Game of Thrones (HBO)

[Roller]

Yeah, 10 episodes then almost a year off ? Aggghhhh!!!!!

Yeah, very different than the way TV was when I was growing up and only had network programming to watch. We had two seasons: the main one, with a new episode each week (with breaks for holidays and such), and the summer "rerun" season with occasional filler programs tossed in. These days, with cable channels, you have to spread several series over the course of a year. But at least that's easier to do with streaming and DVRs. Back in the old days before VCRs, if you missed a show, you might not get another opportunity for awhile.

 

[mscriv]

Okay, I gotta say, I'm pretty frustrated/disappointed with the season 5 finale. I haven't read the books so my opinion is purely as a TV consumer of the story.

Spoiler: My thoughts at this point...

First off, the whole Stannis plotline just seemed so rushed. They have spent a lot of time building up his part of the story and in the span of 3 quick scenes (army and priestess abandon him, Bolton army attacks, Brienne's revenge) they close that whole storyline out. It just felt so "let's hurry up and end this" to me. I'm not unhappy with what happened, just how they chose to present it in the show.

The Melisandre thing makes no sense to me and goes completely against how they have presented her character. She has been the "true believer" who will hold Stannis to her vision from the "fire god" no matter what the cost. Her faith has always been stronger than reason, logic, and circumstance. Leaving him after the troops makes no sense to me. It would be more plausible for her to abandon him during the battle in a crisis of faith and in accordance with the realization that all is lost. But, for her to leave prior to that seems so inconsistent to me.

The Jon Snow thing is completely stupid! They have thoroughly explained why his enemies in the watch want him removed from power, but that they would choose to take action at this point in time makes absolutely no sense. He and other brothers in the watch have just barely escaped the White Walker army and the news they have brought back with them validates the reality of the threat. No matter how much you may hate him and the choices he has made, the overarching fact remains, he has been proven right regarding the truth of the coming White Walker army. Any rational and reasonable person in this situation would put their differences aside in the moment to focus on the bigger issue at hand. The fact that the author took this route is just complete nonsense to me. With that being said, maybe the books better explained this aspect of the story, but the way it was presented in the show makes no sense to me.

 

[Huntn]

This is the problem, 10 shows per season which feel like an outline compared to rich tapestry of the novels. No proper buildup, whammo. Very strong feeling that the show is short changing the story. Although I've not read it yet, Stannis's part was completely underwhelming and unworthy of the grandeur of this story. What's a bit funny, I'm into book 5 Dance of Dragons and I'm reading about stuff (Bran) which I think I saw a couple of seasons ago.

I'm thinking this is the first case in history where an unfinished series is outpaced by the television adaption and altered so significantly. I won't quit on the books because that is what I consider to be the true story. However I'm considering reading the books first when they are released, before I return to the show. I wonder how many people who are reading the books, will stop reading?

 

[Roller]

Okay, I gotta say, I'm pretty frustrated/disappointed with the season 5 finale. I haven't read the books so my opinion is purely as a TV consumer of the story.

Spoiler: My thoughts at this point...

First off, the whole Stannis plotline just seemed so rushed. They have spent a lot of time building up his part of the story and in the span of 3 quick scenes (army and priestess abandon him, Bolton army attacks, Brienne's revenge) they close that whole storyline out. It just felt so "let's hurry up and end this" to me. I'm not unhappy with what happened, just how they chose to present it in the show.

The Melisandre thing makes no sense to me and goes completely against how they have presented her character. She has been the "true believer" who will hold Stannis to her vision from the "fire god" no matter what the cost. Her faith has always been stronger than reason, logic, and circumstance. Leaving him after the troops makes no sense to me. It would be more plausible for her to abandon him during the battle in a crisis of faith and in accordance with the realization that all is lost. But, for her to leave prior to that seems so inconsistent to me.

The Jon Snow thing is completely stupid! They have thoroughly explained why his enemies in the watch want him removed from power, but that they would choose to take action at this point in time makes absolutely no sense. He and other brothers in the watch have just barely escaped the White Walker army and the news they have brought back with them validates the reality of the threat. No matter how much you may hate him and the choices he has made, the overarching fact remains, he has been proven right regarding the truth of the coming White Walker army. Any rational and reasonable person in this situation would put their differences aside in the moment to focus on the bigger issue at hand. The fact that the author took this route is just complete nonsense to me. With that being said, maybe the books better explained this aspect of the story, but the way it was presented in the show makes no sense to me.

