Fountain pen users, rejoice!

[Scepticalscribe]

What was your ink refill methods? I started off with one that had a lever on the side, you pulled out the lever, dipped the pen nib in the ink bottle, pulled the lever back and it sucked up the ink.

That is what I used to do in the days when I bought (and use) ink in a bottle.

Then, I started using cartridges, and still use them, chiefly for the convenience, but also because I travel a lot, (and on planes, the leaking issues that @laptech mentioned can be an issue).

 

[GerritV]

Just out of interest, how was you taught to write using a fountain pen? At my school, we all had to start off writing using a pencil because we was not allowed to use ink based pens until we was taught how to use them and we did that in our English lessons (Literature and Language). The teacher would give us all a fountain pen to use and a bottle of ink. We was shown how to fill the pen with ink and then provide us with lined paper. On the blackboard the teacher had simulated the lines on the paper and using chalk would show how to write letters and words using the full height of the lines. Only certain letters used the full height of the lines such as when writing a capital letter and letters such as p and g and y had to be written so that only a specific amount of the letter was allowed under the line. I am not sure if this was supposed to be how one should write but the teacher used to say that writing words should be one fluid movement, basically the letters being joined up and this was done in a specific way. I love seeing how joined up writing it done, it looks so elegant but it is something I failed at badly at school. No matter how I tried I just could not do it.

Below is an example of lined paper we would use at school in being taught how to use a fountain pen and write letters with it. I can still remember it to this day having to write each letter of the alphabet in capital letters making sure we went from bottom of the line to the top of the line. If the teacher thought it looked messy we was told to stop and try again from the beginning.

View attachment 2354431

While I don't remember my very first experience with a fountain pen, I do remember learning handwriting with a slate pencil on a wood framed slate. I'm including a picture, because some of you may be clueless
It looks like an Apple Pencil on an iPad, doesn't it ?

Fast forward to the early Eighties, I joined up with a colleague architect to do some large building projects, and he was heavily into fountain pens. So that's when I picked up the pace again. A Sheaffer Targa was the first one I purchased back then, followed by a Lamy 2000.

 

[GerritV]

That is what I used to do in the days when I bought (and use) ink in a bottle.

Then, I started using cartridges, and still use them, chiefly for the convenience, but also because I travel a lot, (and on planes, the leaking issues that @laptech mentioned can be an issue).

Traveling a lot with planes would make a perfect excuse to get a vacuum filler

 

[GerritV]

My suspicion is just based on realities of changes with Parker over the years, with ownership changes, factories closing, etc. Maybe the ink stayed the same, but I'm guessing--and only guessing--that the formulation wouldn't be the same now as it was when Parker was an independent company.

Thanks for commenting, I understand your reasoning.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Traveling a lot with planes would make a perfect excuse to get a vacuum filler

Well, yes.

But I was also somewhat concerned about carrying bottles of ink in my briefcase.

Cartridges seemed an easier way to go.

Re bottled ink, I have used Quink ink, and Shaeffer ink (have had Shaeffer pens, Papermate pens, and Cross pens, in the past, and, more recently, have had pens from Caran d'Ache, and Mont Blanc), and was also given bottles of Mont Blanc ink - as gifts - when my pens were being repaired.

 

[polyphenol]

TWSBI is a good "re-entrant" choice IMHO. I heard before about them not running dry. Enjoy!
Curious to know if handwriting with fountain pen actually helps you in learning ;-)

I think it is helping. Makes me think about every character as I write. Somehow, some of the spellings in Welsh which seem odd to those of us who are pretty much English monoglots, seem to stick better. Especially the accenting. And because it is slower, my practice takes longer which is probably a good thing. But without proper trials and there being no possibility of a true comparison, I can't be sure.

 

[polyphenol]

Just out of interest, how was you taught to write using a fountain pen? At my school, we all had to start off writing using a pencil because we was not allowed to use ink based pens until we was taught how to use them and we did that in our English lessons (Literature and Language). The teacher would give us all a fountain pen to use and a bottle of ink. We was shown how to fill the pen with ink and then provide us with lined paper. On the blackboard the teacher had simulated the lines on the paper and using chalk would show how to write letters and words using the full height of the lines. Only certain letters used the full height of the lines such as when writing a capital letter and letters such as p and g and y had to be written so that only a specific amount of the letter was allowed under the line. I am not sure if this was supposed to be how one should write but the teacher used to say that writing words should be one fluid movement, basically the letters being joined up and this was done in a specific way. I love seeing how joined up writing it done, it looks so elegant but it is something I failed at badly at school. No matter how I tried I just could not do it.

