I do not want macOS on iPad. Ever.

[Kal Madda]

Cool, yeah six people. Tell them to post videos of using it with power software. Tell them to post detailed information including temperatures from the sensor and the display and the case.

There's the challenge. If it can be done with UTM as you claim then show me an iPad Pro with a macOS VM running a big After Effects project on real hardware and show us an unedited video with the thermal readings.

There are more than 6 people as well, you’re acting like you want to get a rise out of me or something. It’s not going to work.

Also, I never claimed VMs running a big After Effects project or Blender would run great on iPads. I don’t know. But many people don’t need a VM to access resource heavy software like After Effects, but for proprietary business software that’s Windows only, or for coding and software development. Neither of these are typically incredibly resource taxing softwares. Assuming the only use for VMs is really resource heavy software is a logical fallacy. Many people just use VMs to access lighter softwares.

Again, you are the one making the claims that VMs can’t work well on the iPad. The burden of evidence falls on you. I have already demonstrated an example of a VM app that could run fine on the iPad. You have not demonstrated any evidence for your claims.

 

[stinksroundhere]

Also, I never claimed VMs running a big After Effects project or Blender would run great on iPads.

Then you have forgotten one whole page of talk where it was mentioned over and over again that there are a myriad of different types of users and many apps can be so energy intensive that they can harm a device like an iPad.

You yourself acknowledged that on the previous page.

You have not been consistent, you have wasted time, you failed the challenge I have set. It's time to be realistic and just ask for a better iPadOS. It's literally in the name of the system 'operating system for iPad'.

When you get your priorities straight you can achieve great things. Asking for unreasonable things is a waste of energy. Asking for stuff that benefits every type of user is a great use of your time.

 

[Rainbow Apple]

I think the OP's both right and wrong. OP's right that simply putting a desktop OS onto a tablet would make it a bad tablet. However, he's wrong here:

Even if you add the keyboard stand an iPad will never become a MacBook.

Some background: I have a Surface (Microsoft's tablet) which runs both Windows and Android. My Surface, with a keyboard-mouse atatchment, is a nice ultra-portable laptop! A desktop OS (such as Windows) is well-suited for it, when using it as a laptop. But when I want to use it as a tablet, I boot up Android!

Give the iPad a good keyboard-mouse atatchment, make MacOS able to run on it, and it'll be fine as a laptop. MacOS won't be fine if you want to use an iPad as a tablet, but that's what iOS is for.

 

[Kal Madda]

Then you have forgotten one whole page of talk where it was mentioned over and over again that there are a myriad of different types of users and many apps can be so energy intensive that they can harm a device like an iPad.

You yourself acknowledged that on the previous page.

You have not been consistent, you have wasted time, you failed the challenge I have set. It's time to be realistic and just ask for a better iPadOS. It's literally in the name of the system 'operating system for iPad'.

When you get your priorities straight you can achieve great things. Asking for unreasonable things is a waste of energy. Asking for stuff that benefits every type of user is a great use of your time.

A. I never said VMs are useful for all workflows.

B. I never said simply running VMs would ruin an iPad.

C. I’m not beholden to accept your “challenges”. And I have been consistent, if you read my comments in this thread, I have never opposed VM apps being available for iPadOS.

D. I’ve never opposed the option or inclusion of third-party VM apps in the iPad App Store in this entire discussion. I have repeatedly said VM apps would be useful for some.

E. I have promoted improving iPadOS in this thread if you read my prior comments here. I don’t think Apple should natively install macOS on the iPad. I think Apple should improve iPadOS.

F. I’m not asking for unreasonable things. I’m saying that I believe allowing third-party VM apps in the iPad App Store would be beneficial for iPadOS (I would consider than improving iPadOS by expanding the kinds of apps that can be made available for it). Whether they do or not, it won’t affect me much, because I’m happy with the current state of iPadOS and use an iPad as my primary computer. But I think it would be helpful for others, so I think it would be good to make available for those who could benefit from it.

 

[Arctic Moose]

The key words you used are 'fans blasting' which the iPad cannot do.

No, the key words I used were "too hot to touch".

