees or dislike the walled garden.

 

[SoldOnApple]

So, by that reasoning, should Microsoft get a cut from everything that is installable on Windows?

Well Microsoft could charge for DirectX if they really wanted. They’d risk losing their stranglehold as the defacto OS for PC gaming though, Valve would love to see Windows replaced with a version of Linux that runs Steam become the defacto PC gaming OS, as Valve make 30% of each game sold through Steam. Microsoft charges money for Windows and charges money to upgrade to each new version. If you been gaming on PC for the last 30 years then chances are you’ve paid Microsoft thousands of dollars.

 

[ChromeCloud]

Tim Sweeney cries again.

It's funny how he complains about Apple not letting him build his own app store (the Epic Store) on iOS without paying any fees and then in the very same post he says that he wants to charge developers 0-12% of the revenues to host the apps on his store.

This guy is just hilarious.

 

[Abazigal]

Tim Sweeney cries again.

It's funny how he complains about Apple not letting him build his own app store (the Epic Store) on iOS without paying any fees and then in the very same post he says that he wants to charge developers 0-12% of the revenues to host the apps on his store.

This guy is just hilarious.

Epic is really the worst plaintiff for an App Store case.

They don't need to pay a licence fee like Spotify. There's no first-party offering from Apple that they have to undercut. Their IAPs are skins that have basically zero magical cost. Every cent they earn via Fortnite is practically pure profit. And they violated the rules of engagement first. Thus causing them to lose their lawsuit against Apple, and cementing Apple's grip over the App Store.

The more these companies speak more, the more you realise it has never been about empowering and benefitting smaller developers, only themselves. It was never about an App Store cut they had an issue with, only who gets to collect them.

 

[harold.ji]

They certainly do deserve a cut. Epic is using Apple’s development tools to create their software; they’ve also invested immense time in documenting all the APIs they’ve developed for developers (along with developing them). That’s a very large investment of which Epic is taking advantage.

Aren't developers forced to use Apple's development tools and APIs if they want their apps to be run on iOS? Are you suggesting that EU should further force iOS to be open? Or should iPhone users get to freely choose whatever operating system they prefer instead of being stuck with iOS? There is precedent that Intel-based Macs can natively run Windows without problems. Ridiculous. Apple's OS, Apple's responsibility. Those development tools and whatever investments in OS are not some additional services like Apple Music/News/TV that developers are free to choose.

 

[bousozoku]

That Core Technology Fee is BS and I hope the EU forces Apple to knock it off. We the consumers pay Apple's Core Technology Fee when we buy expensive devices at 35-45% markup. That's enough.

Of course, Apple doesn't have to pay for research and development, software development, software maintenance. It's all just parts and markup.

 

[bousozoku]

Epic is really the worst plaintiff for an App Store case.

They don't need to pay a licence fee like Spotify. There's no first-party offering from Apple that they have to undercut. Their IAPs are skins that have basically zero magical cost. Every cent they earn via Fortnite is practically pure profit. And they violated the rules of engagement first. Thus causing them to lose their lawsuit against Apple, and cementing Apple's grip over the App Store.

The more these companies speak more, the more you realise it has never been about empowering and benefitting smaller developers, only themselves. It was never about an App Store cut they had an issue with, only who gets to collect them.

Didn't Epic Games have a hack-and-slash game that Apple kept presenting as the best on iOS?

 

[Nugat Trailers]

Didn't Epic Games have a hack-and-slash game that Apple kept presenting as the best on iOS?

More then that.

Here's Epic Games showing off rendering Fortnite on Mac at WWDC 2015 through Metal.

And who's this walking on stage a year prior?!

 

[Born2Run]

Apple please for EU:
1. No support
2. Warranty voided
3. No Apples application availability
4. No apps store, just grey sideloaded market
5. Disconnect from iMessage and FaceTime

I think it should be...

iOS 'Normal' Edition - FREE
iOS 'Open' Edition - $99

 

[AppliedMicro]

I think it should be...

iOS 'Normal' Edition - FREE
iOS 'Open' Edition - $99

Doesn't matter.

iOS "Normal" Edition would - on itself - still be subject to the DMA and have to comply with it.

 

[Kebabselector]

Well done UK on leaving the E.U . Real good choice

Yay, we can't have alternative app stores - lets get out the bunting and celebrate the massive success Brexit is and continues to be!

 

[MacFarmer]

This Sweeney guy really wants a free ride on Apple's products. Of course pocketing any extra profits himself, not passing any savings to customers.