Below is an example of lined paper we would use at school in being taught how to use a fountain pen and write letters with it. I can still remember it to this day having to write each letter of the alphabet in capital letters making sure we went from bottom of the line to the top of the line. If the teacher thought it looked messy we was told to stop and try again from the beginning.

View attachment 2354431

I remember using something like the paper in the attached image. Basically, a pair of lines for the body and guide lines above and below for ascenders/descenders, loops, etc.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

My father used fountain pens, and, when I expressed an interest in writing with them, (I was still at school, what Our Transatlantic Cousins refer to as High School), encouraged me, and gave me some of his pens with which to write.

 

[polyphenol]

While I don't remember my very first experience with a fountain pen, I do remember learning handwriting with a slate pencil on a wood framed slate. I'm including a picture, because some of you may be clueless
It looks like an Apple Pencil on an iPad, doesn't it ?

Fast forward to the early Eighties, I joined up with a colleague architect to do some large building projects, and he was heavily into fountain pens. So that's when I picked up the pace again. A Sheaffer Targa was the first one I purchased back then, followed by a Lamy 2000.

View attachment 2354440

Hardly anyone I know used those slates - which I remember from one of my schools. Must have been about 6 at the time.

How very odd, though, that the moment I saw the picture, I remembered exactly where in the school the classroom was, and which way round. Despite it being an awful long time ago!

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

I'm saddened by the news about Lamy.

I've seen pictures online of vintage ink bottles that came with outer case (often Bakelite I'd guess) that could presumably protect the ink bottle when taking it out of the house.

I've never used Quink, but do recognize the name. I must have first heard it in the 1980s from a fountain pen using teacher I had.

A character in an Agatha Christie novel (Hickory Dickory Dock) runs out of ink, and mentions she'll need to buy a bottle of Quink.

I hear positive rumbles about Quink as available/good value. Although I wouldn't buy it as a "classic"--I strongly suspect the Quink of today is different than Parker's heyday.

Modern Quink is different in two ways from 'vintage' Quink (i.e. the bottles I have from the 1980s).
First and most important - there is no Solv-x in modern Quink. The chemical which made this solvent was banned in most countries.
Second, the dye mix is different so the colours of the inks have changed a little (except black, black is black, but although I haven't checked with chromatography, I suspect the mix of dyes that make the black is different now).

 

[WriteNow]

Papermate

It feels strange hearing PaperMate--I associate the name with cheap ballpoints. Most specifically the "Write Bros" line, which was my father used for years.

 

[WriteNow]

How very odd, though, that the moment I saw the picture, I remembered exactly where in the school the classroom was, and which way round. Despite it being an awful long time ago!

I could find the classroom I was in when I was in 1st grade (if the school still existed). But the school layout was pretty simple and I was there for 6 years. Oddly, it would be harder for high school to imagine now how to get to a specific classroom--but I think I could figure out the layout and find my way if I were there.

 

[WriteNow]

chromatography

I think we did a simple chrommatography when I was in some high school science class. It suddenly occurred to me that could have been interesting back in the days when fountain pens were standard--collect samples of, say, different blue inks and do the experiment to see variation between similar inks.

 

[WriteNow]

My father used fountain pens, and, when I expressed an interest in writing with them, (I was still at school, what Our Transatlantic Cousins refer to as High School), encouraged me, and gave me some of his pens with which to write.

I might have told this story before (sorry...), but my father got a fountain pen for his birthday when I was about 11. The thing fascinated me, and so I got a fountain pen on my birthday. My mother also decided to get one. Oddly, though, my parents didn't ever use their pens. My mother said the one she got for herself didn't seem to work well and (as I recall) that the one my father got didn't tolerate his work paper. He wrote a lot, so one would think he might have considered better paper, rather than going on with cheap legal pads and cheap ball points.

 

[polyphenol]

Modern Quink is different in two ways from 'vintage' Quink (i.e. the bottles I have from the 1980s).
First and most important - there is no Solv-x in modern Quink. The chemical which made this solvent was banned in most countries.
Second, the dye mix is different so the colours of the inks have changed a little (except black, black is black, but although I haven't checked with chromatography, I suspect the mix of dyes that make the black is different now).

I think I must have arrived in this world as a cynic and sceptic!

I'd never even considered that Solv-X was anything more than an advertising claim. And certainly not that it might be a real substance that provided genuine benefits.

 

[polyphenol]

I could find the classroom I was in when I was in 1st grade (if the school still existed). But the school layout was pretty simple and I was there for 6 years. Oddly, it would be harder for high school to imagine now how to get to a specific classroom--but I think I could figure out the layout and find my way if I were there.

