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WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
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If you're in the US, you pretty much have to go out of your way to look for the 90gsm. Most of what you find is 80gsm.
Actually, I learned by accident that a local store has some Rhodia products. And, even though I'm in the US, it appears that some are 90gsm. Weird that something apparently rare turns up in the one store that I know of that carries Rhodia!

They also have 80gsm. I am busy resisting temptation, but I have a funny feeling this might be a lost cause... Actually, I have consciously thought that I might get some. It's too expensive for my current daily use, but I'd like to try it. It would give a reference point to compare other paper to.
 
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WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
This week's big excitement--the store I mentioned above that has Rhodia also has ink! (If I find this exciting, I guess I need to get out more!) On a practical level, I was happy, since I knew I needed ink soon. I'm toying with ordering some fountain pen toys products, but I'm not ready for that. A local supply of ink means a fast, easy fix.
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
I'd call any local source of ink a win! I can go to Office Max here and buy Parker and Waterman(long) cartridges in blue or black, and I think they may have one brand of international. Bottled ink is a never heard of it thing, though.

What brand(s) can you get locally? Hopefully they have Pelikan or Wateman for a safe easy option with a lot of colors, although a lot of Diamine inks are excellent and safe in most pens. Pilot makes some great inks too, and the iroshizuku by Pilot inks are fantastic(if not a bit expensive-but worth it) but many Pilot and Japanese inks in general(sailor and platinum) are known troublemakers in vintage pens with latex sacs. Some of the boutique brands like Noodlers, Private Reserve(one I use to buy locally all the time) and Organic Studios CAN be difficult inks to use in any pen.

Noodlers in particular comes with some baggage that may or may not bother you. It's quite literally one guy who makes over 100 different inks in his basement. Many are insanely permanent, many others are have some interesting properties, and some combine both of those into a single ink. The owners political views can be front and center through the names of inks, their colors and properties, and the label art(plus Nathan, the owner, is quite a student of history and there tends to be a lot on the labels to keep them interesting). There's been some more recent controversy that resulted in a bunch of inks being renamed. You can find that if you want. The other thing about Noodlers inks is that there's a certain ethos to the company that emphasizes quality and economy, and to that end he charges relatively low prices for his inks(currently most are $14 for a 3 oz bottle) and fills them absolutely to the brim(annoying so because plunging a pen into a new bottle will inevitably cause ink to run down the sides-I often pipette some out into a small vial to get the level a bit lower). I find that Noodlers inks in particular are very well behaved on lowest bidder copy paper and other common commodity papers papers, but can act up when used on good paper-normally with super long dry times(I've been taking meeting notes in in an A4 notebook of Oxford Optic paper with Liberty's Elysium, a normally well behaved semi-permanent blue and found that the first few lines were still wet enough to smudge/transfer by the time I got to the bottom of the page).

If you're close to a Montblanc dealer, generally they'll have a good selection of bottled ink. Depending on the size of the dealer and how "into" selling pens they are, you may only find blue/black/blue-black. I love Montblanc inks and their bottle is one of the better designs around plus very distinctive, and they're also generally safe in all pens. The only current MB ink I hold in disdain is Modena Red, which wouldn't be a horrible ink were it not for the fact that it replaced a fantastic red(Corn Poppy Red). If you find MB Corn Poppy, which was only discontinued a couple of years ago, grab a few bottles as even if you don't take to it, unopened bottles are reliably $40-60 on the secondary market.

MB makes a ton of limited edition inks, most of which come in 30 or 50mL "cube" bottles that are about $1/mL. I have a bunch of them-some are great colors and something interesting, while others are just okay. They have a habit sometimes of "recycling" an older LE ink under a new name. This is good in the sense that a lot of older LEs are a bit pricey on the secondary market, although they seem reluctant to recycle some of the real standouts like Shakespeare Velvet Red or DaVinci red chalk.