It's hard to argue with any of your points, but here's my take from the perspective of a non-book reader in a family of book readers and as one who checks out some of the GoT sites online:

Spoiler

I don't know that we're done with Stannis. We didn't actually see Brienne's sword do him in. And even if he's dead, Melisandre may still have some tricks up her red sleeve. It didn't seem so out of character to me for her to leave, either. I think that she has plans for Jon dead or alive, since the connection was hinted at in her brief scene with him a few weeks back. As much as I recoiled at Melisandre using the "You know nothing Jon Snow" line as she exited the room, how could she have known that Ygritte had said that to him without some supernatural power? And we also know that she's capable of birthing smoke creatures who can do her bidding. The question is whether she sees Jon as Stannis' rival for the Iron Throne, or as someone who has a stronger claim to it.

As for Jon's execution by his comrades, I wasn't at all surprised. In part, that was because I'd heard that it happens in the book. But it was obvious to me that a mutiny was brewing at Castle Black, especially with the looks that Olly had been giving Jon recently. And that bunch never seemed much for logical arguments, regardless of the evidence. Just like many of the Wildlings at Hardhome weren't convinced by Jon and Tormund, most of the Night's Watch people probably didn't buy into the threat and were looking to get back at Jon for allying with the Free Folk.

Of course, I could be completely off base on any of this, but that's what's so much fun about GoT. At least it gives us something to do during the summer, fall, and winter until the series resumes.

 

[mscriv]

It's hard to argue with any of your points, but here's my take from the perspective of a non-book reader in a family of book readers and as one who checks out some of the GoT sites online:

Spoiler

I don't know that we're done with Stannis. We didn't actually see Brienne's sword do him in. And even if he's dead, Melisandre may still have some tricks up her red sleeve. It didn't seem so out of character to me for her to leave, either. I think that she has plans for Jon dead or alive, since the connection was hinted at in her brief scene with him a few weeks back. As much as I recoiled at Melisandre using the "You know nothing Jon Snow" line as she exited the room, how could she have known that Ygritte had said that to him without some supernatural power? And we also know that she's capable of birthing smoke creatures who can do her bidding. The question is whether she sees Jon as Stannis' rival for the Iron Throne, or as someone who has a stronger claim to it.

As for Jon's execution by his comrades, I wasn't at all surprised. In part, that was because I'd heard that it happens in the book. But it was obvious to me that a mutiny was brewing at Castle Black, especially with the looks that Olly had been giving Jon recently. And that bunch never seemed much for logical arguments, regardless of the evidence. Just like many of the Wildlings at Hardhome weren't convinced by Jon and Tormund, most of the Night's Watch people probably didn't buy into the threat and were looking to get back at Jon for allying with the Free Folk.

Of course, I could be completely off base on any of this, but that's what's so much fun about GoT. At least it gives us something to do during the summer, fall, and winter until the series resumes.

Thanks for the response and the comments. What you say is certainly plausible as anything can happen in a fantasy story. And, for sure, there will be lots of speculation over the next 10 months.

 

[vrDrew]

For once I find myself in agreement with Hitler. (The inevitable Downfall remake, showing Adolf reacting to news of GoT's season 5 finale.)

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that Game of Thrones just doesn't work as a work of narrative fiction. That George R.R. Martin's grasp exceeds his reach as a storyteller. He has the ability to create this fascinating fictional universe, filled with rich, compelling characters, landscapes, rituals, etc. But he doesn't have the storytelling chops to put it all together in a cohesive tale that is in any sense of the word satisfying.

Game of Thrones is, and probably was from the beginning, television for masochists. Lost, on a bigger budget, and with better actors. And we've spent five years investing in a story that has disappeared up its own rear end.

 

[obeygiant]

For once I find myself in agreement with Hitler. (The inevitable Downfall remake, showing Adolf reacting to news of GoT's season 5 finale.)