That school was one I only attended for a few months. And, after replying, I went to Apple Maps and checked out the small town. Where I lived is still there, and there is a school in the same location - but obviously completely rebuilt.

 

[polyphenol]

I think we did a simple chrommatography when I was in some high school science class. It suddenly occurred to me that could have been interesting back in the days when fountain pens were standard--collect samples of, say, different blue inks and do the experiment to see variation between similar inks.

We did ink separation as our introduction to chromatography in chemistry. The only one I remember was black ink which had red and yellow components.

 

[GerritV]

Going through my stationary supplies this afternoon, I stumbled into a New Year's gift I received long ago.
In fact that long, it's a rare vintage object by now (from Bugitron "the collection").
A wooden fountain pen and rollerball in a wooden pencase.
There are a few minor cracks in the wood, but I think I will ink it up anyway.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Going through my stationary supplies this afternoon, I stumbled into a New Year's gift I received long ago.
In fact that long, it's a rare vintage object by now (from Bugitron "the collection").
A wooden fountain pen and rollerball in a wooden pencase.
There are a few minor cracks in the wood, but I think I will ink it up anyway.

View attachment 2355088

Gorgeous.

Well wear.

I look forward to reading about how they write, and what they feel like in the hand (ergonomically), ease of writing, and so on.

 

[GerritV]

I'll be brutally honest: I'm in love with the Asvine P36.
Clearly "inspired by" the Conid Bulkfiller. But at least it's available and affordable (2x unlike Conid).
It gets quite positive reviews on Youtube and Amazon. But... it's made in China.
I kind of have second thoughts about buying something Chinese - anyone else out there?

 

[WriteNow]

I kind of have second thoughts about buying something Chinese - anyone else out there?

This has happened to me.

I have flip flopped for more than 20 years on whether to buy stuff (in general) made in China. At times, I've actively done everything possible to avoid it. At other times, I have a sort of resignation everything seems to be made in China, and why fight it? At other times, I have considered what is the lesser of evils. In the 2000s, for example, I felt a Chinese-made Apple computer was preferable to a PC, since I was very concerned about the Windows market share/monopoly.

One thing that I like about fountain pens is that they are still made around the world...

Every now and then, I hear something or other about some low cost Chinese pen that makes me curious. But in the last year (since I started using fountain pens again), I've bought only one pen that was made in China. It was a Waterman Allure. I think I discovered it was made in China after I got it. For some reason--delusion?--I'd thought it might have come from France when I bought it. If I'd paid more attention at Office Depot that day, I'd probably have gotten the Pilot, instead. Then, I bought some Cross ink cartridges that were made in China (a discovery made me a bit cross)--but I needed ink, fast, and that was the only choice at Office Depot that would work with any of my pens.

 

[GerritV]

This has happened to me.

I have flip flopped for more than 20 years on whether to buy stuff (in general) made in China. At times, I've actively done everything possible to avoid it. At other times, I have a sort of resignation everything seems to be made in China, and why fight it? At other times, I have considered what is the lesser of evils. In the 2000s, for example, I felt a Chinese-made Apple computer was preferable to a PC, since I was very concerned about the Windows market share/monopoly.

One thing that I like about fountain pens is that they are still made around the world...

Every now and then, I hear something or other about some low cost Chinese pen that makes me curious. But in the last year (since I started using fountain pens again), I've bought only one pen that was made in China. It was a Waterman Allure. I think I discovered it was made in China after I got it. For some reason--delusion?--I'd thought it might have come from France when I bought it. If I'd paid more attention at Office Depot that day, I'd probably have gotten the Pilot, instead. Then, I bought some Cross ink cartridges that were made in China (a discovery made me a bit cross)--but I needed ink, fast, and that was the only choice at Office Depot that would work with any of my pens.

Thanks, good to know I'm not the only one "flip flopping".
At times I feel reluctant to support the Chinese industry, while moments later I can't help but thinking of all the household suppliances around us that may have been made in China - often times without us realizing it.

Anyway, I'm looking for a EDC pen that I can take outside to sketch. So far, this Asvine P36 and the TWSBI Diamond 580 are the ones on my radar. Choices...

One more thing: are you satisfied with the Waterman Allure build quality and writing experience?

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

There is nothing wrong with Chinese pens in general. If you want something that is high quality (higher than many entry level 'Western' pens), but different in design and colours, then look at the PenBBS range.

As for the old myth of 'copying' designs, then MontBlanc copied the designs of Sheaffer pens and Parker copied elements of early model Waterman pens.

There are several types of IP (Intellectual Property) protection. The three of interest here are Design, Patent and Copyright.