Just as a big caution, and I maybe should have put this first-be absolutely sure the inks you're buying are fountain pen inks and not "calligraphy" inks. Fountain pen inks are generally dye based, while a lot of calligraphy inks are meant to be used in dip pens and tend to have pigments that will clog fountain pens. This is also true of India Ink, which can have shellac and other bad players in addition to the carbon pigment. There are FP-safe pigment inks-they're a relatively new product and contain nanoparticle pigments that stay in suspension by Brownian motion. MB Permanent Blue and Permanent Black are in this category, as well as some Sailor inks. The MB inks meet ISO standards for permanence and were the first FP inks I'm aware of to carry that guarantee, although they're likely not the only that would meet it. There's also a Pelikan India Ink called Fount India that's supposed to be FP safe, but I've never tried it.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
I'd call any local source of ink a win! I can go to Office Max here and buy Parker and Waterman(long) cartridges in blue or black, and I think they may have one brand of international. Bottled ink is a never heard of it thing, though.

What brand(s) can you get locally? Hopefully they have Pelikan or Wateman for a safe easy option with a lot of colors, although a lot of Diamine inks are excellent and safe in most pens. Pilot makes some great inks too, and the iroshizuku by Pilot inks are fantastic(if not a bit expensive-but worth it) but many Pilot and Japanese inks in general(sailor and platinum) are known troublemakers in vintage pens with latex sacs. Some of the boutique brands like Noodlers, Private Reserve(one I use to buy locally all the time) and Organic Studios CAN be difficult inks to use in any pen.

Noodlers in particular comes with some baggage that may or may not bother you. It's quite literally one guy who makes over 100 different inks in his basement. Many are insanely permanent, many others are have some interesting properties, and some combine both of those into a single ink. The owners political views can be front and center through the names of inks, their colors and properties, and the label art(plus Nathan, the owner, is quite a student of history and there tends to be a lot on the labels to keep them interesting). There's been some more recent controversy that resulted in a bunch of inks being renamed. You can find that if you want. The other thing about Noodlers inks is that there's a certain ethos to the company that emphasizes quality and economy, and to that end he charges relatively low prices for his inks(currently most are $14 for a 3 oz bottle) and fills them absolutely to the brim(annoying so because plunging a pen into a new bottle will inevitably cause ink to run down the sides-I often pipette some out into a small vial to get the level a bit lower). I find that Noodlers inks in particular are very well behaved on lowest bidder copy paper and other common commodity papers papers, but can act up when used on good paper-normally with super long dry times(I've been taking meeting notes in in an A4 notebook of Oxford Optic paper with Liberty's Elysium, a normally well behaved semi-permanent blue and found that the first few lines were still wet enough to smudge/transfer by the time I got to the bottom of the page).

If you're close to a Montblanc dealer, generally they'll have a good selection of bottled ink. Depending on the size of the dealer and how "into" selling pens they are, you may only find blue/black/blue-black. I love Montblanc inks and their bottle is one of the better designs around plus very distinctive, and they're also generally safe in all pens. The only current MB ink I hold in disdain is Modena Red, which wouldn't be a horrible ink were it not for the fact that it replaced a fantastic red(Corn Poppy Red). If you find MB Corn Poppy, which was only discontinued a couple of years ago, grab a few bottles as even if you don't take to it, unopened bottles are reliably $40-60 on the secondary market.

MB makes a ton of limited edition inks, most of which come in 30 or 50mL "cube" bottles that are about $1/mL. I have a bunch of them-some are great colors and something interesting, while others are just okay. They have a habit sometimes of "recycling" an older LE ink under a new name. This is good in the sense that a lot of older LEs are a bit pricey on the secondary market, although they seem reluctant to recycle some of the real standouts like Shakespeare Velvet Red or DaVinci red chalk.

Just as a big caution, and I maybe should have put this first-be absolutely sure the inks you're buying are fountain pen inks and not "calligraphy" inks. Fountain pen inks are generally dye based, while a lot of calligraphy inks are meant to be used in dip pens and tend to have pigments that will clog fountain pens. This is also true of India Ink, which can have shellac and other bad players in addition to the carbon pigment. There are FP-safe pigment inks-they're a relatively new product and contain nanoparticle pigments that stay in suspension by Brownian motion. MB Permanent Blue and Permanent Black are in this category, as well as some Sailor inks. The MB inks meet ISO standards for permanence and were the first FP inks I'm aware of to carry that guarantee, although they're likely not the only that would meet it. There's also a Pelikan India Ink called Fount India that's supposed to be FP safe, but I've never tried it.
Wow.