I once had some respect for this guy, but this Epic-Apple battle really showed that he is a fart. Can't be greedy enough. Hope he cant avoid this user fee anyway.

 

[ProfessionalFan]

Time to move there so I can use my V-Bucks

 

[31 Flavas]

If Apple is not providing the app store infrastructure, why do they deserve a cut?

You bought your phone, it's yours. You're downloading an app from Epic's app store. Apple has no part in this transaction anymore.

You've just described console video game hardware: Playstation, Xbox, and Nintendo. Typically the argument goes is that their hardware is "different" because the hardware is sold at a loss, at least initially. So they need a way to make that expense / cost back. But, what happens when they *do* make that cost back? Should the cost disappear? What happens if they don't sell inital systems at a loss, like Nintendo, who doesn't sell at a loss, or rarely does.

You bought the Playstation, or Xbox, or Switch or "GameBoy". It's yours. Why can't you download a game from the developer directly? Why can't developers release physical games directly? If they're not involving Sony, or Microsoft, or Nintendo directly why should any developer have to pay them anything? Why does the US and EU allow for this absolute despotic complete monopoly of their hardware.

It's the same as buying software for your computer. You buy a copy of, say, Turbo Tax, for your PC or Mac. You download it from Intuit's website, and install it. Why should Apple get a cut of that?

Believe it or not, that's because Intel allows for arbitrary code execution. But, they don't have to. Maybe you don't believe me. It's still perfectly allowable - That's what allowed (still allows) Nintendo, Sega, NEC, SNK, Sony, and Microsoft to lock their video game hardware.

Apple came up with this insane concept that they need to be paid by developers to write code for some of their devices. It's a completely insane idea that took off because obviously companies want to make more money, but the reality is if you're not using Apple's infrastructure to distribute the software, Apple doesn't deserve a single penny.

It's not Apple that came up with the concept, it's actually a legal mandate / precedence from the late 1970's / early 1980's. You have Atari vs Activision which established the necessity for "lock-out" chips or systems (which has lead to our modern day cryptographic signing). Long and short of it is that Atari lost because the Atari hardware allowed for arbitrary code execution.

And while Atari vs Activision legally enshrined / established that 3rd party development is perfectly legal and that 3rd party developers owe *NOTHING* to anyone for the code they write or sell -- 3rd party development is subjucated to the aformentioned lockout system. So a chip developer such as Intel or AMD (or system developer e.g. Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Apple, Google, etc) can lockout code and then license the use / execution of code.

So, while the EU has decided that Apple must allow for 3rd party App stores, unless we learn otherwise, Apple still gets to charge for code execution.

 

[wbeasley]

I think it should be...

iOS 'Normal' Edition - FREE
iOS 'Open' Edition - $99

Let's user set Country to decide if they want EU version or not.

iOS EU edition. Meets the requirements of the EU words (if not the spirit). Deadended, No further updates.
iOS Rest of the World continues to get new features in a nice walled garden.

Epic open alt store.
Users all yawn and go "yeah, nah".

Wait six months and see how many users the deadended version and how many stores are making no money and close.

 

[AppliedMicro]

iOS EU edition. Meets the requirements of the EU words (if not the spirit). Deadended, No further updates.
iOS Rest of the World continues to get new features in a nice walled garden.

Wait six months and see how many users the deadended version

…and for the EU to slap a large fine on Apple for circumvention of the DMA.

If everyone uses “Rest of the World” (as you imply) and Apple uses/distributes that to the EU, let alone offers an App Store to EU customers on it, it will still be subject to the DMA legislation.

👉 Offering an alternative “EU version“ for pro-forma compliance is no easy cop-out. And segmentation or division to circumvent the quantitative thresholds of the DMA is expressly forbidden.

Or are you trying to be another of those geniuses who suggest “Apple should just leave the EU”? And leave the billions of dollars it makes in it on the table, up for grabs for Samsung and other Android manufacturers? 🤣

 

[wbeasley]

…and for the EU to slap a large fine on Apple for circumvention of the DMA.

If everyone uses “Rest of the World” (as you imply) and Apple uses/distributes that to the EU, let alone offers an App Store to EU customers on it, it will still be subject to the DMA legislation.

👉 Offering an alternative “EU version“ for pro-forma compliance is no easy cop-out. And segmentation or division to circumvent the quantitative thresholds of the DMA is expressly forbidden.

