How to break out of Apple's waiting hell?

[Kingcr]

@OP:

Dude (I assume). You've written a *lot* about your frustrations across numerous threads.

I can empathise with your dilemma: I'm still using a mid-2012 MBP non-retina because it's the last laptop that Apple made that is fully maintainable. I'm still using it because I've maxed it out and so it's good enough compared to what is on the market right now and doesn't frustrate me enough to replace it.

Honestly, you need to accept that there is no such thing as a perfect device. If you wait for a manufacturer to produce the device that checks off everything on your wishlist, you'll probably be waiting a very, very long time and it'll just drive you mad.

So:

- If you're *committed* to macOS, I'd say buy a 2018 MBP if it is released later in the year. If Apple fixes the problems with the current MBP, great. If not, who knows if/when they ever will. Just buy it, and move on because you need macOS.

- If you're not committed to macOS, choose a business-class Windows laptop that suits your needs so that you get the quality you're looking for. Buy the best you can based on what's *most* important to you and move on.

And remember that any brand, including Apple, can produce a lemon device so it's pointless worrying about that. And after-sales service can be atrocious for any brand too, including Apple. Buy the device that lets you get work done, not for some intangible reason.

 

[MRrainer]

I just looked and at least here, Dell has no business-notebooks with 8th-generation Intel CPUs, either.

One can argue whether MBPs really qualify as business-notebooks - but for anyone switching from macOS, buying a non-business Windows-laptop is not a good idea to start with.

You get a 40% rebate on Precision Notebooks, though, that leads to them being about 500 CHF less expensive (if you remove Windows 10 and opt for Ubuntu) than the entry-level MBP with the same amount of RAM, same amount of GPU-memory and a similar CPU.
For the money saved, you can buy five years of pro-support plus NBD on-site.
So, I'd say the arrival of those chips in the business lineup is imminent.

A common gripe I have with Apple is the limit on 3 years of Apple Care - I get it that they rather want you to trade in the hardware. But still...

 

[hajime]

I am basically down to a few choices. Pretty need to buy this month.

1. Have used two rMBP 15" the past few years. Bought using workplace's money. The screen size and resolutions are good. If it were not because of that butterfly keyboard and the touchbar, I would have bought the MBP 15" 2017. Not very happy paying top money to get those two features that I dislike.

2. A 13" MBP 2017 + a DIY workstation. Even the 13" MBP 2017 (16GB 1TB) is over 3K CAD.

3. Huawei Matebook X Pro + a DIY workstation. Only 512GB SSD is not sufficient enough as I prefer to be able to run Mac OS, Windows and Ubuntu Linux all in one laptop. Not sure if the SSD is upgradable. Also not sure if it can be turned in to a Hackintosh easily. Uncertain about repairing cost after two years. Tried it at a store a few times. Love the keyboard, screen and portability. Read some issues of it getting hot easily due to the thin size.

4. Thinkpad P series as Carbon X1 6th gen has heat and thermal throttling issues.

Considered the Razer Blade 15 2018 but it is a bit heavy for me especially with that big AC adapter.

I read that unlike the past, the 2017 MBP have some compatibility issues running Ubuntu Linux. Anybody could confirm that?

 

[Kingcr]

I read that unlike the past, the 2017 MBP have some compatibility issues running Ubuntu Linux. Anybody could confirm that?

The latest MacBook's don't generally make great Linux machines. I'd refer you to something like https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux to see why. If you really want to run Linux, a Thinkpad will probably be the best option.

 

[hajime]

The latest MacBook's don't generally make great Linux machines. I'd refer you to something like https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux to see why. If you really want to run Linux, a Thinkpad will probably be the best option.

Thanks. So the situation is different from before? Is the 2015 model currently still on sale better?

How do I know which models these numbers represent: 13,1, 13,2, 13,3, 14,1, 14,2, 14,3 ?

 

[MRrainer]

Thanks. So the situation is different from before? Is the 2015 model currently still on sale better?

How do I know which models these numbers represent: 13,1, 13,2, 13,3, 14,1, 14,2, 14,3 ?

You can download MacTracker. It's a pretty handy app.

