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Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
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So over 5 years after the previous CEO the historic worldwide earning records are still attributed to that CEO and not the one that has been there for well over 5 years, but just a few months later as soon as the earnings are lower (and that's lower from the record highs, but still quite high nonetheless) then it's suddenly all a failure and it's all attributed to the CEO that has been there for well over 5 years. That's some "logic" there.

P.S. How's it going as far as getting the punctuation and spacing working?
You twisted everything I said.Let me spell it out clearly.The iPhone was in momentum and in a league of its own when Steve handed over the company to Tim Cook.You could have placed a fool on the CEO post and it would still sell.Heck the Battery Pack on the iPhone sells more than Microsoft Lumias judging by how many I see em.Now that momentum has run its course.Apple needs another kickass product category.If it was Jobs he would NOT have had a down quarter as he would come up with another innovative category,

Hint-And what I am talking about arent Watch Bands or dongles
 
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C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,461
You twisted everything I said.Let me spell it out clearly.The iPhone was in momentum and in a league of its own when Steve handed over the company to Tim Cook.You could have placed a fool on the CEO post and it would still sell.Heck the Battery Pack on the iPhone sells more than Microsoft Lumias judging by how many I see em.Now that momentum has run its course.Apple needs another kickass product category.If it was Jobs he would NOT have had a down quarter as he would come up with another innovative category,

Hint-And what I am talking about arent Watch Bands or dongles
So the momentum was so much that well over 5 years later actual historic worldwide records were set and it's all attributed to just that momentum and has nothing to do at all with the person running the company for years, but then just months later when things back off from crazy highs for all kinds of reasons, well, that suddenly has nothing to do with it and it's all just the current person in charge that's failing suddenly. Nothing is getting twisted there as that is what you are saying.

Anyone can do it, Jobs wouldn't or would do this or that--I understand that you think that, but that doesn't make it so just because you think so. Unrealistic extreme and absolute rhetorical takes on Cook and Jobs are basically just that, unrealistic, as reality is simply far more nuanced and complex (but of course that's not fun enough for rhetoric).
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
Just use your devices as a tool for communication or entertainment, and stop worrying about superficial UI/hardware differences. After the initial excitement wears off, we will get bored and will ask for something better again.

Phone is a tool I don't get bored with tools. A tool can be lousy or great. Superficiality is very important; ask Ferrari or Elantra.
[doublepost=1469554921][/doublepost]
So the momentum was so much that well over 5 years later actual historic worldwide records were set and it's all attributed to just that momentum and has nothing to do at all with the person running the company for years, but then just months later when things back off from crazy highs for all kinds of reasons, well, that suddenly has nothing to do with it and it's all just the current person in charge that's failing suddenly. Nothing is getting twisted there as that is what you are saying.

Anyone can do it, Jobs wouldn't or would do this or that--I understand that you think that, but that doesn't make it so just because you think so. Unrealistic extreme and absolute rhetorical takes on Cook and Jobs are basically just that, unrealistic, as reality is simply far more nuanced and complex (but of course that's not fun enough for rhetoric).
seems there is a double standard in logic being used here. Been looking that way for a while.
 

Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
So the momentum was so much that well over 5 years later actual historic worldwide records were set and it's all attributed to just that momentum and has nothing to do at all with the person running the company for years, but then just months later when things back off from crazy highs for all kinds of reasons, well, that suddenly has nothing to do with it and it's all just the current person in charge that's failing suddenly.
Yes.When Tim Cook took over the reins he inherited a company with cash reserves rivalling the economies of many countries and 3 cash cow products.Its not hard to maintain a trend with near infinite cash

On the other hand STARTING a trend is a difficult job.Something Tim Cook failed at and Steve Jobs excelled at.Jobs wouldn't waste his time with Teletubbies Emojis and fashion bands at presentations.His inventions moved the world
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
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So the momentum was so much that well over 5 years later actual historic worldwide records were set and it's all attributed to just that momentum and has nothing to do at all with the person running the company for years

Er, yes? Why do you find the concept problematic?

Lesson from history:

Apple had a big seller with the iPod & iTunes. However, by ~2005 it was obvious that more and more phones were coming out with half-decent music player features, and other sources of legal music downloads were appearing and that, eventually, that was going to decimate the dedicated music player market. However, iPod sales continued to grow and didn't peak until 2009, so Apple could have said "look, iPod sales are still rising, aren't we clever! (Oh, and we tried licensing iTunes to Motorola and it was crap - so people don't want music phones)"

Instead, they were developing the iPhone - so when it launched in 2007, iTunes was still a hot property and a Unique Selling Point of the phone, and when iPod sales actually started to tank a couple of years later, the iPhone was well established and over its teething troubles - plus they had the iPad coming out to open up a new growth market,

So, now, its been obvious for the last 4-5 years that (a) the mobile market is reaching saturation and people aren't upgrading every year and (b) Samsung, Google et. al. have got past copying the iPhone and are producing serious competition. If Apple were going to pull a rabbit out of the hat they should have done it 2-3 years ago so that now, when the prophecies are actually becoming true, the new product was up and running and over the V1.0 blues.

Instead we have the Watch (see previous post) which, whatever its other strengths and failings, is completely dependent on having an iPhone so if iPhone sales tank they'll take the watch with it. C.f. the iPhone and the iPad (apart from the very early 'Steve's hobby' version) which actually pulled people in to Apple. The Watch 2 has to have Android support.

The only question is, would Jobs have done any better? We don't know, but we do have past performance: he hit home runs with the original Mac, the original iMac, the Intel Mac, the iPod, the iPhone and the iPad. Where would you put your money?
 