Or are you trying to be another of those geniuses who suggest “Apple should just leave the EU”? And leave the billions of dollars it makes in it on the table, up for grabs for Samsung and other Android manufacturers? 🤣

ah but the EU is all about customer choice.
letting them choose what country they want to identify as to get the software experience they want. CHOICE.

why are you against that?

Apple is doing what it is asked to do by a very vague directive.
You arent going to be happy with what they are offering. That's clear.
Bet you dont think Apple should charge a Technology Access Fee, or sign apps. It's not the free and open outcome to allow easy sideloading.

There's nothing in the DMA that says Apple needs to keep parity with non-EU OS.
The setting for Region is user selectable. Apple cant be held accountable for a user picking a different Region/Country.

Why would you care if the phone owner picks a different setting?
Or would doing so show how few EU residents really dont want this EU directive on their phones?

 

[AppliedMicro]

ah but the EU is all about customer choice.

Exactly. And developer choice.

letting them choose what country they want to identify

Since Apple and developers have to pay VAT on purchases (along with obligations to respect local law, if necessary) can’t just freely choose their country.

as to get the software experience they want. CHOICE.

why are you against that?

I’m not against that, with regards to sideloading or purchasing from other stores. You want to conduct all transactions through Apple - fine, you only buy and download from the App Store. Wanna buy from Epic instead - fine as well, buy from their store. That’s choice.

Your idea of…

Deadended, No further updates.

…is preventing effective choice.

Bet you dont think Apple should charge a Technology Access Fee, or sign apps

Not when they’re abusing it to steer many, probably most developers towards their own App Store and old business terms by not charging fees on their terms. And preferencing their own apps and services.

I’m not very much opposed to them charging such a fee indiscriminately - it would just make consumers reconsider their choice of a phone and being nickel-and-dimed by greedy Apple.

There's nothing in the DMA that says Apple needs to keep parity with non-EU OS.

Agree.

But again: they can call their service “non-EU version”, “euOS” or whatever they like - as long as they’re are present in the EU market, selling iPhones and targeting or steering their customers towards a version, it remains subject to legislation.

There's nothing in the DMA that says Apple needs to keep parity with non-EU OS.

👉 And there’s nothing preventing the EU from treating “non-EU iOS” as a Core Platform Service subject to EU regulation.

Especially when, as you seem to imply above, “everybody” will use that version regardless.

When Apple are selling apps, in-app purchases and subscriptions to EU customers on iOS and through their App Store, they’re still providing service in the EU. Regardless of region setting.

 

[wbeasley]

Exactly. And developer choice.

Since Apple and developers have to pay VAT on purchases (along with obligations to respect local law, if necessary) can’t just freely choose their country.

I’m not against that, with regards to sideloading or purchasing from other stores. You want to conduct all transactions through Apple - fine, you only buy and download from the App Store. Wanna buy from Epic instead - fine as well, buy from their store. That’s choice.

Your idea of…

…is preventing effective choice.


Not when they’re abusing it to steer many, probably most developers towards their own App Store and old business terms by not charging fees on their terms. And preferencing their own apps and services.

I’m not very much opposed to them charging such a fee indiscriminately - it would just make consumers reconsider their choice of a phone and being nickel-and-dimed by greedy Apple.


Agree.

But again: they can call their service “non-EU version”, “euOS” or whatever they like - as long as they’re are present in the EU market, selling iPhones and targeting or steering their customers towards a version, it remains subject to legislation.

👉 And there’s nothing preventing the EU from treating “non-EU iOS” as a Core Platform Service subject to EU regulation.

Especially when, as you seem to imply above, “everybody” will use that version regardless.

When Apple are selling apps, in-app purchases and subscriptions to EU customers on iOS and through their App Store, they’re still providing service in the EU. Regardless of region setting.

All i read is you're not happy that a tech solution exists for EU users to avoid what the EU "pro choice" group are FORCING on EU residents

Apple cant be held accountable for EU users selecting a different country.
Visitors would have different Country/Region settings on their phones and operate on nonEU rules
Europe could suddenly just have a lot more visitors running iOS...

There are EU residents on another post saying they dont want what the EU is forcing on them.
The reactions are on 10% against what the person wrote.
I dont see new reports of EU farmers marching on the streets about this.
Public transport workers not striking.
Usually EU people are vocal when they dont like something.

And bottom line, what Apple has set up to comply with the wording STILL doesnt let you do what you want: install any app without cost.

 

[wbeasley]

…and for the EU to slap a large fine on Apple for circumvention of the DMA.

