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I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but...
- Thread starter dh2005
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the other side of having a mac , people respect you more , as even as i only have a iMac g3 and a eMac on my desk ..people say wow you must do well in your job to be able to afford a Mac
ok mine are used and at least 4 years old , but i just happen to love their design and osx ,
ok you could argue i could get the dell vostro all in one
and hack osx on it and it would run circles around all of my mac's even if i could combine their processing power ,without doubt , and would cost not more
but that would just not be the same
i think own a mac is not something you just buy with money
a mac is somehow like a pet , you just love it , cuddle it fondle it and it makes you smile and you dont look what it cant do , instead you are happy about everything it can do
ok mine are used and at least 4 years old , but i just happen to love their design and osx ,
ok you could argue i could get the dell vostro all in one
and hack osx on it and it would run circles around all of my mac's even if i could combine their processing power ,without doubt , and would cost not more
but that would just not be the same
i think own a mac is not something you just buy with money
a mac is somehow like a pet , you just love it , cuddle it fondle it and it makes you smile and you dont look what it cant do , instead you are happy about everything it can do
I'd say "commodity parts," not cheap parts. They're cheap enough, which is why everyone uses them. As I stated,. the design (ergonomics) is nice, and the OS is slightly better. That's all.
I wonder how much it costs Apple to have the pieces and parts put together in the PRC? Two dollars?
Having come from the home-built PC world to being a Mac convert shortly after the switch to Intel processors 4 years ago, I can tell you that for me it is about the whole package. Of course, there is the physical aspect. The iMac is not just a computer, it is a work of art design-wise. It has the giant screen and the small footprint. It's next to silent. It's got OS X, of course, but also the ability to run Windows 7 natively and fast. It's also got the ability to run Windows virtually and in realtime from inside OS X. It's got the tight integration of hardware and software. There is no hassling with device drivers, etc. All of that hair-pulling is in the past.
Does all of this come at a premium cost? Yes, and alot of people (myself included) consider it a price worth paying. Mac prices have come down with each successive generation.
I know you were using the Mac Pro as an example, and I've no experience with one. I do think, though, that all things considered the 27-inch iMacs are actually priced quite competitively. Could Apple reduce the profit margin? Probably, yes. But their brisk sales probably don't give them any impetus to do so.
Does all of this come at a premium cost? Yes, and alot of people (myself included) consider it a price worth paying. Mac prices have come down with each successive generation.
I know you were using the Mac Pro as an example, and I've no experience with one. I do think, though, that all things considered the 27-inch iMacs are actually priced quite competitively. Could Apple reduce the profit margin? Probably, yes. But their brisk sales probably don't give them any impetus to do so.
Apple's awesome designs just work. They really got the trick now about making a good computer and made it more than just the sum of it's parts.
They actually take into account the heat and noise of the different component and can deliver something that is usable by professional.
Why do you think Mac are used in all professional music studios? They are quiet and don't overheat - You cannot create music seriously on a PC, the whole system noise will leak in your mics and you'll never know when some crack and pop might appear in your recording because of some component incompatibility. I'm more than willing to lose 20% of performance if my computer runs quiet and is stable.
Mac are not about games anyway, they are about creating an experience which is proper for creation, work and multimedia.
I find it hilarious that people complain about the iMac 27" video card. It can freaking run Crysis at over 30fps in super HD, this is quite good for a computer which priority is not gaming at all.
Why do you lack consideration for the 27" monitor? It's way better than any 30" monitors on the market selling for over 1500-2000$? What about the artists who actually designed the whole thing and the amazing coders behind os X? Check the benchmarks, the processor speed don't mean jack if your running a crappy system like windows, the iMac beats some windows boxes 16 cores.
The iMac is an awesome deal, all professionals and teachers I know at my university are knowledgeable enough to see the amazing potential this machine has for the price.
Buy yourself a plastic Dell with equal component and the non-LED 30" screen and you'll end up near 3000$ for an ugly black box.
They actually take into account the heat and noise of the different component and can deliver something that is usable by professional.