Sill

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2014
881
564
Yes.When Tim Cook took over the reins he inherited a company with cash reserves rivalling the economies of many countries and 3 cash cow products.Its not hard to maintain a trend with near infinite cash

On the other hand STARTING a trend is a difficult job.Something Tim Cook failed at and Steve Jobs excelled at.Jobs wouldn't waste his time with Teletubbies Emojis and fashion bands at presentations.His inventions moved the world


This.
[doublepost=1469630651][/doublepost]
Lesson from history:

Apple had a big seller with the iPod & iTunes. However, by ~2005 it was obvious that more and more phones were coming out with half-decent music player features, and other sources of legal music downloads were appearing and that, eventually, that was going to decimate the dedicated music player market. However, iPod sales continued to grow and didn't peak until 2009, so Apple could have said "look, iPod sales are still rising, aren't we clever! (Oh, and we tried licensing iTunes to Motorola and it was crap - so people don't want music phones)"

Instead, they were developing the iPhone - so when it launched in 2007, iTunes was still a hot property and a Unique Selling Point of the phone, and when iPod sales actually started to tank a couple of years later, the iPhone was well established and over its teething troubles - plus they had the iPad coming out to open up a new growth market,

So, now, its been obvious for the last 4-5 years that (a) the mobile market is reaching saturation and people aren't upgrading every year and (b) Samsung, Google et. al. have got past copying the iPhone and are producing serious competition. If Apple were going to pull a rabbit out of the hat they should have done it 2-3 years ago so that now, when the prophecies are actually becoming true, the new product was up and running and over the V1.0 blues.

Instead we have the Watch (see previous post) which, whatever its other strengths and failings, is completely dependent on having an iPhone so if iPhone sales tank they'll take the watch with it. C.f. the iPhone and the iPad (apart from the very early 'Steve's hobby' version) which actually pulled people in to Apple. The Watch 2 has to have Android support.

The only question is, would Jobs have done any better? We don't know, but we do have past performance: he hit home runs with the original Mac, the original iMac, the Intel Mac, the iPod, the iPhone and the iPad. Where would you put your money?

Well said.

The problem I am seeing with Cook - aside from his completely misplaced political and charitable efforts - is that he lacks the foresight that Steve had regarding market direction. Steve, depending on which of his circle you talk to, had an uncanny knack either for knowing where the market was going, or for creating the market in the first place.

For example, the iPod was a response to not just crappy music players but a crappy user experience, coupled with the idea that there was a much easier way to distribute music. No one else had figured out those three leaves on the clover. Which of course led to the fourth leaf of Apple changing the world yet again and going further up the market ladder.

The iPhone v1.0 looks quaint and almost clunky now, but if you watch the video of the big reveal, you can pick up from the crowd just why it took off. There were good phones out prior to the iPhone, but none had all the features of the iPhone. Their net interface was abysmal, voice mail was a pain to use, and those displays and keyboards were bottom of the barrel compared to what the iPhone brought. Apple added music and some useful apps to make a well rounded experience, and they changed the world again. To paraphrase Google CEO Eric Schmidt, "Dammit, we have to start over."

The iPad is one of those things that I can take or leave, but until it came along the tablet market was struggling. None of the companies making them seemed to know what they were supposed to be. Half seemed to be just displays with computers built into the back, running stripped down versions of Windows, the other half seemed to be toys running bespoke operating systems. None of them amounted to much. Along comes the iPad, which instead of being a stripped down Mac requiring apps redesigned to use on the iPad, was simply a large iPhone and thus had access to its massive app base. Instant market. The world changed again - less noticeably this time - and suddenly the other companies realized what they should be doing.

What have we gotten during Cook's tenure? The Mac Pro, the iPhone 6, the iPad Pro and the Watch.

The Mac Pro. Its beautiful. The internal design is just on the human side of a miracle. I want one even though I don't need it. But its expensive. It also requires an external chassis for expansion. Around the time of Steve's return to Apple, I think it was Apple Recon/Pelagius that passed along rumors about a professional Mac that would have moved expansion to an outboard chassis or breakout box. That rumor resurfaced after the Cube but appeared to have been buried when the expandable G5 Pro came out. With the current Pro, it appears that the plan all along was to introduce a capable small professional machine that relied on external expansion, but the technology wasn't here to do it until recently. That kind of indicates to me that the Pro was something on the drawing board for a very long time, perhaps since 1997. Therefore I don't give much credit to Cook for the Pro.

The iPhone 6. Its beautiful...ish. I own one. It lacks the crispness of the previous 4 and 5. The rounded edges, besides making the phone hard to hold when its not safely in a case, also bring it closer to the look of Android phones. I would have preferred a tapered flat edge like my current iMac. That lack of attention to such tiny details was what Apple was known for and it is sadly lacking here.

The iPad Pro. Very nice, but its simply a larger iPad, extremely well executed. With a stylus.

The Watch. Despite being sort of a blob, it actually looks quite sleek. But its not like other companies were making terrible watches and Apple saw a huge market for a watch done right. They just decided to get into the Watch business? I do own one, though many times I wonder why.

I agree that the Watch should be opened to Android users, but that may not happen. I maintain that there is another use coming for the Watch, one that people are going to be blindsided by, and that use was something Steve had conceived of at least a decade ago. That is one reason Apple is keeping the Watch exclusively in their ecosystem for the time being. We shall see.

