High Res on AirPods Max when using the lightning cable

[EntropyQ3]

I'm not sure I follow why "the DAC in the AirPods Pro can only convert AAC" would be true. What I have seen previously is that AAC is decompressed first, and the resulting data stream is then fed to the actual DAC. Even if these functions are on the same chip, there is nothing really that precludes piping such a data stream directly to the DAC without going through the preceding AAC decompression stage.
Could someone please explain why that would be the case here?

 

[LeonPro]

When you say "AAC is decompressed first", at what stage are you referring to? As AAC is not decompressed when using wirelessly. It's fed directly to the APM at which point the DAC does its job.

Without any further update, nobody knows the true ability of the APM DAC. How much data stream can it really handle and how much of it is due to Apple limiting it? We know their cables can handle a maximum of 24bit/48kHz, but is this the case with the APM knowing it was created for Bluetooth wireless enjoyment? Or can a future update allow a digital to digital cable connection to allow the DAC to decode Hi-Res Lossless?

What is evident so far is that without an analog jack on the APM, you can never pass Hi-Res Lossless audio in analog form so Apple will have to unlock it digitally, if possible at all.

 

[EntropyQ3]

When you say "AAC is decompressed first", at what stage are you referring to? As AAC is not decompressed when using wirelessly. It's fed directly to the APM at which point the DAC does its job.

When I’ve looked at similar audio chips, they recieve the signal, decode whatever codec is used to an ”uncompressed” format which is then (potentially after additional processing such as EQ, ANC, whatever) fed to the DAC which outputs a signal which is amplified to drive the element.
If you stop to think about it, any headphone that can play back more than one codec (or does any on phone post processing) has to work like that. And as far as I know, the APM can connect to vanilla bluetooth for instance. (Haven’t actually tried it with mine, no Android in my home!)

Which implies that the potential is there to feed the phone with whatever native digital format(s) its DAC can digest.
Whether Apple will ever expose it is another matter.
For the record, I’m an owner and don’t really mind the current state of affairs. My days of purism for the sake of purism are behind me.

 

[LeonPro]

If we're referring to the DAC of the source device (iPhone, iPad, Mac), then yes it can be fed a lossless signal and decode on the fly.

But when you're talking about Bluetooth wireless connection, there is bandwidth limitation which means only compressed digital files are streamed. In the case of the APM - it was designed to only take in AAC or SBC codecs (the reason why Android users will hate the sound quality of the APM if they listen wirelessly).

Whether or not the APM can take a lossless codec, it cannot be done via Bluetooth at its current state.

The only way to do this is to pass it off via wireless ethernet via AirPlay 2. So unless Apple had a hidden wireless chip in there that wasn't already discovered in a teardown, we will all have to wait for an AirPods Max Pro to do this task. This is also the reason why the original HomePod even if its already decommissioned will be capable of taking in lossless files in a future firmware.

 

[bigshot]

He's asking why Apple couldn't just patch the analog signal from the cable directly into the transducers bypassing the bluetooth circuitry completely.

The reason they won't do that is because iPhones don't have headphone outs any more. Only lightning ports. If they made that possible, then you wouldn't be able to play lossless on Apple devices. They want to have a beginning to end chain of control: Apple Music -> iPhone -> AirPod Max. Can you imagine Apple implementing a feature that only works on Android phones? Not likely.

It doesn't matter though because there is no audible difference between lossless and the regular tracks in the Apple Music store. Apple's VP in charge of Apple Music admitted in a review in Billboard recently that they are halfheartedly offering lossless music because people have asked for it, but they aren't interested in implementing it in their products. He said that they've done tests and people can't hear the difference between lossless, HD Audio and AAC 256 VBR. There is absolutely no incentive to expand the data rate for no audible improvement. Instead, Apple is focused on Spatial Audio, because that has the potential for greatly improving sound quality. Spatial Audio requires processing in the iPhone and passes it out through lightning, so that is what they are focused on.

 

[LeonPro]

You're also missing the fact that the APM don't have analog in ports. So even if you can patch an analog signal from the iPhone, you still can't feed that into the APM without converting it back to digital.

So the only solution is as what he is asking - why can't Apple create a lightning to lightning cable from the iPhone to the APM. This is a straight digital connection and should be able to pass Hi-Res Lossless (even) if the APM DAC was capable of decoding it.

