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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
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Here's Linus's response. He posted it in a thread that was created in his forums: Linky

I don't belong to that forum, but its a massive thread, with 101 pages. I'm not really familiar with that forum, so I can't say how it is, toxic, or uplifting, or helpful - no idea. But as I scan through the thread, there seems to be more people calling Linus out then defending him.

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip. I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient.

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

Thanks for reading this.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,139
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We honestly do not deserve Gamer Nexus. They're the gold standard of independent testing. Their tests found so many defects with different parts, defects that warranted recalls, such as the NZXT case that caught fire


Or the exploding Gigabyte power supplies (A moment of silence for that RTX 3090 the PSU killed. We will never forget your sacrifice in the name of science. 🫡)




The Billet Labs fiasco is the reason I unsubbed from all their channels (except Mac Address. That's their only channel that doesn't rush, which is why their vids always have such high production quality and are a joy to watch.)



LMG shove videos out as fast as possible since sponsor spots are the bulk of their revenue. Every video is payday for them regardless how they perform in viewcount. All these bad tests could've been avoided if they just slowed down, but because they just gotta have a new video out ASAP everytime, they don't go back to correct the mistake because as Linus says "I'm not gonna spend another $500 for that employee to test again." (He says as they spent $14,000 on a fully specced M2 Ultra Mac Pro and then another $10,000 on a fully specced M2 Ultra Mac Studio, and spend thousands of dollars on high end CPUs and GPUs everytime, oh but $500 to correct a very important test nooooooo we can't do that.)
They have also purchased broken/defective products from people before!
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,139
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I think the best example of the problems with LMG is their video on the Mac Game Porting Toolkit, a video they admitted they did zero research on and rushed out.


Notice first the video title. "Mac Gaming Sucks.....but that's changing" that long space hiding the second half so they get clicks from the Mac vs PC crowd. Now, in the video they used an M1 Ultra Mac Studio using an outdated build of GPT that ran terribly on Ultra chips, a problem that got fixed. Because of this, several games they tried to run would not launch, and games like Hollow Knight ran terribly. All these are issues no other Youtuber had, since other Youtubers did research. After the video released, Linus admitted they did no research and rushed it out, and despite that, this video is still up. They did not bother to make a correct video using a version of GPT that worked right


And then shortly afterwards, THEY DID IT AGAIN WITH THEIR M2 ULTRA MAC STUDIO TESTS!


I'm starting to see why Apple blacklisted them from coming to events.
Yes. Linus should just stop discussing anything Apple. He obviously hates their style. It will never be to custom PC levels. Linus just like to tinker inside the case. Nothing wrong with it. But that means some products are just not for you when you are that person.

That Game Porting Toolkit video from them is just horrible
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,139
7,112
Here's Linus's response. He posted it in a thread that was created in his forums: Linky

I don't belong to that forum, but its a massive thread, with 101 pages. I'm not really familiar with that forum, so I can't say how it is, toxic, or uplifting, or helpful - no idea. But as I scan through the thread, there seems to be more people calling Linus out then defending him.
I don’t like his statement about Billet Labs. It’s not just about compensation. They need their best prototype back so they can continue. Maybe even continue as a business as a whole.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
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I don’t like his statement about Billet Labs. It’s not just about compensation
He has such a closed mind stating it's not going to matter, his test (even thought it was on a non-compatible card) was so thorough and good that using the right card won't matter. Secondly, he's pissing and moaning about spending about 100 bucks when he doesn't bat an eyelash in dropping 10k on the stupidest things? Its just wrong on all counts
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,139
7,112
He has such a closed mind stating it's not going to matter, his test (even thought it was on a non-compatible card) was so thorough and good that using the right card won't matter. Secondly, he's pissing and moaning about spending about 100 bucks when he doesn't bat an eyelash in dropping 10k on the stupidest things? Its just wrong on all counts
I mean there should be so many checks in place when discussing prototypes. It should be common sense to ANYONE that selling a prototype (a company’s IP) at an auction is a no go. A competitor can buy it.

Unless they had a signed document “You can sell this at an auction”, they should not have done so.
 

Bug-Creator

macrumors 68000
May 30, 2011
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Germany
They need their best prototype back so they can continue. Maybe even continue as a business as a whole.