What is there really left for Apple to do? We all get caught up in the possible future iterations of our favorite products, begging for this or that to be added, but incremental advances do not a revolution make. Unless Apple can identify a service category that needs direction (music distribution), or a popular product type that begged for a top to bottom revamp (mp3 players, phones), what else is out there that a company like Apple could master, provided they had a visionary leader? I can't think of much. Home automation? Home theater? Electric cars? None of those are things that would take us by surprise the way the iPhone or iPod did. Those are more "by the way, we're getting into this market now", than an effort to change the world. There are already great products in all those categories.

Still, this is a matter of perception. As in, I can't personally see what they should be getting into. Given the surprise that some of the Stevenotes elicited in the press and on various forums, I think I shared that perceptual difficulty with a lot of people. Steve had that "knack" for seeing the goal and the path to get there though, and thats what Cook lacks. The symbiosis on Steve's team was legendary, with all of them working towards bringing the very best concepts to life in the very best way possible. But that doesn't mean that any of the individuals he left behind could take up his presentation clicker and keep going. I think the person who needs to lead Apple hasn't been presented yet. Or maybe Forstall, long rumored to have been personally selected by Steve as a possible successor, will pop out of the wings ten years later, having learned some hard lessons, and he'll steer the company back on track?
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,033
8,481
As in, I can't personally see what they should be getting into.

Well, I think the car might be a good, if high-stakes, idea - it fits the iPod model of lots of makers trying to do EVs but not ticking all the boxes & China is poised to make huge inroads into the car market just as soon as it starts making desirable designs instead of BMW/Merc knockoffs. However, its a longer game than making personal electronics and I think they may be 5 years behind the curve there (unless they're just waiting with their chequebook open until Tesla's investors get cold feet).

Meanwhile, its important that they don't become complacent and keep the phone, tablet and computer ranges ticking over - they're not going to see meteoric growth but they're important for maintaining the brand. Until the last couple of years they've done well with Macs: pushing retina displays when PCs had stuck at 1080p, pushing SSDs as standard, then PCIe SSDs... the question is, how much of that was "momentum" from the Jobs era? Recently, Cook has been doing a really good impression of someone more interested in watch bands than laptops.
 
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Sill

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2014
881
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Well, I think the car might be a good, if high-stakes, idea - it fits the iPod model of lots of makers trying to do EVs but not ticking all the boxes & China is poised to make huge inroads into the car market just as soon as it starts making desirable designs instead of BMW/Merc knockoffs. However, its a longer game than making personal electronics and I think they may be 5 years behind the curve there (unless they're just waiting with their chequebook open until Tesla's investors get cold feet).

Agreed. I think that the EV investment - if bean-counted well enough - may not be that much of a problem.

Recall that GM spent less than $1bn getting Saturn off the ground back in the late 1980s. Of course they had considerable experience in design process, supply chain, and retailing of vehicles, but they also fell on their face because they had no idea what to do with it after the initial success. Taking inflation into account Apple is probably looking at about $4.5bn to get this project out the door. Given that they've thought nothing of writing a check for $3bn to buy a headphone manufacturer that I believe was worth about $500m - at best - the car shouldn't affect them at all.

Technology has made incredible bounds since Saturn. Given that the entire vehicle could be modeled and tested in software prior to going into prototype, its a serious possibility Apple could have the car fully realized for that price tag. Also consider that they have incredible amounts of retail experience, along with relationships with all the major retail space holdings in cities across the world. Apple would most definitely pursue a boutique approach as Tesla has, rather than try to do a traditional car lot experience. I wouldn't be surprised to find the Apple EV in upscale malls just as Tesla has done.

Meanwhile, its important that they don't become complacent and keep the phone, tablet and computer ranges ticking over - they're not going to see meteoric growth but they're important for maintaining the brand. Until the last couple of years they've done well with Macs: pushing retina displays when PCs had stuck at 1080p, pushing SSDs as standard, then PCIe SSDs... the question is, how much of that was "momentum" from the Jobs era? Recently, Cook has been doing a really good impression of someone more interested in watch bands than laptops.

Yes, that has reminded me slightly of Jobs' worst moment at a keynote, when he seemingly obsessed over iCards for what seemed an eternity. Everyone interested in Apple said "huh?", not knowing that he had stretched what should have been a five minute demo out enough to cover something else that didn't launch. So when I see Cook prattle on about all the sweet new bands, thats when I start to wonder if all the fashion and fluff is there not just to cover something that didn't launch, but the fact that they really don't have anything to launch.

Even though I'm having a hard time seeing what the next hot category in technology is going to be, I can say with some confidence that I can see a direction for software. I think the interface paradigm is due for a revolution. Long after skeuomorphism was stuffed into Scott Forstall's back pocket and he was shoved out the door, and decades after the original Mac, we're still looking at a desktop/office metaphor. It was done that way to ease peoples' transition into the computing world. I don't doubt its efficient and it works well, but is there something better now that we're all comfortable with these machines? Apple experimented with a depth-enhanced interface to replace the Finder back in the 90s. I still have it installed on an old machine, I think. It was very neat but very difficult to use. I doubt its the correct path but it offered one way of looking away from the desk and file cabinet metaphor.
 
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Sill

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2014
881
564
I'm curious …

I"m trying like mad to find a link for you. I used to know the name off the top of my head, but it has escaped me. For some reason I keeping remembering "V-Twin", which was Apple's original empirical search technology prior to Spotlight.