What a fantastic and wonderfully informative post.

Thank you.

As a student, I used bottled ink all of the time, - for I wrote with a fountain pen, even then, - but these days, as I travel a lot, cartridges work far better for me.

However, I must investigate MB bottled ink.
 

WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
I'd call any local source of ink a win!
It is!

I can go to Office Max here and buy Parker and Waterman(long) cartridges in blue or black, and I think they may have one brand of international. Bottled ink is a never heard of it thing, though.

That's the case where I am with Office Depot (which is merged with Office Max). Except recently the stock level has been just about non-existent. I feel like I'm visiting a ghost town when I visit that part of the store! For example, they supposedly carry Waterman cartridges--but for the last month, the only way to get a Waterman cartridge is to buy a Waterman pen and throw the pen away!

I suppose it's supply chain issues. And I wonder if the holiday season wasn't an issue. I can imagine, at least, an uptick in ink sales to people who haul out ye olde faithful fountain pen once a year when they send Christmas cards!

That other store which I found the other day has a limited selection cartridges and bottled ink--but at least they have choices for regular fountain pens used for regular writing.
 
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WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
As a student, I used bottled ink all of the time, - for I wrote with a fountain pen, even then, - but these days, as I travel a lot, cartridges work far better for me.

Years back, I used bottled ink all the time, too. One pen (vintage) could only use bottled ink. Another pen could use either bottled ink or a cartridge--and I'd bet that was always used with bottled ink.

Currently, I'm using cartridges--but I think I'll go back to bottled ink, at least for pens that get heavily used. Bottled ink is cheaper--and it does give more choices.

Fortunately, it's not an either/other choice--one can select the approach that works the best for a given pen or current circumstances.
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
Years back, I used bottled ink all the time, too. One pen (vintage) could only use bottled ink. Another pen could use either bottled ink or a cartridge--and I'd bet that was always used with bottled ink.

Currently, I'm using cartridges--but I think I'll go back to bottled ink, at least for pens that get heavily used. Bottled ink is cheaper--and it does give more choices.

Fortunately, it's not an either/other choice--one can select the approach that works the best for a given pen or current circumstances.

It's hard for me to imagine not using bottled ink.

Granted I have a dislike-in general-of C/C pens and I have very few of them. Parker 75s and modern Duofolds are about the only ones I have. At least I do really like the Parker cartridge design and think it's well thought out with a lot of ink capacity and molded vertical ribs to break the surface tension. Parker piston converters are okay but they do tend to leak after about 10 years of use. The older squeeze converters are nice but hold very little ink(that design really needs a breather tube, like on Parker aeromatic pens, to fill completely and the converters don't have it).

Not too long ago I was looking at buying something to mark a special occasion and looked seriously at a Yard-o-led pen. I love the design in general, the beautiful craftmanship, and also for why I wanted it liked that I'd get one with a 2023 hallmark. I have a really tough time stomaching over $1K for a C/C pen, though.

With MB ink, bottles are almost a no-brainer. In the US, the non-permanent inks are around $20-25 for a 60mL bottle. An international cartridges, which is what Montblanc cartridges basically are, hold around .7mL of ink(the excellent MB screw-in converter will hold closer to 1mL). In the US they're around $7.50 for a box of 8.

For on-the-go travel, Visconti and Pineider both make travelling ink wells. They're really great designs(I have a Pineider that I always keep filled with one of my favorite inks-MB Toffee Brown) that hold about 10mL of ink and are designed to seal around the section of a pen and give a mess-free fill. They work with quite literally any filling system, and can adjust to something as small as a Parker 75 or as big as a Montblanc 149 without issue. I highly recommend them, and especially the much less expensive but functionally equivalent Pineider.
 