 

[maflynn]

The latest MacBook's don't generally make great Linux machines. I'd refer you to something like https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux to see why. If you really want to run Linux, a Thinkpad will probably be the best option.

I've always had issues, but at least for my 2012 MBP, once I installed the proprietary nvidia drivers and installed a different wifi device driver things work well. The one thing with Linux (and windows) is that you lose some of the power saving abilities and your battery may not last as long.

 

[mgauss7]

Have been waiting for over 2.5 years with no productivity. Very bad for my career. During this time, just keep using my MBP 2010 17". Even after changing the HD to SSD and replacing the thermal paste, still have heat issue and noisy fan. Even just browsing the internet, the machine sounds like a jet engine. Everyday spending lots of time on macrumors hoping to hear news about Apple releasing a new MBP with improved keyboard. Nothing has happened. This causes lots of stress, anger, depression and frustration. Rather than going out to make new friends, just keep checking my phone for suitable replacement of MBP and news about the situation of the keyboard. We might as well have to wait until 2020. Apple does not care about the MBP line as the focus was iPad and now iPhone. Meanwhile, cannot find a PC manufacturer that offers good after sales support and reliable laptop. Windows laptops with 8th gen CPU all seem to suffer from heat, noisy fan and thermal issues. Heard that I need a laptop over 2kg to avoid seeing these issues. Tried to build a DIY workstation but half of the components were DOA. Considered to buy the cheapest MBP 13" nTB model yesterday to leave the waiting game and heard about the new repairing notes. Never have such a bad purchase experience before. TC really knows how to sc*ew up long term customer. How to break out of this waiting hell?

Blow cold air from the AC onto your laptop.

 

[Kingcr]

I've always had issues, but at least for my 2012 MBP, once I installed the proprietary nvidia drivers and installed a different wifi device driver things work well. The one thing with Linux (and windows) is that you lose some of the power saving abilities and your battery may not last as long.

This is true. To date, things have generally improved over time as the community finds ways to support Apple’s proprietary / uncommon hardware. For example, when Apple moved the webcam from the USB bus to PCIe, it took a while for a driver to become available and it’s still not perfect. Same thing with the driver for the latest WiFi chipset. I do fear that things will only get worse in future though as Apple introduces more black-box functionality implemented in their T series chips. For example, I doubt Touch ID will ever work (I hope I’m wrong).

 

[hajime]

Today my MBP 2010 lags a lot sometimes. Got to leave this waiting hell this week. Huawei told me that after the 1 year warranty, they will continue to provide support "if" they have the parts! Am I correct that Apple at least keep the parts for a few years? Razer Blade 15 has 6-7 hours of battery life and even with new heatsink design, it still has heat and noisy fan issues. Thankpad X1 Carbon Gen 6 and T series also have heat, noisy fan and thermal throttling issues. So, it looks like getting a MBP with Apple Care and hope Apple will replace for a new model if the keyboard fails multiple times is the best option. Any opinion?

 

[Kingcr]

Am I correct that Apple at least keep the parts for a few years

Apple services Macs for 5 years after they stop manufacturing the device, so yes.

Any opinion?

Yes. Buy the machine that allows you to do what you need to do. What exactly you do, I'm still not sure. You've written about needing to run Windows and Linux but, based on the questions you've asked in other threads, I wonder how much of a need this is.

So, as a last attempt to help you through this:
1. What do you want the machine to do (i.e. what do you want to do with it)?
2. Have you used Windows 10? If so, do you like it enough for it to be your primary operating system and are you prepared to invest the time to transition over to it?
3. Have you used Linux? Why do you want to use Linux?
4. Which operating system are you most productive in?
5. Is it necessary for you to double or triple boot, or will you be fine virtualising other operating systems you want/need?

Once you're very, very clear about your software needs, then we'll be in a position to offer opinions on which hardware you should get.

 

[hajime]

Apple services Macs for 5 years after they stop manufacturing the device, so yes.



Yes. Buy the machine that allows you to do what you need to do. What exactly you do, I'm still not sure. You've written about needing to run Windows and Linux but, based on the questions you've asked in other threads, I wonder how much of a need this is.