Also, no fan in the MacBook Air, which will attempt to run anything you throw at it.

A VM app on iPadOS would be throttled to keep the device safe just like Final Cut Pro, Geekbench, Resolve, Lightroom or Genshin Impact currently are.

That's why your iPhone will display a warning when the device gets warm and then the screen will automatically dim and CPU throttle a lot.

I have routinely used my iPhone in a windshield mount over the last two years where it frequently gives up and turns off due to excessive heat. When that happens I just leave it there with the sun beating down on it. The screen looks just like it did on day one, except for all the scratches.

 

[purplerainpurplerain]

A VM app on iPadOS would be throttled to keep the device safe just like Final Cut Pro, Geekbench, Resolve, Lightroom or Genshin Impact currently are.

Man acknowledges iPad throttles with some iPad apps asks for bigger Mac software to throttle it harder.

 

[Kal Madda]

Man acknowledges iPad throttles with some iPad apps asks for bigger Mac software to throttle it harder.

Man acknowledges VMs won’t run at full speed like a native system, asks for option to install a VM on his device because he needs one for some light software his business requires, etc.

 

[ericwn]

Man acknowledges iPad throttles with some iPad apps asks for bigger Mac software to throttle it harder.

Bring some data please rather than just FUD. A throttled M chip likely still runs circles around some not so distant intel configs.

 

[purplerainpurplerain]

Bring some data please rather than just FUD. A throttled M chip likely still runs circles around some not so distant intel configs.

Bring data what? I’m not the one claiming to run macOS Linux or whatever in a VM on iPads or even natively on bare metal iPad hardware.

Whoever is claiming to be able to do that, the onus is on them to provide the data. I saw a challenge earlier but it looks like the mods deleted the post or I lost the thread. The challenge asked them to post an unedited video of macOS running in vm on iPad with big CPU intensive After Effects or blender projects running.

 

[purplerainpurplerain]

Man acknowledges VMs won’t run at full speed like a native system, asks for option to install a VM on his device because he needs one for some light software his business requires, etc.

But you claim they can already do this “light software” in a side loaded UTM.

What is this “light software” that doesn’t have a native iPad app?

 

[Kal Madda]

Bring data what? I’m not the one claiming to run macOS Linux or whatever in a VM on iPads or even natively on bare metal iPad hardware.

Whoever is claiming to be able to do that, the onus is on them to provide the data. I saw a challenge earlier but it looks like the mods deleted the post or I lost the thread. The challenge asked them to post an unedited video of macOS running in vm on iPad with big CPU intensive After Effects or blender projects running.

VMs can run. See UTM. And that’s without Hypervisor, and without JIT, the addition of those would make VMs run faster and more efficiently. And nobody claimed that the iPad could run big After Effects or Blender projects in a VM on the iPad, that was something that commenter came up with off the top of their head. Most people I’ve seen use VMs don’t even use VMs on desktops for those kinds of things, so I don’t know why anyone would assume that that would be the only way that VMs on the iPad would be potentially beneficial or useful…

 

[purplerainpurplerain]

VMs can run. See UTM.

Your game is obvious.

If you think a 3 trillion dollar company if going to sabotage their own product line because of some misinformation and inconsistent flawed posts on the internet you should save your energy. They have security and research teams who know everyone’s IP address and locations so that they can tell what users want and if there is a misinfo campaign from competitors.

Almost every app you use collects user behavior telemetry data to see how you use apps and the os. Engineers and developers use that data to refine and bug fix their products.

They know that almost nobody wants a desktop OS on a tablet based on a lot of application data and web data they collect. That’s why developers around the world are busy on their iPad apps and there is not even one sign that they are working on making macOS apps tablet friendly.

Zbrush is coming out for iPadOS soon. They wouldn’t bother doing that if macOS could be run safely and smoothly on a tablet.

But anyway argue among yourselves I know you won’t stop until you get anyone opposing you suspended.

 

[Kal Madda]

But you claim they can already do this “light software” in a side loaded UTM.

What is this “light software” that doesn’t have a native iPad app?

