High Res on AirPods Max when using the lightning cable

[haralds]

I just checked the MFI Accessory Interface Specification. The Lightning audio is capable of Apple Lossless at up to 24 bits.
It is not yet clear whether they will add a higher quality BLE codec. AirPlay2 always uses Lossless.

 

[LeonPro]

More plot twist, Apple just confirmed that you actually can't enjoy their Apple Lossless when streaming via Bluetooth.

"Apple has confirmed to T3 that this equipment, sadly, does not include AirPods Pro or AirPods Max. Both of Apple's elite headphone models only use the Bluetooth AAC codec when connected to an iPhone, which means they can't receive the full quality of the Apple Music 'Lossless' files, which will be encoded as ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec) files."

And just when we were hoping there was a secret activation on the existing chips to allow it.

 

[Lemon Olive]

More plot twist, Apple just confirmed that you actually can't enjoy their Apple Lossless when streaming via Bluetooth.

"Apple has confirmed to T3 that this equipment, sadly, does not include AirPods Pro or AirPods Max. Both of Apple's elite headphone models only use the Bluetooth AAC codec when connected to an iPhone, which means they can't receive the full quality of the Apple Music 'Lossless' files, which will be encoded as ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec) files."

And just when we were hoping there was a secret activation on the existing chips to allow it.

If you couldn't do it already with the thousand ways there are to play lossless audio on iPhone, Apple adding such tracks to Apple Music doesn't somehow change that.

 

[haralds]

BlueTooth 2.0+ EDR can handle up to 2.1Mbit/sec. Apple Lossless (ALAC) typically requires < 1Mbit/sec.
It is technically possible to do a firmware upgrade to support a ALAC, which has less overhead than AAC.

Apple would not announce this until they were ready.

 

[LeonPro]

If you couldn't do it already with the thousand ways there are to play lossless audio on iPhone, Apple adding such tracks to Apple Music doesn't somehow change that.

Yes. Except that, we're talking about its relation to the APM capability for this thread.

BlueTooth 2.0+ EDR can handle up to 2.1Mbit/sec. Apple Lossless (ALAC) typically requires < 1Mbit/sec.
It is technically possible to do a firmware upgrade to support a ALAC, which has less overhead than AAC.

Apple would not announce this until they were ready.

We shall see.

 

[G5isAlive]

Have to admit even for a diehard Apple Fan this is disappointing news.

 

[dandrewk]

Have to admit even for a diehard Apple Fan this is disappointing news.

If you've read the thread, this should not be at all surprising.

 

[H-B0mb]

Have to admit even for a diehard Apple Fan this is disappointing news.

This is unbelievable. I mean if the APMs were an old device then fair enough, but they are not even 6 months old and Apple hifi/lossless would have been known about well before the APM release.

For the first time in a long time I’m quite annoyed with Apple

 

[Lemon Olive]

Yes. Except that, we're talking about its relation to the APM capability for this thread.

There is no relationship between AirPods Max and Lossless audio. None. If they aren't Lightning headphones with an onboard DAC, they're not doing lossless audio. Period. This remains the only way to listen to lossless audio on iPhone via headphones, like it was 5 years ago.

 

[Spainask27]

I'm so disappointed. Was extremely excited about this news and can't believe that now AirPods Max won't be able to support it wired. I understand that is not possible by BT, but not even wired is such a disappointment after expending 600€ just 6 months ago on them.

 

[Ryanreid23]

I'm so disappointed. Was extremely excited about this news and can't believe that now AirPods Max won't be able to support it wired. I understand that is not possible by BT, but not even wired is such a disappointment after expending 600€ just 6 months ago on them.

But why wouldn't wired work, the cable has the required DAC built in, there is no reason why it shouldn't support the standard Lossless tier

 

[dandrewk]

I'm guessing some folks don't fully understand the limitations of bluetooth. Even if Apple's CODEC supported high res audio, it would still be so compressed and you would never know the difference.

There is only one way to listen to hi res, lossless audio - via a wired headphone patched through a quality DAC/headphone amplifier.

 

[G5isAlive]

If you've read the thread, this should not be at all surprising.

pray tell, what is not disappointing? My comment was made after reading this thread. Still disappointed lol

 

[dandrewk]

pray tell, what is not disappointing? My comment was made after reading this thread. Still disappointed lol

You quoted my post, but misquoted it in your response. I never said "disappointed". I said "not surprising". If you read this thread, you should have known weeks ago that hi-res lossless is impossible without a wired connection.

Mind you, I am disappointed as well. I realize that hi res would lose a massive amount of AQ when compressing to any Codec, including supposed lossless versions. Wires and DACs are a necessary, inconvenient and pricey requirement. Such is the world of audiophiles.

 

[UoMDeacon]

Some measure of disappointment is understandable...but then again, I would say the majority of us purchased the APMs before the knowledge of the existence of loss-less Apple Music. So whatever caused you to purchase the APMs in the first place still hasn't changed. It's not as if your APMs are suddenly less...is what the logical side of my brain says. On the other hand - damn it! ?