GerritV

macrumors 68020
May 11, 2012
2,264
2,729
Bottled ink does it for me, preferably black - simple and straightforward.
However, ATM I'm trying out a selfmade mix of black and blue.
 
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FreakinEurekan

macrumors 604
Sep 8, 2011
6,539
3,417
I love this thread; it is informative, instructive, educational and endlessly interesting, not to mention a most congenial and warjm and welcoming place where one can meet fellow enthusiasts for acquiring, collecting, and writing with (and about) fountain pens.
I appreciate as well the acceptance of a neophyte like me.

Question for people who carry a fountain pen - do you carry a bit of blotting paper with you as well? I signed a receipt at a restaurant the other day, on that horrid typical receipt paper (heat-activated printing). As I was putting it back in the tray my finger touched the signature and it smeared badly. Fortunately it didn’t wipe out the tip or anything 😬 but it did get me curious about blotting.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
I appreciate as well the acceptance of a neophyte like me.

Question for people who carry a fountain pen - do you carry a bit of blotting paper with you as well? I signed a receipt at a restaurant the other day, on that horrid typical receipt paper (heat-activated printing). As I was putting it back in the tray my finger touched the signature and it smeared badly. Fortunately it didn’t wipe out the tip or anything 😬 but it did get me curious about blotting.
No, I don't carry blotting paper.

Instead, when possible, I purchase good quality paper to write with (Leuchstturm1917, Rhodia, and the like).

And, for situations where ink will smear - the use of that shiny paper (in general, I have found that I can write with my MB fountain pen on standard paper receipts, but some do use that perfectly ghastly and quite horrid shiny paper), mea culpa, I have succumbed to the use of a roller-ball pen, MB, with black ink.

However, I have had situations where I have had to print (and sign) forms which were then rendered in pdf (and put on a usb stick) for transmission to those who had requested them, official stuff; in this context, the paper used was invariably disgusting, and, when I have signed with a fountain pen, I would have to wait - curbing my impatience, sometimes for minutes, for the ink to dry, so that the paper can be taken to be rendered into a pdf format.
 
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WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
It's hard for me to imagine not using bottled ink.

I think that might have been my feeling once... I got a cheap pen when I was a teenager--who knows why, since I had at least 1 nicer pen at the time--that used cartridges, and I'd bet that was my first experience with cartridges.

Not sure what happened in recent years. (Temporary insanity--except it's been years, so it's not so temporary!) Actually, I do know that none of the pens I'm using have the ability to take anything but a cartridge. (One might have had a convertor new--but when I got it, used, ti didn't include a convertor.) It's easy to argue "with my light use, cartridges will be tolerable." But now I'm using a fountain pen a lot more than I have in years...so bottled ink only makes sense. I'm pondering options. Buy another pen that includes a convertor? Just buy a convertor for an existing pen? Or try refilling cartridges? (I'm saving the empties so I at least have the option.)
 
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WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
The older squeeze converters are nice but hold very little ink(that design really needs a breather tube, like on Parker aeromatic pens, to fill completely and the converters don't have it).
I'm not sure if the Parker I used years back had the exact system you are thinking of. But I vaguely recall a squeeze system. The one thing I also recall--it did seem like that pen needed refilling more than the Sheaffer I had. But it wasn't a really big deal, since it never left my desk.
 
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WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
Question for people who carry a fountain pen - do you carry a bit of blotting paper with you as well? I signed a receipt at a restaurant the other day, on that horrid typical receipt paper (heat-activated printing).
In my case, I have fountain pen experience--but have had a few years away. Now, one goal I had starting 2023 was to use fountain pens exclusively. Maybe that was my resolution--and a much more fun resolution than "exercise more!!!" Then, any resolution would have to be more fun than more exercise!

But a couple of times, I decided to ignore my goal and use a ballpoint when I wasn't sure what havoc would occur when I tried a fountain pen on some unknown paper that was important. One time was with endorsing a couple of checks--just to make sure they go through, and I used a ballpoint, since I wanted zero problem with the endorsement. The other time was signing one of those crappy receipts at my credit union for cash withdrawal. (The amusing thing was I didn't withdraw a cent--I just had them break a bill down for me. But policy requires a signature.) That time, I could possibly have risked a fountain pen--I don't think signature quality is any real concern for them--but the ballpoint was lying there, ready.