For one, many businesses have in-house software that’s Windows only that is required. Mac users in these environments use VMs all the time to access these softwares. These are not generally super system intensive softwares. VMs would be very useful for these situations.

Also, on the topic of business software, the native Microsoft Office apps for iPadOS downright suck. They are missing critical features that are important for professional workflows. This could be fixed by Microsoft porting over more of these features, there’s not really any OS limitations that I’m aware of that prevent them from doing so, but in the meantime, a VM with the desktop Office apps could potentially solve some of these issues. The Office apps aren’t that terribly system intensive, so I wouldn’t expect they would run poorly in a VM with proper Hypervisor and JIT access on iPadOS.

 

[Kal Madda]

Your game is obvious.

If you think a 3 trillion dollar company if going to sabotage their own product line because of some misinformation and inconsistent flawed posts on the internet you should save your energy. They have security and research teams who know everyone’s IP address and locations so that they can tell what users want and if there is a misinfo campaign from competitors.

Almost every app you use collects user behavior telemetry data to see how you use apps and the os. Engineers and developers use that data to refine and bug fix their products.

They know that almost nobody wants a desktop OS on a tablet based on a lot of application data and web data they collect. That’s why developers around the world are busy on their iPad apps and there is not even one sign that they are working on making macOS apps tablet friendly.

Zbrush is coming out for iPadOS soon. They wouldn’t bother doing that if macOS could be run safely and smoothly on a tablet.

But anyway argue among yourselves I know you won’t stop until you get anyone opposing you suspended.

I think you’re making way too many assumptions here about my opinion and what I’m advocating for. I have repeatedly said that I don’t want macOS natively on iPadOS, and I’m happy with iPadOS on the iPad. I think that VM apps would be a useful improvement for iPadOS for some professional users. I don’t think macOS should replace iPadOS, and I don’t think macOS should be natively ported to the iPad by Apple at all. But I think VM apps would be a useful addition for many workflows on iPadOS. Also, I don’t think Apple’s sabotaging the iPad. That’s something I’ve never said or believed.

 

[Arctic Moose]

Man acknowledges iPad throttles with some iPad apps asks for bigger Mac software to throttle it harder.

Yeah, just like any Apple hardware. A MacBook Air will throttle harder than a Mac Pro under the same conditions. What's your point?

What is this “light software” that doesn’t have a native iPad app?

Apple Mail that can apply rules, and Apple Photos that can show smart albums, for starters. (Of course these features should have been in the native apps from the start, but that is a different discussion.)

But anyway argue among yourselves I know you won’t stop until you get anyone opposing you suspended.

Personally, I'll stop when I no longer have to carry multiple devices for basic functionality.

If you get yourself suspended in the process, that's fine with me.

 

[NEPOBABY]

I ran my 2010 MacBook Pro with its hot and noisy 2.66 GHz Core i7 almost exclusively in clamshell for years and years, with fans blasting, often too hot to touch.

The things you are saying don’t belong in an iPad discussion.

 

[NEPOBABY]

I don’t think macOS should replace iPadOS

It can’t anyway. It’s not a Mac. The names of the operating systems dictate what device they run on.

You will never have true root or full admin accounts on an iPad (or iPhone) and you can never have disk utilities for adding and removing partitions and the Files app will never clearly display system and library folders. All of those raise security risks and a large room for user error. Those stlll exist on desktop computers for legacy reasons but they should be ‘invisible’ by default if we truly want to break free from the wonky janky past.

 

[NEPOBABY]

Yeah, just like any Apple hardware. A MacBook Air will throttle harder than a Mac Pro under the same conditions. What's your point?

Those machines don’t have a display that can become hot because of a CPU behind it. Those machines don’t have a display that users rest their hands on and touch.

 

[Kal Madda]

It can’t anyway. It’s not a Mac. The names of the operating systems dictate what device they run on.

You will never have true root or full admin accounts on an iPad (or iPhone) and you can never have disk utilities for adding and removing partitions and the Files app will never clearly display system and library folders. All of those raise security risks and a large room for user error. Those stlll exist on desktop computers for legacy reasons but they should be ‘invisible’ by default if we truly want to break free from the wonky janky past.