So, as a last attempt to help you through this:
1. What do you want the machine to do (i.e. what do you want to do with it)?
2. Have you used Windows 10? If so, do you like it enough for it to be your primary operating system and are you prepared to invest the time to transition over to it?
3. Have you used Linux? Why do you want to use Linux?
4. Which operating system are you most productive in?
5. Is it necessary for you to double or triple boot, or will you be fine virtualising other operating systems you want/need?

Once you're very, very clear about your software needs, then we'll be in a position to offer opinions on which hardware you should get.

1. Basic productivity, programming, CAD, Matlab/Simulink, presentations, lots of writing and CUDA computations. In the past, the MBP 15" series could do all I wanted but Apple removed Nvidia GPU from their product line. Together with the keyboard, they screwed up my workflow. In the near future, I may need to do computational intensive CUDA computation It would be nice if the MBP had Nvidia GPU so I could use it for basic testings and codings but Apple no longer uses Nvidia GPU. Even I pay top money to get the max 15" MBP 2017, it does not help as it uses ATI GPU. There may be compatibility issues connecting the MBP to an eGPU and run Linux. So, perhaps I will need an ultraportable and a high-end Linux workstation.
2. I only used Windows 10 in stores. Not enough to decide if I like it or not.
3. I have used Linux for many years. I need it for my work. Also read that unlike previous models of MBP, there are some compatibility issues between 2017 MBP with Linux. For example, the wifi of the 15" model does not work. Both 13" and 15" have suspension/wake issues, etc. If I choose the 13" MBP and shut it down whenever I close the lid, that may be OK. If I choose the 15" model for larger screen estate, I will need to buy an adapter to connect an USB wifi dongle to the laptop. Thanks to Apple for removing all legacy USB ports.
4. Mac OS
5. It is important to have triple boots. Virtualising other OS is not desirable as I need native speed. This is one reason I have not bought Windows laptop as I am not sure about Hackintosh compatibility. Another reason is laptops with 8th gen CPU all seem to have heat, fan, thermal throttling issues.

About the Matebook X Pro: I expressed concerns to Huawei about repairing after the 1-year warranty period. They just told me "we will provide repairs as long as we have the parted needed for the repair." So, if they have a small production and run out of parts, my investment will be wasted?

 

[Kingcr]

1. Basic productivity, programming, CAD, Matlab/Simulink, presentations, lots of writing and CUDA computations. In the past, the MBP 15" series could do all I wanted but Apple removed Nvidia GPU from their product line. Together with the keyboard, they screwed up my workflow. In the near future, I may need to do computational intensive CUDA computation It would be nice if the MBP had Nvidia GPU so I could use it for basic testings and codings but Apple no longer uses Nvidia GPU. Even I pay top money to get the max 15" MBP 2017, it does not help as it uses ATI GPU. There may be compatibility issues connecting the MBP to an eGPU and run Linux. So, perhaps I will need an ultraportable and a high-end Linux workstation.
2. I only used Windows 10 in stores. Not enough to decide if I like it or not.
3. I have used Linux for many years. I need it for my work. Also read that unlike previous models of MBP, there are some compatibility issues between 2017 MBP with Linux. For example, the wifi of the 15" model does not work. Both 13" and 15" have suspension/wake issues, etc. If I choose the 13" MBP and shut it down whenever I close the lid, that may be OK. If I choose the 15" model for larger screen estate, I will need to buy an adapter to connect an USB wifi dongle to the laptop. Thanks to Apple for removing all legacy USB ports.
4. Mac OS
5. It is important to have triple boots. Virtualising other OS is not desirable as I need native speed. This is one reason I have not bought Windows laptop as I am not sure about Hackintosh compatibility. Another reason is laptops with 8th gen CPU all seem to have heat, fan, thermal throttling issues.

May I ask what you do for a living? Is the CUDA and Matlab type requirement work related or more of a hobby?

How much of your high performance workload needs to be portable?

How critical is macOS to you? What would you miss if it wasn’t available to you?
[doublepost=1529586381][/doublepost]Oh, and is this machine for work?

 

[hajime]

May I ask what you do for a living? Is the CUDA and Matlab type requirement work related or more of a hobby?

How much of your high performance workload needs to be portable?

How critical is macOS to you? What would you miss if it wasn’t available to you?
[doublepost=1529586381][/doublepost]Oh, and is this machine for work?