Searching online isn't turning up anything either, though I did find a thread here from 2008 where Apple had announced they were patenting some 3D Finder stuff, and 5 pages of discussion ensued with people saying Sun had done it already, or SGI 15 years previous, etc, and not one person mentioned the software I'm talking about. It was an old Larry Tesler project that was discontinued in 1998, I think, and it obviously ran on the PowerMacs of the day, probably under OS8.

If you want an idea of what it was like, this is close, but designed for OS X:

3D Filespace for OS X
[doublepost=1469660120][/doublepost]... and I found the name.

It was variously known as "Project X" or "Hot Sauce". Apparently it was intended to help web navigation, though the install I had was designed as a 3D visual file system. It was probably extensible to accommodate different purposes. I hope I can still find my install disk somewhere.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,166
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Gotta be in it to win it
Yes.When Tim Cook took over the reins he inherited a company with cash reserves rivalling the economies of many countries and 3 cash cow products.Its not hard to maintain a trend with near infinite cash

On the other hand STARTING a trend is a difficult job.Something Tim Cook failed at and Steve Jobs excelled at.Jobs wouldn't waste his time with Teletubbies Emojis and fashion bands at presentations.His inventions moved the world
This is the way of the corporate world. Bill G started Microsoft and now Satya Nadella is CEO, riding on Gates' and Ballmers' coat-tails? Right? I'm trying to think of one new thing Nadella did to run that multi-billion dollar company. On the other hand Cook released the 5s with all sorts of improvements and the 6s that is a record breaker. Granted it's not a new invention, similar to Windows 10, which isn't a new invention either. But apple watch is, apple car will be, etc.

He's a different sort than jobs and people don't like him for that, but by all indications apple is doing just fine under his rein.
 

Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
This is the way of the corporate world. Bill G started Microsoft and now Satya Nadella is CEO, riding on Gates' and Ballmers' coat-tails? Right? I'm trying to think of one new thing Nadella did to run that multi-billion dollar company. On the other hand Cook released the 5s with all sorts of improvements and the 6s that is a record breaker. Granted it's not a new invention, similar to Windows 10, which isn't a new invention either. But apple watch is, apple car will be, etc.

He's a different sort than jobs and people don't like him for that, but by all indications apple is doing just fine under his rein.
There is a difference between Microsoft and Apple.When Ballmer handed over the company to Nadella the mobile division was bleeding a lot of cash and Microsoft Surface wasn't helping.Microsoft fiḍ not have a fast growing product like the iPhone.Hence Nadella like Tim Cook changed their focus to a growing product which for them is enterprise,the legacy left behind by Gates and Ballmer and in Tim case ,Jobs

Your post proves my point that maintaining the growth set by an earlier visionary CEO is easy to do.Coming up with a innovative product which sets markets on Fire is not.

iPad Pro is an improved Air 2.6s is just improving upon what Jobs invented.Apple Watch hasn't flooded the market like the iPhone did back in 2007

Jobs was a visionary.No doubt he would have come up with another innovative product category by now had he been alive looking at his track record.All of Jobs products I see everywhere.iPhone is everywhere.iPad is everywhere.Starbucks has a ton of people clanking away at their Macs.The Watch in comparison is nowhere to be seen.

As far as the Apple Car is concerned ,Tesla is already giving them a run for their money .Tim Cook is just a run of the mill CEO.You could replace him with Nadella,Sundar Pichai or Elon Musk and Apple would still earn raving quarters.

But would these guys replace Steve Jobs?Not really
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,166
25,375
Gotta be in it to win it
There is a difference between Microsoft and Apple.When Ballmer handed over the company to Nadella the mobile division was bleeding a lot of cash and Microsoft Surface wasn't helping.Microsoft fiḍ not have a fast growing product like the iPhone.Hence Nadella like Tim Cook changed their focus to a growing product which for them is enterprise,the legacy left behind by Gates and Ballmer and in Tim case ,Jobs

Your post proves my point that maintaining the growth set by an earlier visionary CEO is easy to do.Coming up with a innovative product which sets markets on Fire is not.

iPad Pro is an improved Air 2.6s is just improving upon what Jobs invented.Apple Watch hasn't flooded the market like the iPhone did back in 2007

Jobs was a visionary.No doubt he would have come up with another innovative product category by now had he been alive looking at his track record.All of Jobs products I see everywhere.iPhone is everywhere.iPad is everywhere.Starbucks has a ton of people clanking away at their Macs.The Watch in comparison is nowhere to be seen.

As far as the Apple Car is concerned ,Tesla is already giving them a run for their money .Tim Cook is just a run of the mill CEO.You could replace him with Nadella,Sundar Pichai or Elon Musk and Apple would still earn raving quarters.

But would these guys replace Steve Jobs?Not really
The entire car industry is riding on the coat tails of Henry ford. What your post proved is that visionary must start and then get out. Visionaries don't last in the long term they'll kill the company they don't know how to grow it. You need a Tim cook to come in and explode the company and take it to the next level. Run of the mill CEOs don't take a company to most valuable.

when the Apple car comes out preorders will kill tesla. Hope musk has a plan.

Btw Starbucks in ny, Apple Watch rules. You should come to the east coast.

Btw the next killer apps will be in healthcare and medicinal well care. Tim is already on board with this - his vision.
 
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Benjamin Frost

Suspended
May 9, 2015
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5,001
London, England
This.
[doublepost=1469630651][/doublepost]

Well said.

The problem I am seeing with Cook - aside from his completely misplaced political and charitable efforts - is that he lacks the foresight that Steve had regarding market direction. Steve, depending on which of his circle you talk to, had an uncanny knack either for knowing where the market was going, or for creating the market in the first place.