And I don’t think any of those things are necessary to improve iPadOS. I am on the improve iPadOS camp. I don’t believe in trying to slap macOS onto iPad. But I do support adding more macOS features into iPadOS. And I think iPadOS could add an automatic toolkit like Catalyst for the iPad to be able to run Mac apps similarly to how macOS can run iPad apps.

 

[Arctic Moose]

The things you are saying don’t belong in an iPad discussion.

I believe they do when the iPad discussion is specifically about running macOS on it.

You will never have

V. I. R. T. U. A. L. I. Z. A. T. I. O. N.

Those machines don’t have a display that can become hot because of a CPU behind it. Those machines don’t have a display that users rest their hands on and touch.

MacBooks have a screen, and they can be run in clamshell mode, which people frequently do. The MacBook Air is fanless.

You can use an iPad with a mouse, keyboard and external monitor.

From a hardware perspective, a MacBook and an iPad can be configured and used so that there is practically no difference.

Besides, there has hardly been a barrage of complaints about screen defects on Microsoft Surface devices, has there?

This is what I am currently doing on my Mac.

I am not doing any exporting, transcoding, compiling or anything like that, but I am doing normal computer work in a bunch of different Mac apps, as well as Linux and Windows apps running virtualized. I believe I do tend to tax my computer a bit more than the average user.

I'm consuming on average 5-7W (which drops to around 3W in clamshell) with the occasional spike up to about 15W.

My fans haven't moved at all today, and it looks like they have been entirely inactive for the past 30 days.

Are you trying to tell me, with a straight face, that you think this workload would cause any issues at all on an M4 iPad?

 

[bill-p]

So here's the challenge.

Load the newest macOS in UTM on your iPad, load up big projects into After Effects, Blender or load up an 8GB language model in Ollama (if your iPad has enough RAM). Use them regularly, film the usage for evidence and show us the system temperatures. Then show us what your iPad's display looks like after a two months because with excessive and regular heat under a display LEDs, LCDs and OLEDs always get damaged, warped or discoloured.

Hypervisor doesn't allow access to dedicated encoder/decoder or... quite obviously, dedicated neural processors. All of those will need to be virtualized if they should be exposed to the host system, and then the host system also needs to have the corresponding drivers.

So... as of this point, none of the above things you mentioned can actually even be accomplished at all even when Apple allows VMs to run.

 

[Kahnforever]

Wait. Before you start commenting that I'm stupid. Just read on...

I agree that iPadOS (in its current form) is a massive limiting factor for the iPad. But I don't think that 'just release macOS on iPad' will be the answer. MacOS is entirely designed for trackpad and keyboard use. Icons, fonts and UI elements are too small to use with touch alone. And the iPad is still a primary touch device, and it should be. An iPad is not a MacBook without keyboard. Even if you add the keyboard stand an iPad will never become a MacBook.

Trying to force macOS onto iPad is just beyond stupid. And in the end it will hurt both iPad and mac users. Because Apple would either just have to change the UI of macOS to fit with touch input or just stick the terrible touch controls onto iPad. And these scenarios basically copy what Microsoft did with Windows 8 and Windows 10.

With Windows 8 they, Microsoft, tried to force an iPad-like (tablet friendly) UI upon everyone who used it. By making the start menu full screen only, removing the start button entirely and opening most apps in full screen. Also they made all UI elements 3-4x the size they were in Windows 7. This UI was very popular with Surface (Pro) users and basically allowed them "full Windows on an iPad-like device". But alienating everyone who did not use a tablet. Windows 8 quickly became the most hated Windows version since Vista for most PC users.

This forced Microsoft to do a 180 and drastically change things with Windows 10. Which almost entirely ditched the Metro/tablet UI and brought back the Start menu. Also UI elements were reduced in size again and Apps didn't force a full screen anymore. Which made it a very compelling OS for desktop / laptop users. But it made it a lot worse for tablet users, and here we also saw a steady decline in Surface (tablet) users. But it did also have some lingering issues from Windows 8 like the new Settings screen and the less than useable 'metro' styled Apps. Stuff most power users still disable these days with Windows 11.