I am in R&D. Everything is work related. High performance workload could be sent to a DIY workstation so I guess for the laptop, quietness, lightweight and long battery life are more important features. If Apple did not remove the Nvidia GPU and replaced the excellent keyboard with that damn butterfly one, I would have bought a MBP.

In the past, I chose MacOS due to productivity. I have over 20 years of files under MacOs. Desirable if I could access those files anytime I want. Cloud is not an option as I don't have internet access all the time.

 

[mcpix]

The 2015 MBP with dedicated graphics was the machine you probably needed. These were available fairly frequently on the Apple Refurbished Store as recently as 6 months ago or occasionally from B&H new. That's what I did and I now have a great laptop with AppleCare+ through 2020. However, since that's no longer an option, I think your best bet is a new 2017. I also have a 2017 13" MBP and I've had zero issues with the keyboard. Of course, I highly recommend buying Applecare+ just in case you have any problems in the future.

 

[Kingcr]

I have over 20 years of files under MacOs. Desirable if I could access those files anytime I want.

Accessing them isn't the problem. The question is, what format are they in? Are we talking about fairly proprietary formats (like iWork Pages/Numbers/Keynote documents etc)? If so, would converting them be an issue for you, and would you accept things like formatting changes (for example - I have no idea what file types you are referring to exactly)?
[doublepost=1529588144][/doublepost]

The 2015 MBP with dedicated graphics was the machine you probably needed. These were available fairly frequently on the Apple Refurbished Store as recently as 6 months ago or occasionally from B&H new. That's what I did and I now have a great laptop with AppleCare+ through 2020. However, since that's no longer an option, I think your best bet is a new 2017. I also have a 2017 13" MBP and I've had zero issues with the keyboard. Of course, I highly recommend buying Applecare+ just in case you have any problems in the future.

Except that the 2015 MBP doesn't have an nVidia graphics card.

 

[hajime]

The 2015 MBP with dedicated graphics was the machine you probably needed. These were available fairly frequently on the Apple Refurbished Store as recently as 6 months ago or occasionally from B&H new. That's what I did and I now have a great laptop with AppleCare+ through 2020. However, since that's no longer an option, I think your best bet is a new 2017. I also have a 2017 13" MBP and I've had zero issues with the keyboard. Of course, I highly recommend buying Applecare+ just in case you have any problems in the future.

From the benchmarks, it looks like 13" 2017 MBP is faster than the 2015 MBP in single core tests but in multiple cores tests, it is the other way around.

Is it true that for the 13" model, the i7 dual cpu upgrade is not worth?

 

[Kingcr]

From the benchmarks, it looks like 13" 2017 MBP is faster than the 2015 MBP in single core tests but in multiple cores tests, it is the other way around.

Which makes perfect sense.

Is it true that for the 13" model, the i7 dual cpu upgrade is not worth?

For "normal" usage, it's probably not worth it.

Accessing them isn't the problem. The question is, what format are they in? Are we talking about fairly proprietary formats (like iWork Pages/Numbers/Keynote documents etc)? If so, would converting them be an issue for you, and would you accept things like formatting changes (for example - I have no idea what file types you are referring to exactly)?

Please can you answer this.

 

[hajime]

Which makes perfect sense.



For "normal" usage, it's probably not worth it.



Please can you answer this.

What would be the case that i7 dual is worth?

Besides some Keynote files, nothing in specific. Windows may have problems in searching the files due to some long file names and Japanese file name,

 

[Kingcr]

What would be the case that i7 dual is worth?

When you absolutely want to get the most out of the platform. You'd see better performance in things that max out the CPU, for example rendering, compiling and so on. "Worth it" is subjective though - that's cost vs benefit. For normal users that don't do these sort of things (or don't do them often), it's probably not worth it.

Windows may have problems in searching the files due to some long file names and Japanese file name

But you haven't used Windows except in a store? Why not set up a virtual machine and try it out?

Besides some Keynote files

Are you prepared to move to Powerpoint?