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that Game of Thrones just doesn't work as a work of narrative fiction. That George R.R. Martin's grasp exceeds his reach as a storyteller. He has the ability to create this fascinating fictional universe, filled with rich, compelling characters, landscapes, rituals, etc. But he doesn't have the storytelling chops to put it all together in a cohesive tale that is in any sense of the word satisfying.

Game of Thrones is, and probably was from the beginning, television for masochists. Lost, on a bigger budget, and with better actors. And we've spent five years investing in a story that has disappeared up its own rear end.

Pretty good way to sum it up. Although I'll still watch..

 

[zmunkz]

For once I find myself in agreement with Hitler. (The inevitable Downfall remake, showing Adolf reacting to news of GoT's season 5 finale.)

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that Game of Thrones just doesn't work as a work of narrative fiction. That George R.R. Martin's grasp exceeds his reach as a storyteller. He has the ability to create this fascinating fictional universe, filled with rich, compelling characters, landscapes, rituals, etc. But he doesn't have the storytelling chops to put it all together in a cohesive tale that is in any sense of the word satisfying.

Game of Thrones is, and probably was from the beginning, television for masochists. Lost, on a bigger budget, and with better actors. And we've spent five years investing in a story that has disappeared up its own rear end.

I disagree, I think it is too early to draw these conclusions. We know as the different story arcs approach the final convergence, several of the branches need to just die. This happened earliest with the Starks, and now the Baratheons. I do not think every branch needs some large multi-leveled conclusion... it is just moves and losses in the game of thrones. The important story arc will be the Targarian line, Jon Snow

Spoiler: jon snow online theory

Assuming, as most people do, that either something relating to his so-far not fully realized Warg capabilities, or else the red lady's blood magic, will bring him back to life

, and the white walkers. Everyone else needs to fall off the board one way or another.

 

[vrDrew]

I disagree, I think it is too early to draw these conclusions. We know as the different story arcs approach the final convergence, several of the branches need to just die. .

So after five, six, seven years of watching its going to come down to

Spoiler

Dragon Girl versus Ice Zombies?

Thanks - but if I'd known that, I'd have stayed on the sidelines.

The problems with GoT are manifest. Its not just the deaths of beloved characters and that things don't end the way you think they should. I get that, tragedies get that. Hector dies in the last reel of the Trojan War; and Rhett Butler walks out on Scarlett O'Hara.

Its just that the story is a vast quivering mass of places; people; creatures; and scattered snippets of a story. And none of them seems to get anything like a satisfactory story arc. The whole show is like a huge buffet table, groaning with hundreds of tempting and tasty little morsels. Every episode they keep putting a few more on the table. But there is never enough of any one item to get a satisfactory taste. The waiters keep yanking things off the table, never to be seen again. And by the time you are ready for dessert and the meal to be over; all thats left are the weird bits only the nerdy kids like.

Look at Dorne. This season we encounter the Sand Snakes. But after ten episodes of jerking us one way and another, we discover that their only purpose was to kill off one of Cersei's children I'd pretty much forgotten even existed.

 

[Roller]

So after five, six, seven years of watching its going to come down to

Spoiler

Dragon Girl versus Ice Zombies?

Thanks - but if I'd known that, I'd have stayed on the sidelines.

The problems with GoT are manifest. Its not just the deaths of beloved characters and that things don't end the way you think they should. I get that, tragedies get that. Hector dies in the last reel of the Trojan War; and Rhett Butler walks out on Scarlett O'Hara.

Its just that the story is a vast quivering mass of places; people; creatures; and scattered snippets of a story. And none of them seems to get anything like a satisfactory story arc. The whole show is like a huge buffet table, groaning with hundreds of tempting and tasty little morsels. Every episode they keep putting a few more on the table. But there is never enough of any one item to get a satisfactory taste. The waiters keep yanking things off the table, never to be seen again. And by the time you are ready for dessert and the meal to be over; all thats left are the weird bits only the nerdy kids like.

Look at Dorne. This season we encounter the Sand Snakes. But after ten episodes of jerking us one way and another, we discover that their only purpose was to kill off one of Cersei's children I'd pretty much forgotten even existed.