If everyone uses “Rest of the World” (as you imply) and Apple uses/distributes that to the EU, let alone offers an App Store to EU customers on it, it will still be subject to the DMA legislation.

👉 Offering an alternative “EU version“ for pro-forma compliance is no easy cop-out. And segmentation or division to circumvent the quantitative thresholds of the DMA is expressly forbidden.

Or are you trying to be another of those geniuses who suggest “Apple should just leave the EU”? And leave the billions of dollars it makes in it on the table, up for grabs for Samsung and other Android manufacturers? 🤣

did I say Apple should leave the EU?

No, I just said there is a very viable option for Apple

 

[wbeasley]

Exactly. And developer choice.

Since Apple and developers have to pay VAT on purchases (along with obligations to respect local law, if necessary) can’t just freely choose their country.

I’m not against that, with regards to sideloading or purchasing from other stores. You want to conduct all transactions through Apple - fine, you only buy and download from the App Store. Wanna buy from Epic instead - fine as well, buy from their store. That’s choice.

Your idea of…

…is preventing effective choice.


Not when they’re abusing it to steer many, probably most developers towards their own App Store and old business terms by not charging fees on their terms. And preferencing their own apps and services.

I’m not very much opposed to them charging such a fee indiscriminately - it would just make consumers reconsider their choice of a phone and being nickel-and-dimed by greedy Apple.


Agree.

But again: they can call their service “non-EU version”, “euOS” or whatever they like - as long as they’re are present in the EU market, selling iPhones and targeting or steering their customers towards a version, it remains subject to legislation.

👉 And there’s nothing preventing the EU from treating “non-EU iOS” as a Core Platform Service subject to EU regulation.

Especially when, as you seem to imply above, “everybody” will use that version regardless.

When Apple are selling apps, in-app purchases and subscriptions to EU customers on iOS and through their App Store, they’re still providing service in the EU. Regardless of region setting.

Since you are so vocal in what the EU has decreed as being necessary to allow alt app stores, what it is that you personally want to install and run on your phone that you cant now?

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple cant be held accountable for EU users selecting a different country.

Yes they can.

If I'm in the EU and choose and set my country to the U.S. Virgin Islands and use my payment card to buy an app or a service over the internet without paying VAT, I may get away with it - and so may the seller.

If dozens of EU residents do the same and use their EU payment cards to buy from the same seller, the seller will be subject to European VAT and have to register.

It can be held accountable for users selecting a different country. Limitations apply in practice (enforcement) - but with Apple it's reasonably simply, since they're present in the EU.

did I say Apple should leave the EU?

No, I just said there is a very viable option for Apple

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying: Segmenting iOS into an EU version and a non-EU version won't fly, if everyone in the EU prefers the "non-EU" version. It will still remain subject to regulation - unless Apple leaves the EU.

Since you are so vocal in what the EU has decreed as being necessary to allow alt app stores, what it is that you personally want to install and run on your phone that you cant now?

Open source software. Emulators. Programming IDEs.
You know, apps that can run code that has not been controlled by Apple.
Maybe I'll even get cheeky with a vaping, gambling or erotic entertainment app, who knows?

Also, I do want to be able to purchase apps directly from the developer, without an unnecessary middleman leeching on that transaction.

 

[wbeasley]

Yes they can.

If I'm in the EU and choose and set my country to the U.S. Virgin Islands and use my payment card to buy an app or a service over the internet without paying VAT, I may get away with it - and so may the seller.

If dozens of EU residents do the same and use their EU payment cards to buy from the same seller, the seller will be subject to European VAT and have to register.

It can be held accountable for users selecting a different country. Limitations apply in practice (enforcement) - but with Apple it's reasonably simply, since they're present in the EU.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying: Segmenting iOS into an EU version and a non-EU version won't fly, if everyone in the EU prefers the "non-EU" version. It will still remain subject to regulation - unless Apple leaves the EU.


Open source software. Emulators. Programming IDEs.
You know, apps that can run code that has not been controlled by Apple.
Maybe I'll even get cheeky with a vaping, gambling or erotic entertainment app, who knows?

Also, I do want to be able to purchase apps directly from the developer, without an unnecessary middleman leeching on that transaction.

And there we have it...

Who the hell wants to run a programming IDE on a phone screen? Really?
Open source software? How vague can you be? Which ones?
The rest of your list are basically non money making options... why would a store think it can make money off that?
Vaping? Righto. Says how seriously you are treating this topic.
You know you can gamble and look at porn on websites? You dont need an app for that.
You can run your emulators and pirated ROMS on Android or desktops/laptops.
Touch screens arent great for game controllers.