So in the end, forcing desktop Windows upon a tablet was worse for both the tablet AND the desktop users. And sure Apple could port the UI of iPadOS to only an iPad version of macOS. But that is basically already what iPadOS is. And it would require all mac-only software to be redesigned before it would work on iPad.

My solution: improve iPadOS. With stuff like Stage manager and pro apps. Allow JIT compilation. And release XCode on iPad Pro. And sure, fully allow pro users to install any app from any source. But keep the primary focus on touch controls with the current optional keyboard and trackpad support.

Edit: later in the topic I also talk about the possibility to run mac apps on iPad like you can run iOS/iPadOS apps on Apple Silicon Macs. Which would also be a useful solution.

macOS has no business on an iPad. Agreed.

 

[Kahnforever]

I believe they do when the iPad discussion is specifically about running macOS on it.



V. I. R. T. U. A. L. I. Z. A. T. I. O. N.



MacBooks have a screen, and they can be run in clamshell mode, which people frequently do. The MacBook Air is fanless.

You can use an iPad with a mouse, keyboard and external monitor.

From a hardware perspective, a MacBook and an iPad can be configured and used so that there is practically no difference.

Besides, there has hardly been a barrage of complaints about screen defects on Microsoft Surface devices, has there?

This is what I am currently doing on my Mac.

View attachment 2384969

I am not doing any exporting, transcoding, compiling or anything like that, but I am doing normal computer work in a bunch of different Mac apps, as well as Linux and Windows apps running virtualized. I believe I do tend tax my computer a bit more than the average user.

I'm consuming on average 5-7W (which drops to around 3W in clamshell) with the occasional spike up to about 15W.

View attachment 2384971

My fans haven't moved at all today, and it looks like they have been entirely inactive for the past 30 days.

View attachment 2384970

Are you trying to tell me, with a straight face, that you think this workload would cause any issues at all on an M4 iPad?

I have another thread on this topic. These discussions get derailed by erroneous theatrics. The main reason why the iPad will never be a Mac is because it’s a tablet. And the reason a Mac won’t be an iPad is because it’s not a tablet.

Bottom line: iPad is designed touch first, Macs are not.

When it comes to heat, under load, iPads run 2-3 degrees C hotter than a MBA. MBA and other Macs have better thermal envelopes that can distribute and radiate heat better than the iPad.

 

[Arctic Moose]

The main reason why the iPad will never be a Mac is because it’s a tablet. And the reason a Mac won’t be an iPad is because it’s not a tablet.

The iPod wasn’t a video player. Until it was.

The iPad didn’t have stylus support. Until it did.

Macs don’t support touch. Until they do.

Not only is this a non-argument, it doesn’t even mean anything since the categories are not narrowly defined.

When it comes to heat, under load, iPads run 2-3 degrees C hotter than a MBA. MBA and other Macs have better thermal envelopes that can distribute and radiate heat better than the iPad.

Even if this is true, it is entirely I. R. R. E. L. E. V. A. N. T for this discussion.

Did you not even read what you quoted, in this post? A more than casual workload on macOS hovers around 5W. This is NOTHING for an iPad.

Final Cut Pro, JavaScript and GPU-intense games should all be banned from the iPad if your logic is applied consistently, and macOS shouldn’t be allowed on the MacBook Air because the Mac Pro handles heat so much more effectively.

There are zero rational technical reasons to not allow macOS on an iPad. One could argue performance, but considering Apple still sold a Mac with a spinning disk in 2021, that argument doesn’t hold up very well.

 

[ericwn]

I have another thread on this topic. These discussions get derailed by erroneous theatrics. The main reason why the iPad will never be a Mac is because it’s a tablet. And the reason a Mac won’t be an iPad is because it’s not a tablet.

Bottom line: iPad is designed touch first, Macs are not.

When it comes to heat, under load, iPads run 2-3 degrees C hotter than a MBA. MBA and other Macs have better thermal envelopes that can distribute and radiate heat better than the iPad.

Post 245 would like to have a word.