I agree that GoT's many story lines make it impossible to adequately deal with each one in 50-something minutes a week for 10 weeks, and that's with some characters absent for an entire season. So we get a taste of what's going on in selected arcs on every program, and it's up to us viewers to keep track of their complex interrelationships. Despite this, I still enjoy GoT, though it feels different than it once did. Prior to season 5, I watched the first 40 episodes in about two weeks, so they felt more connected and part of a cohesive whole.

I also concur about the Dorne story this year, which often felt like a waste of time. I expected much more mayhem from the Sand Snakes, who I now find annoying.

 

[Huntn]

So after five, six, seven years of watching its going to come down to

Spoiler

Dragon Girl versus Ice Zombies?

Thanks - but if I'd known that, I'd have stayed on the sidelines.

The problems with GoT are manifest. Its not just the deaths of beloved characters and that things don't end the way you think they should. I get that, tragedies get that. Hector dies in the last reel of the Trojan War; and Rhett Butler walks out on Scarlett O'Hara.

Its just that the story is a vast quivering mass of places; people; creatures; and scattered snippets of a story. And none of them seems to get anything like a satisfactory story arc. The whole show is like a huge buffet table, groaning with hundreds of tempting and tasty little morsels. Every episode they keep putting a few more on the table. But there is never enough of any one item to get a satisfactory taste. The waiters keep yanking things off the table, never to be seen again. And by the time you are ready for dessert and the meal to be over; all thats left are the weird bits only the nerdy kids like.

Look at Dorne. This season we encounter the Sand Snakes. But after ten episodes of jerking us one way and another, we discover that their only purpose was to kill off one of Cersei's children I'd pretty much forgotten even existed.

If it turns into your spoiler, I have no problem with that. Someone has to win the Game of Thrones! But if the author is as good at slight of hand as he has been, this is by no means certain.
Still...

Imo, you have to read the books. It has become apparent that HBO format is inadequate to tell this story satisfactorily. I'm tempted to use the word "pitiful". Way back when, I was impressed how the first season of GoT was so true to the the first book, but since then they should have devoted at least two seasons per book, or maybe even three. Instead we have painfully inadequate short seasons. I first felt it in Season 2 as compared to Clash of Kings and complained back then it felt short and chopped. Do you remember the good ole days (in general) when a season had 30 episodes? This season has been the worst from the incompetent Cliff Notes standpoint. It's watching an outline with the facts jumbled or missing. It's possible up to now that for anyone not reading the book, it was great. In fact having read the books up to book 4, I thought it was good, good enough, but the way two of the story arcs were abruptly knifed in this season's finale was a trajedy.

Spoiler

What was this about Jon Snow being hated, because Nightwatch Brothers died helping Wildlings? I assume this was Jon's visit to the Wildlings village when the White Walker attack occurs. As far as I know, this event never took place in the book. It appears to be a shortcut in the HBO telling.

Jon has always had his antagonist Slynt and his clique, but the show failed to adequately show the dynamics of this event. It seemed to come out of the blue. And yeah there is this speculation online, he is still alive or with us in some fashion that remains to be seen.

And I've been told by my wife that since Stannis never burned his kid, this is another shortcut to tidy up the story, causing half his army to leave. But then they devote 1 minute to a battle using a long camera shot showing the Bolton's superior forces converging on his to represent the end of his quest to be the King of the Seven Kingdoms? Remember back to the Battle of Blacwater Bay. At least we had some dynamics there.

This in comparison was an embarrassment. And Sand Snakes- I won't even go there! The HBO producers should fall on their swords!

 

[AlliFlowers]

My son recently suggested we have a new crossover event: GoT meets TWD. In the final episode, we fully expected Danerys to fly her dragon into Atlanta to meet Rick.

 

[Huntn]

I started a thread devoted to the books so those not reading will no longer have to endure specific book comments.

A Song of Fire and Ice Thread

 

[Huntn]

My son recently suggested we have a new crossover event: GoT meets TWD. In the final episode, we fully expected Danerys to fly her dragon into Atlanta to meet Rick.

Room temperature vs frigid walkers, I assume they both roast as well.

 

[vrDrew]

I was so frustrated by the last episode, that I set my self the (somewhat masochistic) task of re-watching the entire first five seasons. Because I'm quite certain there was a lot I missed or forgot the first time through.