 

[bigshot]

The problem is that Apple made that $30 wire look like a wire. If it had a big dongle at one end, it would be clear that it was transcoding.

I'm told that DAC in the APM is specifically designed for Bluetooth codecs. It wouldn't be able to convert lossless if you fed it into it. And I don't thing spatial audio is compatible with lossless either. I don't think there is any way to pass multichannel audio like 5.1 or Atmos from the phone to an AVR. Spatial audio has to be processed in the phone and converted to AAC for output.

But that doesn't really matter at all because there is no audible difference between lossless and lossy. So given the choice of more inconvenience due to a wider bandwidth with no perceptible improvement in sound quality, Apple has chosen the more flexible and convenient route.

I think we're going to see lossy become less popular as time goes by, just like PCM CDs have. The same with blu-ray and DVD video as opposed to M4V. If it looks and sounds the same, who wants to jump through hoops to accommodate it?

 

[ricardomcae]

Hi all! Great post! I’ve been learning a lot!

What do you think of the following scenario:

Via firmware update, Apple lets the AirPods Max support ALAC, and develops a Lightning to Lightning cable?
In that case, no external DAC would be required, and the APM would support lossless music.

Am I right?

In addition, can we say that, via wire connectivity, the APM will never support Apple Music’s Hi-Res Lossless, since they don’t have any analog input?

Thanks in advance!

PS: I’m an APM owner!

 

[bigshot]

As long as the DAC in the APMs support ALAC, but I don't imagine that it does. If it did, they would have implemented that at launch. I don't think Apple is committed to lossless at all because AAC is audibly transparent, compact, streamable and supported across all platforms. There's no incentive to implement a codec like ALAC that can't really do any of those things remotely well.

Lossless is fine for downloads, but it isn't good for streaming. The APMs are streaming headphones. Running them with lossless would be like putting regular gas in a car designed to run on diesel.

 

[EPO75]

As long as the DAC in the APMs support ALAC, but I don't imagine that it does. If it did, they would have implemented that at launch. I don't think Apple is committed to lossless at all because AAC is audibly transparent, compact, streamable and supported across all platforms. There's no incentive to implement a codec like ALAC that can't really do any of those things remotely well.

Lossless is fine for downloads, but it isn't good for streaming. The APMs are streaming headphones. Running them with lossless would be like putting regular gas in a car designed to run on diesel.

Lossless streaming would be fine if they allow to stream through AirPlay2 on the AirPod Max.

 

[bigshot]

Airplay requires wifi. AirPods use bluetooth. Two entirely different animals.

 

[EPO75]

Airplay requires wifi. AirPods use bluetooth. Two entirely different animals.

So? You didn't read my post?

 

[bigshot]

The AirPods work with bluetooth, not wifi. We're told they don't support lossless too. So if pigs had wings, they could fly.

 

[EPO75]

The AirPods work with bluetooth, not wifi.

Yeah your not reading, I said if they ALLOW Airplay2 streaming which is the rumour they are working on.

 

[bigshot]

They are working on this for existing APMs, not future APM models? Where did you hear that? If the current APMs had the ability to stream over wifi, they would have implemented it. That is very simple to do. Every computer and cell phone does that nowadays.

 

[Paninnguaq]

I don't think they found wifi antennas in the Airpods Max on teardowns.

 

[bigshot]

Quoting this from another forum...

Eddy Cue is Apple’s senior vice president of services and the person who oversees Apple Music. He didn’t mince words when he told Billboard that the sudden proliferation of lossless audio isn’t going to significantly evolve or change how we listen to music. “There’s no question it’s not going to be lossless,” he said when asked what technologies will bring about the “next-gen” of music streaming. Cue firmly stands on the side of the crowd that argues most people can’t hear any difference between CD-quality or hi-res tracks and the AAC or MP3 files that’ve been filling their ears for so long now. He did acknowledge that the higher-bit rate tracks might matter to music lovers with particularly sharp hearing or premium audio equipment, but he was also direct about how niche that group is.