For example, the iPod was a response to not just crappy music players but a crappy user experience, coupled with the idea that there was a much easier way to distribute music. No one else had figured out those three leaves on the clover. Which of course led to the fourth leaf of Apple changing the world yet again and going further up the market ladder.

The iPhone v1.0 looks quaint and almost clunky now, but if you watch the video of the big reveal, you can pick up from the crowd just why it took off. There were good phones out prior to the iPhone, but none had all the features of the iPhone. Their net interface was abysmal, voice mail was a pain to use, and those displays and keyboards were bottom of the barrel compared to what the iPhone brought. Apple added music and some useful apps to make a well rounded experience, and they changed the world again. To paraphrase Google CEO Eric Schmidt, "Dammit, we have to start over."

The iPad is one of those things that I can take or leave, but until it came along the tablet market was struggling. None of the companies making them seemed to know what they were supposed to be. Half seemed to be just displays with computers built into the back, running stripped down versions of Windows, the other half seemed to be toys running bespoke operating systems. None of them amounted to much. Along comes the iPad, which instead of being a stripped down Mac requiring apps redesigned to use on the iPad, was simply a large iPhone and thus had access to its massive app base. Instant market. The world changed again - less noticeably this time - and suddenly the other companies realized what they should be doing.

What have we gotten during Cook's tenure? The Mac Pro, the iPhone 6, the iPad Pro and the Watch.

The Mac Pro. Its beautiful. The internal design is just on the human side of a miracle. I want one even though I don't need it. But its expensive. It also requires an external chassis for expansion. Around the time of Steve's return to Apple, I think it was Apple Recon/Pelagius that passed along rumors about a professional Mac that would have moved expansion to an outboard chassis or breakout box. That rumor resurfaced after the Cube but appeared to have been buried when the expandable G5 Pro came out. With the current Pro, it appears that the plan all along was to introduce a capable small professional machine that relied on external expansion, but the technology wasn't here to do it until recently. That kind of indicates to me that the Pro was something on the drawing board for a very long time, perhaps since 1997. Therefore I don't give much credit to Cook for the Pro.

The iPhone 6. Its beautiful...ish. I own one. It lacks the crispness of the previous 4 and 5. The rounded edges, besides making the phone hard to hold when its not safely in a case, also bring it closer to the look of Android phones. I would have preferred a tapered flat edge like my current iMac. That lack of attention to such tiny details was what Apple was known for and it is sadly lacking here.

The iPad Pro. Very nice, but its simply a larger iPad, extremely well executed. With a stylus.

The Watch. Despite being sort of a blob, it actually looks quite sleek. But its not like other companies were making terrible watches and Apple saw a huge market for a watch done right. They just decided to get into the Watch business? I do own one, though many times I wonder why.

I agree that the Watch should be opened to Android users, but that may not happen. I maintain that there is another use coming for the Watch, one that people are going to be blindsided by, and that use was something Steve had conceived of at least a decade ago. That is one reason Apple is keeping the Watch exclusively in their ecosystem for the time being. We shall see.

What is there really left for Apple to do? We all get caught up in the possible future iterations of our favorite products, begging for this or that to be added, but incremental advances do not a revolution make. Unless Apple can identify a service category that needs direction (music distribution), or a popular product type that begged for a top to bottom revamp (mp3 players, phones), what else is out there that a company like Apple could master, provided they had a visionary leader? I can't think of much. Home automation? Home theater? Electric cars? None of those are things that would take us by surprise the way the iPhone or iPod did. Those are more "by the way, we're getting into this market now", than an effort to change the world. There are already great products in all those categories.

Still, this is a matter of perception. As in, I can't personally see what they should be getting into. Given the surprise that some of the Stevenotes elicited in the press and on various forums, I think I shared that perceptual difficulty with a lot of people. Steve had that "knack" for seeing the goal and the path to get there though, and thats what Cook lacks. The symbiosis on Steve's team was legendary, with all of them working towards bringing the very best concepts to life in the very best way possible. But that doesn't mean that any of the individuals he left behind could take up his presentation clicker and keep going. I think the person who needs to lead Apple hasn't been presented yet. Or maybe Forstall, long rumored to have been personally selected by Steve as a possible successor, will pop out of the wings ten years later, having learned some hard lessons, and he'll steer the company back on track?

Another amazing post. You have a habit of writing them.

I'm intrigued, though; you hint at a killer use for the Apple Watch in the future. What might that be?
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,033
8,481
Given that they've thought nothing of writing a check for $3bn to buy a headphone manufacturer that I believe was worth about $500m - at best

Yeah. One day, maybe, we'll find out what that was all about.

I wouldn't be surprised to find the Apple EV in upscale malls just as Tesla has done.

...some of the bigger Apple stores might have space for a car on display. Meanwhile, my local out-of-town PC World "computer superstore" (which has a fair sized Apple store-within-a-store) has way more floor space than they have interesting things to display and could easily accommodate an Apple Car display.

I think the interface paradigm is due for a revolution. Long after skeuomorphism was stuffed into Scott Forstall's back pocket and he was shoved out the door, and decades after the original Mac, we're still looking at a desktop/office metaphor.

Hmm. Not sure I agree there. I think a lot of babies got thrown out with the skeuomorphic bathwater. Certainly, UI design had lost its way - partly because "aesthetic" standards had got so high that interfaces were getting designed by artists with no clue about functionality. There were 2 points to the skeuomorphic GUI:

1. The form should suggest functionality - if something is a 3-d sculpted button, or otherwise looks like it should move, that's because its inviting you to press it. If something looks like an address book with flippable pages, it should work like an address book. The Forstall-era "contacts" app was a prime example of how that got broken: looked like a book with facing pages - didn't work remotely the way its appearance suggested. The problem wasn't skeuomorphism (or the leather and green baize) it was bad skeuomorphism.