Design refers to the shape of something (like the iconic Lamy Safari). It only lasts 20 years, and cannot be renewed. Consequently a week or so after the Lamy Safari design expired there were a whole heap of cheap imitations that were perfectly legal.

Patent refers to a novel invention, such as a new way of filling a pen, such as a lever fill, crescent fill, converter, piston, vacuum, etc. Patents can be licensed to other entities and can be used by them, but patents also expire, and can then be used by anybody without restriction or cost. Such is the patent for the Pilot Vacuum Filler mechanism and the Mont Blanc screw-in converter.

Copyright refers to a design feature such as a snowflake or arrowhead clip. These stay valid while you pay the fee. Mont Blanc continually keeps the snowflake copyright active, but Parker have given up on the arrowhead clip. You can't use the snowflake without getting into trouble but you can make an arrowhead clip.

There are only so many ways to make a pen, with only a limited number of shapes. Of the several dozen pens I have, only a handful (Parker 5, 51, 75 and 100, Lamy Safari and 2000, PenBBS 323) have elements of originality. Only the Lamy Safari and PenBBS 323 are truly unique, not borrowing elements from previous designs.

I have never had to throw out a Chinese pen because of low quality, but I have disposed of a Skynn 'ergonomic' fountain pen that simply had no intention of ever writing.

I have also thrown out a Parker that was made in India but was also so dreadful I couldn't use it. However, one of my best pens is a hand-made pen from India.

Some of the older, vintage, Chinese pens are a bit dodgy as far as quality, but I have not had any problems with any of the current Jinhao, Kaigelu, Crocodile or Wing Sung pens that I have.

The current Jinhao 82, X350, X850, X159, 9019, Wing Sung 699 (Vacuum Filler and Piston Filler) and Wing Sung 630 (large piston filler) are all excellent pens and well worth your money. I have also heard good things about the Mahjong P136 but I haven't got one yet.

 

[GerritV]

There is nothing wrong with Chinese pens in general. If you want something that is high quality (higher than many entry level 'Western' pens), but different in design and colours, then look at the PenBBS range.

As for the old myth of 'copying' designs, then MontBlanc copied the designs of Sheaffer pens and Parker copied elements of early model Waterman pens.

There are several types of IP (Intellectual Property) protection. The three of interest here are Design, Patent and Copyright.

Design refers to the shape of something (like the iconic Lamy Safari). It only lasts 20 years, and cannot be renewed. Consequently a week or so after the Lamy Safari design expired there were a whole heap of cheap imitations that were perfectly legal.

Patent refers to a novel invention, such as a new way of filling a pen, such as a lever fill, crescent fill, converter, piston, vacuum, etc. Patents can be licensed to other entities and can be used by them, but patents also expire, and can then be used by anybody without restriction or cost. Such is the patent for the Pilot Vacuum Filler mechanism and the Mont Blanc screw-in converter.

Copyright refers to a design feature such as a snowflake or arrowhead clip. These stay valid while you pay the fee. Mont Blanc continually keeps the snowflake copyright active, but Parker have given up on the arrowhead clip. You can't use the snowflake without getting into trouble but you can make an arrowhead clip.

There are only so many ways to make a pen, with only a limited number of shapes. Of the several dozen pens I have, only a handful (Parker 5, 51, 75 and 100, Lamy Safari and 2000, PenBBS 323) have elements of originality. Only the Lamy Safari and PenBBS 323 are truly unique, not borrowing elements from previous designs.

I have never had to throw out a Chinese pen because of low quality, but I have disposed of a Skynn 'ergonomic' fountain pen that simply had no intention of ever writing.

I have also thrown out a Parker that was made in India but was also so dreadful I couldn't use it. However, one of my best pens is a hand-made pen from India.

Some of the older, vintage, Chinese pens are a bit dodgy as far as quality, but I have not had any problems with any of the current Jinhao, Kaigelu, Crocodile or Wing Sung pens that I have.

The current Jinhao 82, X350, X850, X159, 9019, Wing Sung 699 (Vacuum Filler and Piston Filler) and Wing Sung 630 (large piston filler) are all excellent pens and well worth your money. I have also heard good things about the Mahjong P136 but I haven't got one yet.

Thanks for throwing in the IP types. But aside that, many of the pens you've come to mention are knock-offs - design wise. And I won't deny having problems with that.

 

[WriteNow]

One more thing: are you satisfied with the Waterman Allure build quality and writing experience?

I have no complaints of the build quality. The writing experience is acceptable, but I think it's outclassed by my Pilot Kakuno, which also cost less. Although the Allure does look and feel (apart from writing) nicer. Although that same Kakuno nib quality is available in Pilot Metropolitans, which are (to me) as nice on the surface as the Allure.