Why do you think Mac are used in all professional music studios? They are quiet and don't overheat - You cannot create music seriously on a PC, the whole system noise will leak in your mics and you'll never know when some crack and pop might appear in your recording because of some component incompatibility. I'm more than willing to lose 20% of performance if my computer runs quiet and is stable.
Mac are not about games anyway, they are about creating an experience which is proper for creation, work and multimedia.
I find it hilarious that people complain about the iMac 27" video card. It can freaking run Crysis at over 30fps in super HD, this is quite good for a computer which priority is not gaming at all.
I've seen nothing in the three Macs I've owned that indicate a better "build" quality than, say, the old built-by-IBM thinkpad I owned.
My iMac 27" model retailed for $2000 or so. Let's assume the screen in the iMac has a retail "value" of about $1000. If that were the case, there's nothing else in the machine that adds up to the other $1000 -
1. A terabyte hard drive is under $100 these days
2. top of the line motherboards, certain MBs more capable than the iMac's,.
are about $150
3. Four gigs of RAM? $100
4. Modest video card? $125
5. "Case"? Under $100
6. CPU? Under 200
Again, I'm not knocking the Apple product...I'm just saying there's really nothing that special about them, hardware-wise.
Oh...and that 27" iMac screen? For $1000, I can buy all manner of computer screens that will outperform it in many ways, without the yellowstains and flickering.
Why do you lack consideration for the 27" monitor? It's way better than any 30" monitors on the market selling for over 1500-2000$? What about the artists who actually designed the whole thing and the amazing coders behind os X? Check the benchmarks, the processor speed don't mean jack if your running a crappy system like windows, the iMac beats some windows boxes 16 cores.
The iMac is an awesome deal, all professionals and teachers I know at my university are knowledgeable enough to see the amazing potential this machine has for the price.
Buy yourself a plastic Dell with equal component and the non-LED 30" screen and you'll end up near 3000$ for an ugly black box.
I bought an iMac 27 because I got a limited spac on my desk (Actually I did buy 21.5 model with C2D 3.33 but, it was still not powerful enough for my software jobs, and also has the yellow issue, so I returned it ) and I needed an All-in-One computer.
At the moment, I could not find any All-in-One Pcs (Dell. Sony, Lenovo, HP) offering the same specs as iMac 27 with the same price or closer. Some like Lenovo, and Sony's All-in-One Pcs offer the same price but lower specs and some like HP, are even more expensive but come with the lower specs (See some example below)
So, I think in case of All-in-one computer, iMac is the best in term of money/performance
For example
HP 23inch All-in-One: $2,547 - $390 discount = $2184 without tax
Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64-bit edit
Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo processor T9800 [2.93GHz, 6MB L2, 1066 FSB] edit
Memory 4GB DDR3-1066MHz SDRAM [2 DIMMs] edit
Hard drive 1TB 5400 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive edit
1920x1080 display with 1GB NVIDIA GeForce GT230M,
Primary optical drive Slot-load SuperMulti DVD Burner edit
Networking Wireless-N LAN card and Bluetooth(R ) edit
Keyboard and Mouse HP low-profile, wireless keyboard and HP wireless optical mouse edit
Sony 24inch All-in-One : $ 1999 without Tax
Core™ 2 Quad Q8400S processor (2.66GHz1).
Genuine Microsoft® Windows® 7 Home Premium.
6GB of system memory. up to 12GB
1TB (7200rpm) hard disk drive. MAX 1 TB
A widescreen display 1920 x 1080 with NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 240M GPU and 1GB of dedicated video RAM.