I don't think thats the case, they send an invoice covering the damage and as far as financials go they are good.
What was and still is the problem is what happened before, the malicious "review" the comments he made on the WAN show and selling/giving it away. I don't think they need it back now.

For contrast look how der8auer handled the Regner case (just as flawed, pointless and overpriced). He did the test, he got the results, he pointed out why the results were bad, he even offered advice how to fix and when he got a 2nd revision he tested it again (with slightly less pointless results).

But for me the issue is that Linus insist Steve should have contacted him about problem Linus has already made clear he has no plan in fixing. Then he claims of "not wanting to go in a snipping match" only to then hint that is Steve who has to change/move to fix their relationship.

The whole piece reads like the usual corporate/politician boilerplate non excuse blaming whom who brought the scandal to light.


Now you can run a tech channel as meme/joke (even if not planned) like Austin Evans where everybody forgets after 3 days (or maybe not) that you don't know use a thermal camera and everything is good.
You can run it sticking to what you know and being clear about what you don't like JaysTwoCents.
Or you run it as journalist/news outlet and have Steve's standard (or better).

Or you just grow, grow and grow with 0 regards to quality.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
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I mean there should be so many checks in place when discussing prototypes. It should be common sense to ANYONE that selling a prototype (a company’s IP) at an auction is a no go. A competitor can buy it.

Unless they had a signed document “You can sell this at an auction”, they should not have done so.
I think they (LMG) generally fly by the seat of their pants, and run the channel like some 20 something year old. To the startup detriment, they the startup failed to cover their behinds with various NDAs, what LTT can and cannot do. Larger more established companies already know these things. I'm not blaming the victim to be sure, but they didn't do themselves any favors.
 
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Ethosik

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Oct 21, 2009
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I don't think thats the case, they send an invoice covering the damage and as far as financials go they are good.
That still doesn’t excuse bad behavior. This situation can completely destroy a company, have their competitor use their prototype and use their IP.

Like I said, it should have been the MOST difficult thing to add to an auction. It’s a prototype. The damages that can occur are almost limitless.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,139
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I think they (LMG) generally fly by the seat of their pants, and run the channel like some 20 something year old. To the startup detriment, they the startup failed to cover their behinds with various NDAs, what LTT can and cannot do. Larger more established companies already know these things. I'm not blaming the victim to be sure, but they didn't do themselves any favors.
That doesn’t excuse bad behavior.
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
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Here's Linus's response. He posted it in a thread that was created in his forums: Linky

I don't belong to that forum, but its a massive thread, with 101 pages. I'm not really familiar with that forum, so I can't say how it is, toxic, or uplifting, or helpful - no idea. But as I scan through the thread, there seems to be more people calling Linus out then defending him.

Well forget everything I said then. Linus is just going all out god damn

And Steve already has a rebuttal.


Once again, we don't deserve you PC Gaming Jesus.

You know watching this downward spiral at LMG I just have The Morning Show's opening intro playing in my head
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,139
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No, I completely agree but its one of those things that I consider CYA.
That’s a slippery slope argument that I don’t want to get into regarding victims and CYA.

Absence of permission doesn’t equal permission. I’ll just say like I said it should have been a signed document to allow the prototype to be auctioned.
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
Here's Linus's response. He posted it in a thread that was created in his forums: Linky

I don't belong to that forum, but its a massive thread, with 101 pages. I'm not really familiar with that forum, so I can't say how it is, toxic, or uplifting, or helpful - no idea. But as I scan through the thread, there seems to be more people calling Linus out then defending him.
Kind of a kop out. LMG is all too fast to post on a daily basis, yet when the spotlight is on them tumbleweed. Again misrepresentation as the Billet Lab monobloc was clearly illustrated that it was auctioned not sold directly.

Not subscribed to the forum as not that interested and far less so now. LMG is big enough to weather the storm and knows how to play YT and guessing that's their plan to brush it under the rug.

There was nothing unprofessional in the video concerned and supported by LMG's own media...

Q-6
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,682
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That’s a slippery slope argument that I don’t want to get into regarding victims and CYA.
I think you're missing my point. If you can avoid a hassle, problem or an issue that someone else created, wouldn't you want to avoid it?

For instance, why driving person A has the right of way, person B, does something stupid that person A could avoid but chooses not too . Yes, person A is in the right but he still got into a fender bender. (this actually happened to me, and yes, I was person A).