Quite interesting to watch it anew. I hadn't quite twigged - the first time - to the fact that Jon Snow's Lord Commander of the Night Watch was the father of Ser Jorah who was hanging out with Danny Targarian. I'd forgotten a lot of the backstory that led to Theon Greyjoy's disastrous capture of Winterfell. And I'd been completely oblivious to the existence of recurring minor character Hot Pie.

I'm only partway through. And obviously the episodes from the last couple of seasons are fresher in my mind. But I'll be intrigued to see what I pick up the second time around.

Maybe it will start to make more sense.

 

[Huntn]

I was so frustrated by the last episode, that I set my self the (somewhat masochistic) task of re-watching the entire first five seasons. Because I'm quite certain there was a lot I missed or forgot the first time through.

Quite interesting to watch it anew. I hadn't quite twigged - the first time - to the fact that Jon Snow's Lord Commander of the Night Watch was the father of Ser Jorah who was hanging out with Danny Targarian. I'd forgotten a lot of the backstory that led to Theon Greyjoy's disastrous capture of Winterfell. And I'd been completely oblivious to the existence of recurring minor character Hot Pie.

I'm only partway through. And obviously the episodes from the last couple of seasons are fresher in my mind. But I'll be intrigued to see what I pick up the second time around.

Maybe it will start to make more sense.

Ayra beats him up. Seems like such a long time ago, back when you could trust the show.

 

[JoshMKB24]

Overall I'd say season 5 for me was the least enjoyable, but thats not to say I didn't enjoy it. I think that there wasn't any surprise this season. Even though obviously I knew what was happening in prior seasons, this season didn't really do anything to surprise me, and its ironic because this is the season they really ventured away from the books and blazed new trails so to speak. I just found the 1st half of the season to be really long and drawn out, I really enjoyed the last 4 episodes or so. I also didn't mind the whole Sansa rape thing, as in I didn't get bent out of shape like it seemed a lot of people did. I just think overall this season didn't really leave me feeling like "holy crap" season 6 will be really interesting I think, and it will also be interesting if they really do release The Winds of Winter before season 6 debuts.

 

[vrDrew]

A few epic binge-watching sessions behind me, and I'm within sight of Season Five.

On the positive side, I think that with the benefit of hindsight, there were a lot more clues leading up to some of the more shocking and violent events than I had originally thought.

And I think I've also decided that Robb Stark was perhaps the dumbest military strategist I've ever come across. Did it really not occur to him to leave a hundred or so guys back at Winterfell to look after his brothers and the family home?

On the bigger picture: I'm wondering if Game of Thrones is really too big a story, and presented in such a manner, as to be incomprehensible for most TV viewers. And I don't mean that in a patronizing way.

Der Ring des Nibelungen is a massive series of four epic German operas. But you can get through it in about fifteen hours over four nights. War & Peace is a massive epic piece of Russian literature: Roughly 1200 pages, that a dedicated reader work his way through over a week or so.

But HBO's Game of Thrones is a different animal altogether. You get ten roughly one hour episodes, separated by nine or ten month gaps. You are introduced to a cast of characters numbering into the hundreds, along with a geography and history that is totally alien to most viewers.

It probably is watchable. But it demands a level of dedication and attention I think most people are lacking.

 

[JoshMKB24]

A few epic binge-watching sessions behind me, and I'm within sight of Season Five.

On the positive side, I think that with the benefit of hindsight, there were a lot more clues leading up to some of the more shocking and violent events than I had originally thought.

And I think I've also decided that Robb Stark was perhaps the dumbest military strategist I've ever come across. Did it really not occur to him to leave a hundred or so guys back at Winterfell to look after his brothers and the family home?

On the bigger picture: I'm wondering if Game of Thrones is really too big a story, and presented in such a manner, as to be incomprehensible for most TV viewers. And I don't mean that in a patronizing way.

Der Ring des Nibelungen is a massive series of four epic German operas. But you can get through it in about fifteen hours over four nights. War & Peace is a massive epic piece of Russian literature: Roughly 1200 pages, that a dedicated reader work his way through over a week or so.