 

[dandrewk]

Some measure of disappointment is understandable...but then again, I would say the majority of us purchased the APMs before the knowledge of the existence of loss-less Apple Music. So whatever caused you to purchase the APMs in the first place still hasn't changed. It's not as if your APMs are suddenly less...is what the logical side of my brain says. On the other hand - damn it! ?

Yes, but lossless streaming is not new. Tidal has had it for years. The same principles apply, always have and always will.

 

[LeonPro]

Here's Apple's confirmation that using the Lightning-to-3.5mm dongle that the re-digitization is NOT AN IDENTICAL MATCH TO THE SOURCE.

"Apple told The Verge that when a 24-bit/48 kHz Apple Music lossless track is played to an iPhone into the ‌AirPods Max‌ using a Lightning cable and a Lightning-to-3.5mm dongle, the audio is converted to analog and then re-digitized to 24-bit/48 kHz. The re-digitization is not an identical match to the source and Apple is not able to say that it's lossless audio."

 

[turbineseaplane]

I don't know how anyone is defending Apple on this.

The release of the APM and this new Hi-Res Apple Music are **way** too close to give them a pass on not having compatibility.

 

[LeonPro]

Although I agree, I feel like Apple was pressured to support Hi-Res due to Spotify competition. So any products developed and launched prior to this obviously wouldn't have the functionality.

As much as I wished there was a secret functionality in the APM chip to activate this, I'm afraid the signal path itself of the APM was a missed opportunity. Everything has to go through the internal DAC/Amp. And since there is no by-passing that then it would be moot point to try and feed it lossless signal if the APM can't accept a straight analog connection.

I'm as disappointed as any APM owner. I own two (2) of these. But I'm also a headphone collector. So I've moved on with other headphones and enjoy a wired DAC/Amp connection. So at the very least, I will still be able to benefit from their Hi-Res Lossless - albeit not wirelessly or with the APM.

I can only imagine how much more sales the APM can pick up if Apple only designed this to accept their Lossless signal especially wirelessly to compete with Sony's LDAC. Oh well.

 

[H-B0mb]

Here's Apple's confirmation that using the Lightning-to-3.5mm dongle that the re-digitization is NOT AN IDENTICAL MATCH TO THE SOURCE.

"Apple told The Verge that when a 24-bit/48 kHz Apple Music lossless track is played to an iPhone into the ‌AirPods Max‌ using a Lightning cable and a Lightning-to-3.5mm dongle, the audio is converted to analog and then re-digitized to 24-bit/48 kHz. The re-digitization is not an identical match to the source and Apple is not able to say that it's lossless audio."

its not true lossless but it’s still a lot better than what would be streamed over Bluetooth right?

Also, is there such a thing as a lighting to lighting cable. I assume if one existed then the conversion would only happen once. Could that work?

 

[H-B0mb]

I don't know how anyone is defending Apple on this.

The release of the APM and this new Hi-Res Apple Music are **way** too close to give them a pass on not having compatibility.

It blows their case for tight integration between hardware and software

 

[LeonPro]

its not true lossless but it’s still a lot better than what would be streamed over Bluetooth right?

Also, is there such a thing as a lighting to lighting cable. I assume if one existed then the conversion would only happen once

The issue is that the only real way to get Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless to a headphone is via a straight analog connection that carries that signal. The APM does not have that capability as far as we've seen with news coming out since yesterday. There appears to be no way the APM full range drivers can be externally powered. No matter what you feed to it, it will have to pass through the internal DAC/Amp in the headphone. And if you use a cable, then it first converts the analog signal in the cable (A/D), and then another conversion (D/A) in the headphones.

In testing my APM with my DAC - not amplified, I've even managed to create distortion in the signal path unless I back away from the output. So even finding that proper signal output for anything than your typical iPhone, iPad, and headphone jack with a better DAC can be disorienting that I'd rather operate the APM wirelessly.

It's what it was created for and what people should be buying it for. Wired connection was just a bonus in the first place and the reason Apple didn't include the cable.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Wired connection was just a bonus in the first place and the reason Apple didn't include the cable.

I was with you up until this part.

Apple didn't include the cable because they love charging horrendously huge markups for cables now.

 

[dandrewk]

A couple of items that hasn't been addressed here:

1. Spatial Audio music via Apple Music - this is a bit intriguing. I've hated the fake 3D digital manipulations that Sony, Bose etc. have as an option. It sounds just like it is - a fake manipulation that degrades AQ. Similar to Dolby Atmos and Spatial Audio, Apple headphones/buds use metadata to form a more inversive listening experience. There won't be a ton of supported tracks yet, but it should be interesting.

2. Apple isn't charging extra for hires/lossless or Spatial Audio. Will Tidal follow suit?

 

[UoMDeacon]

Yes, but lossless streaming is not new. Tidal has had it for years. The same principles apply, always have and always will.

You're right that lossless isn't new, but APMs were never marketed as lossless. It was not and should not have been part of peoples' buying decisions for the APM, which is why I find the outrage slightly comical. But I can sympathize by hoping that Apple figures out how to potentially implement it with their custom silicon.