Being right and in the clear is not the same thing as having controls or processes to protect yourself.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
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Kind of a kop out
completely.
Not subscribed to the forum
Same, but I just unsubscribed from all of his channels. I'm disgusted and I just feel that other YTs do a better job. @Spaceboi Scaphandre posted a rebuttal from Steve, regarding Linus' response. His words were unhinged to describe Linus' response. Maybe I'll return to LTT in the future but right now I don't see any value in watching his channel.
 

BeatCrazy

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2011
5,106
4,461
I think they (LMG) generally fly by the seat of their pants, and run the channel like some 20 something year old. To the startup detriment, they the startup failed to cover their behinds with various NDAs, what LTT can and cannot do. Larger more established companies already know these things. I'm not blaming the victim to be sure, but they didn't do themselves any favors.
I think the 'new CEO' approach is an attempt to acknowledge and rectify.

I work for a large corporation, and after decades doing such, I've inherently built a mindset about how to approach (and resolve!) situations like this. Linus admittedly doesn't have that same background/perspective and that's why he's dug himself into this hole.

However, I think Steve likes to dig into/at this whole situation and is awkwardly poking his nose in places it really doesn't belong.

I've supported both creators with merch purchases, etc. So I don't really have a 'side' to pick here, I think they both could have taken a better approach.
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
completely.

Same, but I just unsubscribed from all of his channels. I'm disgusted and I just feel that other YTs do a better job. @Spaceboi Scaphandre posted a rebuttal from Steve, regarding Linus' response. His words were unhinged to describe Linus' response. Maybe I'll return to LTT in the future but right now I don't see any value in watching his channel.
Having just watched the update from GNX, unsubscribed. If one of the owners has this attitude LMG will never be a reliable source for technical details...

Q-6
 
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Spaceboi Scaphandre

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Jun 8, 2022
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completely.

Same, but I just unsubscribed from all of his channels. I'm disgusted and I just feel that other YTs do a better job. @Spaceboi Scaphandre posted a rebuttal from Steve, regarding Linus' response. His words were unhinged to describe Linus' response. Maybe I'll return to LTT in the future but right now I don't see any value in watching his channel.

Steve pretty much summed up Linus' response with one word: Gaslighting. They know what they're doing is wrong, admitted it's wrong, but now painting themselves as the victim instead of owning up to it. If they're gonna keep making these errors and leaving them up, I'm not watching.

If I was Billet Labs I'd lawyer up right about now.
 

BeatCrazy

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2011
5,106
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Steve pretty much summed up Linus' response with one word: Gaslighting. They know what they're doing is wrong, admitted it's wrong, but now painting themselves as the victim instead of owning up to it. If they're gonna keep making these errors and leaving them up, I'm not watching.

If I was Billet Labs I'd lawyer up right about now.
Seriously you guys? :rolleyes:

Let's take a couple of steps back. All this content is pure entertainment. You didn't pay for professional test results/comparisons, so let's not treat it like they have some legal responsibilities. And if LTT has lost some credibility, oh well they make their bed and now they have to lie in it.

And regarding the recommendation for Billet... you know how much lawyers cost? Are they supposed to sue LTT? On what grounds?

Talk about a tempest in a teapot, you guys fell right into this trap that Steve has laid out. Note: I'm not defending LTT here.
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,414
8,106
Seriously you guys? :rolleyes:

Let's take a couple of steps back. All this content is pure entertainment. You didn't pay for professional test results/comparisons, so let's not treat it like they have some legal responsibilities. And if LTT has lost some credibility, oh well they make their bed and now they have to lie in it.

I should mention Linus' benchmarks of the original M1 Macs was what made me switch to Mac in the first place. The M1 Mac Mini was my first Mac I ever bought after a lifetime of hating Macs, and if it wasn't for LTT's benchmarks it never would've bought it and would've remained a PC Elitist replying "mac sux lol" at every Apple related thing.

So in a way, YES I am paying for professional test results/comparisons since their tests made me a Mac user to begin with, as well as many others got Macs because of these two videos:

 
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BeatCrazy

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2011
5,106
4,461
I should mention Linus' benchmarks of the original M1 Macs was what made me switch to Mac in the first place. So in a way, YES I am paying for professional test results/comparisons since their tests made me a Mac user to begin with, as well as many others!
Exactly how much did you pay LTT, specifically for that benchmark that led to your purchase decision?
 
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