But HBO's Game of Thrones is a different animal altogether. You get ten roughly one hour episodes, separated by nine or ten month gaps. You are introduced to a cast of characters numbering into the hundreds, along with a geography and history that is totally alien to most viewers.

It probably is watchable. But it demands a level of dedication and attention I think most people are lacking.

I would probably agree with that to some degree. I also have gone back and watched some of the earlier seasons and there is a lot of stuff you don't catch the 1st time around. I will say though, most shows you don't really need to pay that close attention to, so a lot of the details go unnoticed, because you just don't know they're necessary and you're trying as hard as you can to figure out who everyone is. I went into the show knowing what was going to happen and there still was stuff I missed from the show and had forgotten from the text that led up to the events of where we are at now

 

[vrDrew]

I went into the show knowing what was going to happen and there still was stuff I missed from the show and had forgotten from the text that led up to the events of where we are at now

Which brings us to the a juncture I see as being problematical. Because my understanding is that George RR Martin hasn't finished his next book in the series. And while there have been some changes from the books, the larger story seems to be moving in parallel with the TV show.

And I'm not totally convinced Martin, or the HBO series producers, are quite sure how its going to end.

Both Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark have had visions of the throne room at Kings Landing in ruins, with the floor covered in snow. I think thats a pretty strong clue as to where things will end up. But how things get to that point?

Overall, on re-watching the series, I'm continually impressed with the overall quality of the show: Costumes; actors - both character and lead; dialog; sets; locations. The CGI work is, at least on my hi-def TV set - pretty much flawless. The only thing the producers (or George RR Martin) seem to have gotten wrong is they don't appear to understand quite how sailing ships work. The ships on GoT seem to move through the water free of the vagaries of wind and tide. And I cannot imagine trying to navigate the harbor mouth of Braavos with any wind that wasn't coming from exactly the right direction. It would have been far more practical to use oar-driven galleys - but apparently Westerosian - or Essorian - technology hasn't figured that out yet.

I guess my biggest single complaint is this: I personally would prefer it if the story was decided by "conventional" means. Swords, battles, armies; knights; treachery; alliances; poison; and spies. But its looking more and more as if the factors that will decide the fate of the Seven Kingdoms will be "magical" ones: the zombie-like White Walkers; Danny's Dragons; Melisandre's Blood Magic; or Bran Stark's weird schtick.

Final thoughts: Who was the most evil person in GoT: Joffrey Baratheon, or Ramsey Bolton née Snow? Its a tough call, but I'm giving the Golden Chalice to Ramsay. Joffrey, as the child of incest at least has something of an excuse. But Ramsay is just one nasty piece of work.

 

[jaw04005]

You have to remember that the characters are much younger in the novels. George RR Martin has been waiting for some of them to grow up in order to proceed with the rest of the story.

The actors in the television series are much older. For example, John Snow starts out at like 14 in the books, Arya is 9, Sansa is 11, Bran is 7, etc.

He initially was going to jump time, but decided against it.

That's why the fourth and fifth books were filled with a lot of filler and back story. Whereas, the first three books were more exciting.

At this point in the TV series, it appears to me they are actually giving Martin time to finish the Winds of Winter so he gets to announce what's next.

I have a few squabbles with season five including the Sansa rape, Dourne and the Dournish characters, the mountain, but overall I felt they took two bloated books and created one fairly good television season out of it.

Some of the changes were positive in my opinion including having John Snow go to Hardhome and having Tyrion go with Jorah.

 

[Roller]

Which brings us to the a juncture I see as being problematical. Because my understanding is that George RR Martin hasn't finished his next book in the series. And while there have been some changes from the books, the larger story seems to be moving in parallel with the TV show.

And I'm not totally convinced Martin, or the HBO series producers, are quite sure how its going to end.

Both Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark have had visions of the throne room at Kings Landing in ruins, with the floor covered in snow. I think thats a pretty strong clue as to where things will end up. But how things get to that point?