All these still arent going to be available in the alt app stores...

There are already many software companies that sell direct and aren't cheaper than the app store for Mac software.
The new iOS stores aren't necessarily going to be cheaper. They will keep the 15-30% they now pay Apple. Like they pay retail stores to sell their software or skins etc. Usually a lot more than 30% for a retail item. Kind of makes the App Store look like good value which is why the majority of software devs like the store and don't moan about the commission.

The EU is the one causing a segmenting of iOS. Apple are releasing features ONLY for the EU users...
The rest of us will be shielded as best they can from that code.
Effectively it will be two versions of iOS with the choice being internal to the OS.
Bit like apps that have all the features but lock down pro features for you to buy.

 

[wbeasley]

Yes they can.

If I'm in the EU and choose and set my country to the U.S. Virgin Islands and use my payment card to buy an app or a service over the internet without paying VAT, I may get away with it - and so may the seller.

If dozens of EU residents do the same and use their EU payment cards to buy from the same seller, the seller will be subject to European VAT and have to register.

It can be held accountable for users selecting a different country. Limitations apply in practice (enforcement) - but with Apple it's reasonably simply, since they're present in the EU.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying: Segmenting iOS into an EU version and a non-EU version won't fly, if everyone in the EU prefers the "non-EU" version. It will still remain subject to regulation - unless Apple leaves the EU.


Open source software. Emulators. Programming IDEs.
You know, apps that can run code that has not been controlled by Apple.
Maybe I'll even get cheeky with a vaping, gambling or erotic entertainment app, who knows?

Also, I do want to be able to purchase apps directly from the developer, without an unnecessary middleman leeching on that transaction.

Even on Android, running IDEs gets this response to a Reddit question...

Looking for a good IDE for Android Tablet. ​

I've been looking around recently for a good IDE I can use on the go with my Galaxy Tab s7. So far i have not seen to many powerful IDE's i can use without a network connection. I would like to know if anyone has any apps/workarounds for IDE's that i can use without a network connection.
Requirements:
- Free (or no subscription)
- No cloud IDE's
- No required network connection.
- Run code in IDE
- Interact with file system
- Able to work with github/package managers
- Minimal set up (optional)
- Able to use C# programming language.

Responses:

lol. tablet is hard. the nearest just php,mysql and apache.Buy a good windows/mac instead. Tablet purpose for entertainment or meeting can lah .

You're not going to find anything like that. When you're on the go, without a network connection especially, just enjoy yourself and take a break. You'll be a better programmer when you get back on the computer.

Lmao

Lol bro c’mon you joking right 😆

MAME Emulation?​

As the title suggests, is there any arcade/MAME emulator out there for iOS (preferably one that supports the iPhone X)?

Responses:

There hasn't been one for almost 5 years, and that one was disguised as a single old arcade game, but you could get it to run arbitrary ROMs. Apple has a general ban on emulators because they are used for "piracy".


Here's the Vaping app you need:

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apps.apple.com

 

[AppliedMicro]

Who the hell wants to run a programming IDE on a phone screen? Really?

On iPadOS, admittedly. The OS the EU is investigating for inclusion as a gatekeeper.

The rest of your list are basically non money making options... why would a store think it can make money off that?

Who says everything in a store needs to be profitabl?
Same argument as when Apple distributes free apps.
But the store could also simply make money by charging me for a download.

There are already many software companies that sell direct and aren't cheaper than the app store for Mac software.

Sure - and there are many that sell direct and are cheaper - and I’ve bought apps cheaper from them.

The new iOS stores aren't necessarily going to be cheaper.

Not necessarily but most probably. Others are proving it can be done for 12% commission or less, instead of Apple‘s 30 (for popular paid apps).

👉 Competition will settle that question swiftly.

Like they pay retail stores to sell their software or skins etc. Usually a lot more than 30% for a retail item

Kind of funny how the fanboys’ and apologists’ best argument for justifying the fairness of a 30% rate is (physical) retail margins - when Apple themselves make a salient distinction by only charging for products/services not

Retail stores stock and physically secure their products - while software download stores have a totally different cost structure.

The rest of us will be shielded as best they can from that code.

Sideloading has been around for years and will be - it’s just that Apple contractually doesn’t allow it for distribution to consumers - for commercial reasons.