Bluray-Rom
At the moment, I could not find any All-in-One Pcs (Dell. Sony, Lenovo, HP) offering the same specs as iMac 27 with the same price or closer. Some like Lenovo, and Sony's All-in-One Pcs offer the same price but lower specs and some like HP, are even more expensive but come with the lower specs (See some example below)
So, I think in case of All-in-one computer, iMac is the best in term of money/performance
For example
HP 23inch All-in-One: $2,547 - $390 discount = $2184 without tax
Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64-bit edit
Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo processor T9800 [2.93GHz, 6MB L2, 1066 FSB] edit
Memory 4GB DDR3-1066MHz SDRAM [2 DIMMs] edit
Hard drive 1TB 5400 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive edit
1920x1080 display with 1GB NVIDIA GeForce GT230M,
Primary optical drive Slot-load SuperMulti DVD Burner edit
Networking Wireless-N LAN card and Bluetooth(R ) edit
Keyboard and Mouse HP low-profile, wireless keyboard and HP wireless optical mouse edit
Sony 24inch All-in-One : $ 1999 without Tax
Core™ 2 Quad Q8400S processor (2.66GHz1).
Genuine Microsoft® Windows® 7 Home Premium.
6GB of system memory. up to 12GB
1TB (7200rpm) hard disk drive. MAX 1 TB
A widescreen display 1920 x 1080 with NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 240M GPU and 1GB of dedicated video RAM.
Bluray-Rom
Ok. I get your point. I feel actually pretty much the same way.... Apple does a truly excellent job with packaging and creating an aura of uniqueness around their products. And I do like the aesthetics of their products and the stability and performance of Unix-based OS. But the innards are nothing special.
Uh, no you can't. It is now selling for $1050. And a all in one is not sitting on the ground. With a Mac you pay for the design as well, not only what is in the machine. And no it's not 'way cheaper'. If at all. Go ahead and build me a 'PC' in your next post with the cost of each part with a screen on par with the 27 inch imac. I guarantee it will come close to the cost of the 27 inch imac.
And remember you get what you pay for.
As far as being a "bargain' look a few posts up for a comparison.
Some of you just don't get it. What makes a Mac a "Mac' is not just the "parts' in the computer. Its the design as well, what that design is made of (Glass and Aluminum) with the most stable most advanced OS on the planet. No drivers, no registry cleaners, no virus software to have to worry about. It just works. And the software that would cost you "hundreds' of dollars extra on a competitors machine come 'standard' on a Mac. It's the whole package.
How about adding that 'price' in with the hardware.
one reason a lot of manufacturers produce in china ,is the chinese environmental laws which are and thats very optimistic only existing in a book , the workforce is underpaid average income annually is below 4000 british pound for a industrial worker , the rest lives just above the poverty line which is set by china at about 70 british pound annually income !!!
and about 14 million people in china live below that line , but they are always smiling
and corruption is normal a few do profit from foreign investors
so my guess is the screen you value at about 1000 dollar costs about 200 to produce in china if not less ,so i guess the whole iMac cost inclusive putting it all together packing it and shipping it to your door less then 700 dollar , the rest you pay is pure profit and some taxes
same for other manufaturers , ok others make like dell profit through high quantities
and about 14 million people in china live below that line , but they are always smiling
and corruption is normal a few do profit from foreign investors
so my guess is the screen you value at about 1000 dollar costs about 200 to produce in china if not less ,so i guess the whole iMac cost inclusive putting it all together packing it and shipping it to your door less then 700 dollar , the rest you pay is pure profit and some taxes
same for other manufaturers , ok others make like dell profit through high quantities
Why should they be "not about games"? They have all the gaming potential in the World; a beautiful screen, a quality mouse and keyboard, a quick hard drive... excuse me for saying so, but this sounds like Mac apologism, to me.
Crysis is more than two years old, and 30 frames per second is not a particularly staggering framerate. Thus, with all due respect, your observations do not impress me. When spending a lot of money on a computer, I want to know what it can do two years into the future; not two years into the past.
It's sort of hard to tell by that whether you're arguing for or against the iMac as a gaming machine with that shpiel. lol
Anyway, obviously Macs are not for gamers. That is not to say that Macs can't be used to play games and quite respectably. They are not gaming machines, however. The slim all-in-one design of the case is not conducive to the cooling requirements of a gaming PC. The Magic Mouse is not a "quality" gaming mouse in anyone's universe. The iMac is not marketed to hardcore gamers and hardcore gamers have no interest in it for gaming.