“The reality of lossless is: if you take 100 people and you take a stereo song in lossless and you take a song that’s been in Apple Music that’s compressed, I don’t know if it’s 99 or 98 can’t tell the difference.” Cue revealed that he has regularly done blind tests with the Apple Music team, and they confirm how rare it is for anyone to be able to consistently recognize lossless audio. “You can tell somebody, ‘Oh, you’re listening to a lossless [song],’ and they tell you, ‘Oh, wow. That sounds incredible.’ They’re just saying it because you told them it’s lossless and it sounds like the right thing to say, but you just can’t tell.”

https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/9/22525028/apple-music-spatial-audio-dolby-atmos-hands-on

 

[EPO75]

They are working on this for existing APMs, not future APM models? Where did you hear that? If the current APMs had the ability to stream over wifi, they would have implemented it. That is very simple to do. Every computer and cell phone does that nowadays.

I don't think they found wifi antennas in the Airpods Max on teardowns.

Yeah unfortunately not, probably in the Airpod Pro Max. Anyways the rumour was using the U1 chip for lossless but that would be real engineering...

 

[guscmaia]

Can you listen to high res music on the AirPods Max when using the 3.5mm lighting cable? I'm not sure what sort of conversion the cable does when you connect it to a 3.5mm.

Yes H-B0mb. The 3.5mm cable apple sold separately is an inverted-dac. As mentioned by Apple on their forum and product (cable) page, if you plug the cable you can achieve Lossless. Although, to experience Hi-res Lossless you need a dedicated DAC. I use mine with an Dragonfly DAC plugged on my iPhone and listen clearly to the difference (on hi-res lossless mainly). Lot more Headroom and definition on the low-end and hi-end. On Bluetooth i enabled the Headphone Accomodations on "Balanced" to improve the definition. Anyway, the DAC makes a perceivable difference.

 

[ouimetnick]

I didn’t read through all 6 pages, but why isn’t there a lightning to lightning connector? Instead of lightning to 3.5 to lightning where the audio goes from digital> analog> digital, how about a solution that takes the digital signal from the lightning connector on an iPhone and sends the digital signal untouched to the lightning connector of the AirPods Max? Concert the signal from digital to analog ONCE (inside the AirPods Max).

 

[JasonHB]

Yes H-B0mb. The 3.5mm cable apple sold separately is an inverted-dac. As mentioned by Apple on their forum and product (cable) page, if you plug the cable you can achieve Lossless. Although, to experience Hi-res Lossless you need a dedicated DAC. I use mine with an Dragonfly DAC plugged on my iPhone and listen clearly to the difference (on hi-res lossless mainly). Lot more Headroom and definition on the low-end and hi-end. On Bluetooth i enabled the Headphone Accomodations on "Balanced" to improve the definition. Anyway, the DAC makes a perceivable difference.

3.5mm cable only supports 24/48. Still lossless, but not hi-res lossless and as you say, you need an external DAC for that. The DragonFly only supports 24/96 and won’t do the full 24/192 but it’s still superb. Just upgraded from a Cobalt to a decent stand alone DAC and that difference was huge

Jason

 

[bsamcash]

Yes H-B0mb. The 3.5mm cable apple sold separately is an inverted-dac. As mentioned by Apple on their forum and product (cable) page, if you plug the cable you can achieve Lossless. Although, to experience Hi-res Lossless you need a dedicated DAC. I use mine with an Dragonfly DAC plugged on my iPhone and listen clearly to the difference (on hi-res lossless mainly). Lot more Headroom and definition on the low-end and hi-end. On Bluetooth i enabled the Headphone Accomodations on "Balanced" to improve the definition. Anyway, the DAC makes a perceivable difference.

This is incorrect. It is not lossless. Not even while wired directly. The internal DAC in the headset does not support lossless.

 

[bigshot]

He didn't read the rest of the thread I guess.

 

[jazz1]

Okay, now I'm really going to blow it up. I wish Apple made a cabled only headphone like the current iPod Pro Max. Just so I could use it with my DAC/Amp equipment. I think Apple's design of the current iPod Pro Max is actually ground breaking. I'd love to see what they could do people that go the extra mile for good sounding music. Such as a cabled/DAC/Amp. experience. It is easy to argue that is not Apple's "thing". But, geez they do now offer Lossless!

 

[bigshot]

I guess Apple figures that the whole point of the APMs is the sound processing, which probably would require more horsepower built into the headphones if you were going to do all the processing in the cans instead of doing it in the phone and pushing the output to the cans. There are lots of normal wired headphones.

And the AAC codec is audibly transparent. A wire won't make music sound any better.