2. Standardization, standardization, standardization. The "visual metaphor" stuff is all well and good, but not, IMHO, the main reason that the original Mac/Xerox GUI succeeded. Before Mac, for basic operations like copy/paste, you had WordStar commands (^K-whatever), Emacs commands (Meta-X-whatever), Visicalc commands (/whatever), Lotus 1-2-3-style commands and umpteen other visually unique and logically diverse menu/command systems to learn. Software houses were even trying to copyright their menu/command systems. After Mac? Completely standard menu/command systems for basic actions like open/close/save/exit/select/copy/paste... Learn to use one App and you have a pretty good idea of how to get started on the rest. Apple produced "style guides" for developers laying down the conventions, what buttons should look like, how dialog boxes should be worded etc. Somewhere along the lines, developers lost the plot and started diverging again, using skeuomorphism as an excuse to make their application look and work differently to everything else.

What we're seeing post-skeuomorphism is an awful lot of mystery-meat navigation, where you're supposed to just guess which bits of the spartan display you click on to make things happen.

The "desktop metaphor" never got out of date - it just ceased to be a metaphor, and became about how software UIs actually work rather than some stylised notion of a physical desktop. Who cares if the "save" icon still looks like a 1990s floppy disc as long as everybody knows it means "save"? The roadsign for "speed camera" looks like no camera made in the last 50 years (because a featureless black rectangle could be anything).

I think the standard UI is now hard to change (a bit like the QWERTY keyboard). Apple has tried to change the file load/save/rename metaphor to "something better" in OS X, but I don't think that has been very successful - if only because so much software still uses the old system and makes things confusing. Tablets and phones have introduced quite a different UI concept, but its pretty central to the Apple philosophy that Mobile and Laptop/Desktop UIs don't mix.

The problem today is that the PC is a mature technology at the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" stage. Microsoft got badly burnt trying to "fix it" with Windows 8 and had to partly backtrack with Win 10.

Apple don't need a miracle every year - what they do need to do is to keep their hardware fresh, because even if that 2-year-old processor is still better than the best available equivalent, that's a very hard concept to sell to the punters. This problem with the MacBooks needing very specific processors which are the last to emerge from Intel was quite foreseeable and is likely to recur cycle-after-cycle - Apple need a Plan B or, at least, they need to explain the situation to the masses.
 

Radon87000

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Nov 29, 2013
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The entire car industry is riding on the coat tails of Henry ford. What your post proved is that visionary must start and then get out. Visionaries don't last in the long term they'll kill the company they don't know how to grow it. You need a Tim cook to come in and explode the company and take it to the next level. Run of the mill CEOs don't take a company to most valuable.

Whats actually funny about this post is that Steve Jobs rescued Apple from bankruptcy.Cook cant even fix down quarters .The stuff Tim "invented" AKA the Watch and Services make up just 10-15% of Apple.The remaining 85% revenue is thanks to Jobs.No growth?lol .The guy basically invented the backbone of the company

when the Apple car comes out preorders will kill tesla. Hope musk has a plan.

Elon Musk' thoughts on Apple Car

"Apple hired the Tesla engineers we fired: Elon Musk"

"Elon Musk Called Apple's Car a 'Missed Opportunity'"

Nope.He aint worried at all and he shoudlnt be.By the time Apple releases it ,Tesla will already be working on something better

Btw the next killer apps will be in healthcare and medicinal well care. Tim is already on board with this - his vision.
Not on the level of iPhone,iPad or Mac.You want to know how the iPhone was recieved by competitors when it launched.The creator of Android stopped his car midway to his office and cancelled all of their existing work on it.THIS is revolutionary.Healthcare?Big deal.Sammy is already nipping at Apple's heels in that department
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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There is a difference between Microsoft and Apple.When Ballmer handed over the company to Nadella the mobile division was bleeding a lot of cash and Microsoft Surface wasn't helping.Microsoft fiḍ not have a fast growing product like the iPhone.Hence Nadella like Tim Cook changed their focus to a growing product which for them is enterprise,the legacy left behind by Gates and Ballmer and in Tim case ,Jobs

Your post proves my point that maintaining the growth set by an earlier visionary CEO is easy to do.Coming up with a innovative product which sets markets on Fire is not.

iPad Pro is an improved Air 2.6s is just improving upon what Jobs invented.Apple Watch hasn't flooded the market like the iPhone did back in 2007

Jobs was a visionary.No doubt he would have come up with another innovative product category by now had he been alive looking at his track record.All of Jobs products I see everywhere.iPhone is everywhere.iPad is everywhere.Starbucks has a ton of people clanking away at their Macs.The Watch in comparison is nowhere to be seen.

As far as the Apple Car is concerned ,Tesla is already giving them a run for their money .Tim Cook is just a run of the mill CEO.You could replace him with Nadella,Sundar Pichai or Elon Musk and Apple would still earn raving quarters.

But would these guys replace Steve Jobs?Not really
The entire car industry us riding on the coat tails of Henry ford. What your post proved is that visionary must start and then get out. Visionaries don't last in the long term they'll kill the company they don't know how to grow it. You need a Tim cook to come in and explode the company and take it to the next level.

when the Apple car comes out preorders will kill tesla. Hope musk has a plan.