But there have been times I've tried a fountain pen, and been unpleasantly surprised. One pen (which I got new late 2022) seemed so well behaved. It worked well on what would have been Christmas cards had I mailed them on time. Then, I had to make one pen and ink correction on a letter that I'd printed to go with one card--and it was a mess. It looked so awful that I made an executive decision to reprint.

I'm sure, as time trying to use a fountain pen exclusively goes by, I'll figure out the best way to deal with various problems...

One thing worth noting--if faced with a certain situation regularly, it might be possible to find a pen/ink combination that will cope. Some inks are more tolerant of terrible paper. I hear a lot of people swear by fine nibs, too. (Makes sense, since a fine nib will put less ink down on the page.)
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
I am essentially an exclusive fountain pen user. In fact I needed a ballpoint the other day(to write on something that wouldn't have taken an FP) and ended up going digging and turned up a Parker 75 BP that matches one of my FPs. I always shirt pocket carry at least one, and often two or three(typically one of my 149s and a Parker 51).

I don't worry about blotter paper. I will wave receipt paper around in the air for a minute to help it dry before handing it over.

Also, it's worth mentioning that the issue with cheap copy paper often isn't the long dry time. It's often that it's too absorbent, which leads to feathering and bleed through, but also often does give fast dry times. The better quality pressed or coated papers(including Rhodia, Oxford, Clairefontaine, etc) are often the ones with dry time issues if they are going to present. Many high quality Japanese papers are super slick and can have obnoxious dry times.
 

WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
The talk of of digging for a ballpoint pen somehow reminded me of a teacher I had in high school who used a fountain pen. (The only teacher I ever had, too, who used one--most just use whatever the supply room supplied.) He kept one ballpoint pen in his classroom, carefully stored in his lectern (or so I assumed) so he could find it when needed.

The other funny thing--people who use ballpoints exclusively also have that experience of digging for a pen...even though they might have dozens. Most ballpoints are so cheap, so without personality that there is no need to be conscious of where the pen is...until you need one, now!!!!

Then, of course, when that ballpoint gets found, it's possible it won't work--so the search is started all over. What fun! (Or it may work after a struggle. Or work, but drip globs of ink. And they say fountain pens are cranky!)
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
One purchased a couple of weeks ago, but only recently arrived.

IMG_2921.jpeg

IMG_2922.jpeg


IMG_2923.jpeg
IMG_2924.jpeg
IMG_2925.jpeg


This is a Yard-O-Led "Grand Victorian." Yes, it may look a bit over-the-top but this really is a special pen. Yard-O-Led(YOL) is an old company that historically has made pencils. Specifically, they made propelling pencils that held 12 3" sticks of lead, or a yard of lead. Their fountain pens are a more recent product, but are made with the same care.

Like all YOL products, it's made almost entirely of sterling silver-just the nib, feed and a few other assorted parts are not. The chasing on the barrel-the "Victorian" pattern, is done entirely by hand b master silversmiths and no two are alike.

This pen is big, imposing, and heavy but it really is an object of beauty.
 

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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
One purchased a couple of weeks ago, but only recently arrived.

View attachment 2162170
View attachment 2162174

View attachment 2162175 View attachment 2162172 View attachment 2162173

This is a Yard-O-Led "Grand Victorian." Yes, it may look a bit over-the-top but this really is a special pen. Yard-O-Led(YOL) is an old company that historically has made pencils. Specifically, they made propelling pencils that held 12 3" sticks of lead, or a yard of lead. Their fountain pens are a more recent product, but are made with the same care.

Like all YOL products, it's made almost entirely of sterling silver-just the nib, feed and a few other assorted parts are not. The chasing on the barrel-the "Victorian" pattern, is done entirely by hand b master silversmiths and no two are alike.

This pen is big, imposing, and heavy but it really is an object of beauty.