Overall, on re-watching the series, I'm continually impressed with the overall quality of the show: Costumes; actors - both character and lead; dialog; sets; locations. The CGI work is, at least on my hi-def TV set - pretty much flawless. The only thing the producers (or George RR Martin) seem to have gotten wrong is they don't appear to understand quite how sailing ships work. The ships on GoT seem to move through the water free of the vagaries of wind and tide. And I cannot imagine trying to navigate the harbor mouth of Braavos with any wind that wasn't coming from exactly the right direction. It would have been far more practical to use oar-driven galleys - but apparently Westerosian - or Essorian - technology hasn't figured that out yet.

I guess my biggest single complaint is this: I personally would prefer it if the story was decided by "conventional" means. Swords, battles, armies; knights; treachery; alliances; poison; and spies. But its looking more and more as if the factors that will decide the fate of the Seven Kingdoms will be "magical" ones: the zombie-like White Walkers; Danny's Dragons; Melisandre's Blood Magic; or Bran Stark's weird schtick.

Final thoughts: Who was the most evil person in GoT: Joffrey Baratheon, or Ramsey Bolton née Snow? Its a tough call, but I'm giving the Golden Chalice to Ramsay. Joffrey, as the child of incest at least has something of an excuse. But Ramsay is just one nasty piece of work.

I've read that GRRM has shared his vision of how the books will end with Benioff and Weiss, but he can always change his mind. It would be interesting to know the nature of the contractual arrangement between Martin and HBO (or whomever the contract is with). I doubt if the show runners require Martin's approval for plot changes.

I agree with you about the magical elements in the story - they make it too easy to circumvent major hurdles. So, for example, Melisandre could have conjured up a demon to destroy the much larger army that Stannis faced. But magic is part of the story, like it or not.

I also agree about who's most evil. Bolton is just a horrible character, and his evilness is enhanced by actor who plays him.

 

[Huntn]

A few epic binge-watching sessions behind me, and I'm within sight of Season Five.

On the positive side, I think that with the benefit of hindsight, there were a lot more clues leading up to some of the more shocking and violent events than I had originally thought.

And I think I've also decided that Robb Stark was perhaps the dumbest military strategist I've ever come across. Did it really not occur to him to leave a hundred or so guys back at Winterfell to look after his brothers and the family home?

On the bigger picture: I'm wondering if Game of Thrones is really too big a story, and presented in such a manner, as to be incomprehensible for most TV viewers. And I don't mean that in a patronizing way.

Der Ring des Nibelungen is a massive series of four epic German operas. But you can get through it in about fifteen hours over four nights. War & Peace is a massive epic piece of Russian literature: Roughly 1200 pages, that a dedicated reader work his way through over a week or so.

But HBO's Game of Thrones is a different animal altogether. You get ten roughly one hour episodes, separated by nine or ten month gaps. You are introduced to a cast of characters numbering into the hundreds, along with a geography and history that is totally alien to most viewers.

It probably is watchable. But it demands a level of dedication and attention I think most people are lacking.

I'll confirm HBO show is watchable, but since Season 2 has become severely short changed and corrupted version of the richness found in the books.

 

[Huntn]

I've read that GRRM has shared his vision of how the books will end with Benioff and Weiss, but he can always change his mind. It would be interesting to know the nature of the contractual arrangement between Martin and HBO (or whomever the contract is with). I doubt if the show runners require Martin's approval for plot changes.

I agree with you about the magical elements in the story - they make it too easy to circumvent major hurdles. So, for example, Melisandre could have conjured up a demon to destroy the much larger army that Stannis faced. But magic is part of the story, like it or not.

I also agree about who's most evil. Bolton is just a horrible character, and his evilness is enhanced by actor who plays him.

That may be beyond her abilities. Regarding Bolton, he's the kind of monster villain that can make a story riveting, and the reader crave for his blood to be spilled or some other horrible ending for him.

 

[ritmomundo]

Which brings us to the a juncture I see as being problematical. Because my understanding is that George RR Martin hasn't finished his next book in the series. And while there have been some changes from the books, the larger story seems to be moving in parallel with the TV show.

I've noticed many people feel the series is up in the air now because the show has caught up to the books. But just to clarify, it has caught up to the published books. I think it's safe to say that GRRM would have completed a least a major portion of the next book over the past, what.. 4-5 years? And it's probably also safe to say that he has given/will give enough of that story to D&D to create the next season, at least.