Bye Starbucks in ny, Apple Watch rules. You should come to the east coast.
Whats actually funny about this post is that Steve Jobs rescued Apple from bankruptcy.Cook cant even fix down quarters .The stuff Tim "invented" AKA the Watch and Services make up just 10-15% of Apple.The remaining 85% revenue is thanks to Jobs.No growth?lol .The guy basically invented the backbone of the company



Elon Musk' thoughts on Apple Car

"Apple hired the Tesla engineers we fired: Elon Musk"

"Elon Musk Called Apple's Car a 'Missed Opportunity'"

Nope.He aint worried at all and he shoudlnt be.By the time Apple releases it ,Tesla will already be working on something better


Not on the level of iPhone,iPad or Mac.You want to know how the iPhone was recieved by competitors when it launched.The creator of Android stopped his car midway to his office and cancelled all of their existing work on it.THIS is revolutionary.Healthcare?Big deal.Sammy is already nipping at Apple's heels in that department
with trillions of dollars at stake healthcare is the next big front. I thought you would have recognized that.

Steve jobs rescued Apple and Tim cook exploded it. Tim is responsible for the explosive growth of iPhone.

Tesla better be careful, could go the way of bbq.com.
 

Radon87000

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This is the hallmark of a real innovative CEO folks.The so called "Explosive growth CEO"

"Samsung was the most popular smartphone vendor in the quarter with a leading 22.4 percent market share, nearly double Apple's 11.8 percent market share. Samsung experienced 5.5 percent year-over-year growth on the strength of the Galaxy S7 launch in March, whereas Apple declined 15 percent compared to the year-ago quarter as customers await the iPhone 7 series in September. "

"The ASP for an iPhone was $595, down 10.1% from $662 one year ago"

"Apple also ceded market share to Chinese rival Huawei"

"Samsung's profits are now about 2/3rds of Apple's
"

For Apple, the fiscal third quarter is seasonally its lowest of the year.

"Its rival Apple, the world's second-largest smartphone maker, is struggling to boost iPhone sales and reported a 27% quarterly drop in profits."

 
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C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
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This is the hallmark of a real innovative CEO folks.The so called "Explosive growth CEO"

"Samsung was the most popular smartphone vendor in the quarter with a leading 22.4 percent market share, nearly double Apple's 11.8 percent market share. Samsung experienced 5.5 percent year-over-year growth on the strength of the Galaxy S7 launch in March, whereas Apple declined 15 percent compared to the year-ago quarter as customers await the iPhone 7 series in September. "

"The ASP for an iPhone was $595, down 10.1% from $662 one year ago"

"Apple also ceded market share to Chinese rival Huawei"

"Samsung's profits are now about 2/3rds of Apple's
"

For Apple, the fiscal third quarter is seasonally its lowest of the year.

"Its rival Apple, the world's second-largest smartphone maker, is struggling to boost iPhone sales and reported a 27% quarterly drop in profits."
Samsung just recently released a new model that people have been waiting for. And how does it all compare to what third were like for both at this time last year, for example? Apples and oranges and all that?
 
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grahamperrin

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… "Project X" or "Hot Sauce". Apparently it was intended to help web navigation, though the install I had was designed as a 3D visual file system. It was probably extensible to accommodate different purposes. I hope I can still find my install disk somewhere.

Ah, yes! I remember using that. Thanks. I might continue the discussion elsewhere (I'll @ you if I do).
 

Sill

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2014
881
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Another amazing post. You have a habit of writing them.

I'm intrigued, though; you hint at a killer use for the Apple Watch in the future. What might that be?


This is going to sound obtuse, I know, but I can't say. I'll send you a PM about it shortly.
[doublepost=1469746703][/doublepost]
Ah, yes! I remember using that. Thanks. I might continue the discussion elsewhere (I'll @ you if I do).

I'm fine with that.
 
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Sill

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Yeah. One day, maybe, we'll find out what that was all about.

I'm wondering if there wasn't something else going on. Sometimes companies will pay a premium for something they largely don't need, just to get to one little kernel inside that they do need. An air transportation company will buy a smaller rival company just to get their gates, and then close the entire operation down and write it off. There really wasn't much that I would think Apple needed from Beats. They had a respected brand, but its not like Apple doesn't have one of their own. Had they come out with their own headphones - or bought a more competent company like Sennheiser or Beyerdynamic - they would have been very well received.

Though I mentioned home theater as a possible category that wouldn't take me by surprise, don't let that seem like I was saying they should stay out of it. I think Apple should jump in with both feet, perhaps by picking up Denon or Harman/Kardon. If nothing else, Sonos would have been a very welcome acquisition that very few people would have questioned and many people are actively trying to make happen. Given Apple's connections in the film production world, they could have really extended the Sonos concept into something insanely great. What home theater enthusiast wouldn't have appreciated a well-designed multichannel experience that could expand its support for new surround standards via a simple software update or at the most a plug in card?


...some of the bigger Apple stores might have space for a car on display. Meanwhile, my local out-of-town PC World "computer superstore" (which has a fair sized Apple store-within-a-store) has way more floor space than they have interesting things to display and could easily accommodate an Apple Car display.

Its certainly possible, though I would think that Apple - at least initially - would like to keep the display under tight control with their own people. I know their SWAS salespeople are usually direct employees of Apple, but the location may not be what they want. Plus the idea gives me bad flashbacks of the original SWAS at CompUSA and Computer City (shudder).