Gorgeous pen.

How do you find it for writing? How is it ergonomically, and how comfortable do you find it?

Well over a decade ago, I purchased a Yard-O-Led pen, - at that time, most of the time, I wrote with fountain pens made by Caran d'Ache - and yes, while utterly beautiful (the purchase was pure indulgence), to be quite candid, I found it too big and heavy for comfort, when writing.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
Gorgeous pen.

How do you find it for writing? How is it ergonomically, and how comfortable do you find it?

Well over a decade ago, I purchased a Yard-O-Led pen, - at that time, most of the time, I wrote with fountain pens made by Caran d'Ache - and yes, while utterly beautiful (the purchase was pure indulgence), to be quite candid, I found it too big and heavy for comfort, when writing.
It is heavy, and I normally don't like heavy pens but the balance is quite good and I don't find it tiring or draining to use(as often happens with heavy and poorly balanced pens, particularly back heavy ones). I was a bit afraid of the slippery section but it feels fine to me.

The "Grand" size pens are in the size range of an MB 149 or Pelikan M1000, which is a size I find comfortable but I realize that many don't. I specifically opted for the Grand as I thought the size would be more to my liking.

I think the nib is a Jowo product. It's fine but sort of boring. I opted for a B and it does have a bit of springiness, but only enough to open to a BB or so with deliberate pressure. I like a bit more character, but it's perfectly functional for what it does and sometimes a simple nib is what's needed.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
It is heavy, and I normally don't like heavy pens but the balance is quite good and I don't find it tiring or draining to use(as often happens with heavy and poorly balanced pens, particularly back heavy ones). I was a bit afraid of the slippery section but it feels fine to me.

The "Grand" size pens are in the size range of an MB 149 or Pelikan M1000, which is a size I find comfortable but I realize that many don't. I specifically opted for the Grand as I thought the size would be more to my liking.

I think the nib is a Jowo product. It's fine but sort of boring. I opted for a B and it does have a bit of springiness, but only enough to open to a BB or so with deliberate pressure. I like a bit more character, but it's perfectly functional for what it does and sometimes a simple nib is what's needed.
Enjoy and well wear; it is a gorgeous pen.
 

GerritV

macrumors 68020
May 11, 2012
2,264
2,729
Big LAMY fan here. What I love: great design, German engineering, smooth writing, affordable.
Here's my humble collection with the Persona (B), CP1 (F), 2000 (M) and Safari Vista (1,1mm).
They are always inked and ready to write and draw.

LAMY.jpeg
 

WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
Big LAMY fan here.

A local store has a Lamy of some sort (I'm thinking Safari--but I'm not 100% sure) on display. It's inked with paper available. I've tried it, and it's a very nice pen. I'm tempted. I must resist temptation. I must resist temptation. I must...
 
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WriteNow

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2021
383
397
The other problematic temptation I'm faced with is at Office Depot. One store is having a clearance sale on a few Pilot pens. I've been curious about Pilot, having heard so many good things. It was a struggle to resist tempation. But the prices aren't that great--for $3 or so more, I could order the same pen on-line, and be able to get a color that I like better than what I saw at Office Depot.
 
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GerritV

macrumors 68020
May 11, 2012
2,264
2,729
A local store has a Lamy of some sort (I'm thinking Safari--but I'm not 100% sure) on display. It's inked with paper available. I've tried it, and it's a very nice pen. I'm tempted. I must resist temptation. I must resist temptation. I must...

You can recognize the Safari by its typical triangular section.
Also, you can buy separate nibs for it. Changing nibs is really easy.
Sorry if that made temptation even bigger now.
 
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GerritV

macrumors 68020
May 11, 2012
2,264
2,729
The other problematic temptation I'm faced with is at Office Depot. One store is having a clearance sale on a few Pilot pens. I've been curious about Pilot, having heard so many good things. It was a struggle to resist tempation. But the prices aren't that great--for $3 or so more, I could order the same pen on-line, and be able to get a color that I like better than what I saw at Office Depot.

Would you know what specific Pilot model this is about ?
 
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