I think at this point, IMHO:

1. Because you are doing work-related functions, you need to forget about Hackintosh and eGPU because of reliability.

2. Because you want to do high-performance CUDA and you don't mind things being stationary on this side of things, you'd probably be better served by a high-power desktop workstation for your Linux (and possibly Windows) needs.

3. I wouldn't recommend switching to Windows as your primary productivity environment without first trying it out. So, I'd recommend a new MBP as your portable machine unless you put the effort into actually trying to do everything you need to do on Windows and are sure you're fine with it.

Good luck!

 

[hajime]

When you absolutely want to get the most out of the platform. You'd see better performance in things that max out the CPU, for example rendering, compiling and so on. "Worth it" is subjective though - that's cost vs benefit. For normal users that don't do these sort of things (or don't do them often), it's probably not worth it.



But you haven't used Windows except in a store? Why not set up a virtual machine and try it out?



Are you prepared to move to Powerpoint?



I think at this point, IMHO:

1. Because you are doing work-related functions, you need to forget about Hackintosh and eGPU because of reliability.

2. Because you want to do high-performance CUDA and you don't mind things being stationary on this side of things, you'd probably be better served by a high-power desktop workstation for your Linux (and possibly Windows) needs.

3. I wouldn't recommend switching to Windows as your primary productivity environment without first trying it out. So, I'd recommend a new MBP as your portable machine unless you put the effort into actually trying to do everything you need to do on Windows and are sure you're fine with it.

Good luck!

I read that the performance increase is less than 15%. If the keyboard were like the old one, I don't mind paying. With the butterfly keyboard, don't want to invest too much.

Reliability is an issue. If I go for ThinkPad P series and Hackintosh it and it fails, it could be big problem.

Too bad the current MBP is not "new" but over a year old. Laptops with 8th GenCPU have heat issue unless they are over 2kg.

 

[MRrainer]

FYI: My coworker is in the process of returning a Dell 15" XPS (8th generation Core i)- he said he never saw a Windows-laptop blue screen so often in such a short time.

If it was a MBP, it would be on the front-page of every tech-blog. But Dell - nobody cares.

 

[Tech198]

Have been waiting for over 2.5 years with no productivity. Very bad for my career. During this time, just keep using my MBP 2010 17". Even after changing the HD to SSD and replacing the thermal paste, still have heat issue and noisy fan. Even just browsing the internet, the machine sounds like a jet engine. Everyday spending lots of time on macrumors hoping to hear news about Apple releasing a new MBP with improved keyboard. Nothing has happened. This causes lots of stress, anger, depression and frustration. Rather than going out to make new friends, just keep checking my phone for suitable replacement of MBP and news about the situation of the keyboard. We might as well have to wait until 2020. Apple does not care about the MBP line as the focus was iPad and now iPhone. Meanwhile, cannot find a PC manufacturer that offers good after sales support and reliable laptop. Windows laptops with 8th gen CPU all seem to suffer from heat, noisy fan and thermal issues. Heard that I need a laptop over 2kg to avoid seeing these issues. Tried to build a DIY workstation but half of the components were DOA. Considered to buy the cheapest MBP 13" nTB model yesterday to leave the waiting game and heard about the new repairing notes. Never have such a bad purchase experience before. TC really knows how to sc*ew up long term customer. How to break out of this waiting hell?

Apple seems to have us 'locked in'..

eg. They have best support over PC manufactures, but they are let down by the product cycles.

Provide some positive thing customers actually want (support), then once u bag 'em, you can do whatever the hell you want to stuff the users round because you already have overcome their main problem..

It's good to be a Apple user

 

[hajime]

Got to make the purchase today as there is no news about the MBP 2018.

I tried the 2015 MBP yesterday. Of course it has a nice keyboard but only Thunderbolt 2 and no GPU. In single thread applications, it is slower than the 13" 2017 model according to some benchmarks.

So, the strategy is to buy the 13" or 15" 2017 model and use it to get work done and hope that if the keyboard fails multiple time, Apple would give me a replacement of a new model when it comes out?

 

[MRrainer]

That should do. Just make sure you get Apple Care.
The replacement-policy is - AFAIK - something that is often handled on a store-by-store basis.
But that may have changed since I read reports about this.

I think this should do well. I'd get one of those Radware keyboard-covers and never, ever eat in front of it ;-)