The "desktop metaphor" never got out of date - it just ceased to be a metaphor, and became about how software UIs actually work rather than some stylised notion of a physical desktop. Who cares if the "save" icon still looks like a 1990s floppy disc as long as everybody knows it means "save"?
I think the standard UI is now hard to change (a bit like the QWERTY keyboard). Apple has tried to change the file load/save/rename metaphor to "something better" in OS X, but I don't think that has been very successful - if only because so much software still uses the old system and makes things confusing. Tablets and phones have introduced quite a different UI concept, but its pretty central to the Apple philosophy that Mobile and Laptop/Desktop UIs don't mix.

The problem today is that the PC is a mature technology at the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" stage. Microsoft got badly burnt trying to "fix it" with Windows 8 and had to partly backtrack with Win 10.

All very good points that I agree with, solidly. I wasn't suggesting the user interface change just for the sake of change. Its just that every time someone brings up a possible interface project - like the Project X I mentioned earlier - I take great interest in it. I'm reminded of the sea change that occurred due to the introduction of the Mac desktop, and I always wonder "is this going to take us to the next level like that did?"

Even Microsoft is capable of doing this, thought they generally don't know what they have even when its painfully obvious. For some reason they took the name of a very original project - Surface - and made it the name of a line of fairly solid but pedestrian tablet devices. If you've ever seen the videos of the original Surface project, you know that it was a very amazing large scale interface for team collaboration. After I watched it, I replayed it several times and then went about forwarding it to anyone I knew who would care. It changed my opinion of Microsoft. I realized that just as Steve said the very best people he'd ever met in the business were dying day by day in Apple labs due to a lack of direction and support back in 1997, the same thing was probably happening over at Microsoft under Ballmer, 2000-2010.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,166
25,375
Gotta be in it to win it
This is the hallmark of a real innovative CEO folks.The so called "Explosive growth CEO"

"Samsung was the most popular smartphone vendor in the quarter with a leading 22.4 percent market share, nearly double Apple's 11.8 percent market share. Samsung experienced 5.5 percent year-over-year growth on the strength of the Galaxy S7 launch in March, whereas Apple declined 15 percent compared to the year-ago quarter as customers await the iPhone 7 series in September. "

"The ASP for an iPhone was $595, down 10.1% from $662 one year ago"

"Apple also ceded market share to Chinese rival Huawei"

"Samsung's profits are now about 2/3rds of Apple's
"

For Apple, the fiscal third quarter is seasonally its lowest of the year.

"Its rival Apple, the world's second-largest smartphone maker, is struggling to boost iPhone sales and reported a 27% quarterly drop in profits."
So you don't call 10 absolutely record breaking quarters explosive? With the 6s being the best selling phone ever?

I didn't see you posting "Samsung" is doomed with it's dismal quarters. Now why is that? Also failed to mentioned that apple had a better quarter than last quarter.

So lets compare flagships to flagships, because apple doesn't cater to the same market and in spite of the some of the posts, Apple has still sold more 6s' than Galaxy S7, albeit the model has been out 6 months longer.

It's not apple that has to worry about Huawei, it's Samsung. They will beat them at their own game.

About Samsung profits, you are comparing the entirety of Samsung with the entirety of Apple.

The world’s no. 1 maker of smartphones and memory chips said mobile profits would weaken in the second half after soaring 57% in April-June, and flagged higher marketing costs to combat new products from rivals.

While smartphone earnings looked choppy, Samsung said the components business would buttress second-half earnings amid signs of recovery in memory chip and display panel prices after a global slowdown in gadget sales.

http://fortune.com/2016/07/28/samsung-profits-components-galaxy-smartphones-apple/

Apples to Oranges, so to speak?
 

Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
So you don't call 10 absolutely record breaking quarters explosive? With the 6s being the best selling phone ever?
10 record breaking quarters is the past.Down quarters is the present.Samsung and Sony recovering from their dismal quarters is the present.

So lets compare flagships to flagships, because apple doesn't cater to the same market and in spite of the some of the posts, Apple has still sold more 6s' than Galaxy S7, albeit the model has been out 6 months longer.


Just because they cater to the different market doesn't mean they cant be compared revenue wise.Samsung does not enjoy obscene margins on its flagships as much as Apple so for a proper profits analysis we need to look at the entire picture.I don't bother with absolutes but rather relative ratios.Samsung's share and profits gre.Apple's didn't and on the contrary they fell.This is a cause for concern
It's not apple that has to worry about Huawei, it's Samsung. They will beat them at their own game.

Why?Because you say so?Huawei specifically stated iirc that they plan to surpass Apple's share by 2020
In addition despite being a Chinese company their hardware rivals Apple

About Samsung profits, you are comparing the entirety of Samsung with the entirety of Apple.
The point was that Samsung is catching up to Apple.Tim Cook has a LOT of work to do if he doesn't want to undermine investor confidence
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,033
8,481
For some reason they took the name of a very original project - Surface - and made it the name of a line of fairly solid but pedestrian tablet devices.

Yup - the original "Surface" was pretty much "Minority Report" on a tabletop. I guess they couldn't monetise it. I'd have thought that with the relatively low cost of large, high-res LCD screens these days it would be possible...

However, Microsoft's problem is that their fortune is almost entirely dependent on their DOS/Windows/Office legacy. Anything they produce that doesn't run MS Office and offer the familiar Windows UI has difficulty competing with Apple/Google/Linux on a level playing field and they're really not used to that. You'll notice now that they're rolling back their "mobile" line to Surface Pro tablets/convertibles that run "full" Windows 10 and "real" Office.
 
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