What sort of argument is that? There is something wrong with the iMac because it can't keep up with dedicated gaming PCs that play the latest games at high frame rates? Those PCs also tend to be big, ugly beasts that sound like wind tunnels.
Incidentally, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 came out about 2 weeks after the 27-inch iMac and I play it at native (2550x1440), all max settings (no AA but who needs it at that resolution anyway?) in Windows 7 Boot Camp and it's smooth as the skin on a baby's behind. Oh, and I'll take 30fps in Crysis too. It's an all-in-one computer not a gaming rig.
Please don't misunderstand me. If all I wanted was a gaming computer, I wouldn't be looking at the iMac. It has plenty of features and charm that an equivalent-spec PC doesn't have, which is principally why I want one.
Playing games "respectably" is fine. I'm not asking the iMac to win a face-off with an Alienware desktop (those things are butt-ugly, by the way...). However, my initial complaint was that an A-list graphics card wasn't available to anyone who wanted to buy one. At no point have I suggested that all iMacs should come equipped for gaming; I know full well that most people don't want that capability.
But some people do. Such as me. I want the crisp, clean, elegant iMac experience for my productivity software; but I also want to be able to let-loose on some modern games occasionally. Not an outrageous request. Any anybody who says that it is... well, they're taking their defence of the iMac range a step too far, in my opinon.
Playing games "respectably" is fine. I'm not asking the iMac to win a face-off with an Alienware desktop (those things are butt-ugly, by the way...). However, my initial complaint was that an A-list graphics card wasn't available to anyone who wanted to buy one. At no point have I suggested that all iMacs should come equipped for gaming; I know full well that most people don't want that capability.
But some people do. Such as me. I want the crisp, clean, elegant iMac experience for my productivity software; but I also want to be able to let-loose on some modern games occasionally. Not an outrageous request. Any anybody who says that it is... well, they're taking their defence of the iMac range a step too far, in my opinon.
30 frames per second is not really a lot ..i guess i could get that amount from my eMac too
no just for fun my gaming rig here in the corner of the room
gets beyond 120 frames per second easy @ 1600x1200 if i lower to1280x960 near 200 fps
ok its equipped with 2 x gainward gf8800gtx sli which are at the moment quiet respectable gaming cards , not the fastest or most expensive but respectable
but the chap i do the rig up for is not satisfied ..to slow ,gets a new board
the phenom2 x4 9850 is not fast enough now the thing goes intel with a i7 extreme
no just for fun my gaming rig here in the corner of the room
gets beyond 120 frames per second easy @ 1600x1200 if i lower to1280x960 near 200 fps
ok its equipped with 2 x gainward gf8800gtx sli which are at the moment quiet respectable gaming cards , not the fastest or most expensive but respectable
but the chap i do the rig up for is not satisfied ..to slow ,gets a new board
the phenom2 x4 9850 is not fast enough now the thing goes intel with a i7 extreme
You are quite right to want that. There could have been a better cards in the iMac than the 4850, even though they implemented it quite well. The iMacs actually don't have the 18 month old 4850 in them, they have the mobility 4850 which I think came out last year (I don't know if that is meant to make you feel better or not). The iMac is really thin, and couldn't fit a proper desktop card in that design and do it well I don't think. Instead Apple has mobile cards and MASSIVE heat sinks for them. Have a look at a teardown. But what your're probably asking is: couldn't apple make the 27" iMac slightly thicker and put in a better GPU/better cooling and basically make it the greatest computer of all time for people with your needs (I am one of them). Yes they could.
The answer to your confusion is people that buy apple don't really know what's a good GPU or not. You say you've picked up a screw driver to put a computer together. As soon as you touched that screw driver you fell out of apple's target market
. People may respond back at you for pointing out that the 27" iMac GPU is weak with: "Mac are not about games anyway, they are about creating an experience which is proper for creation, work and multimedia" and other hilariousness that has appeared in this thread. As if games aren't multimedia and and people who like OSX and the iMac design don't want to play the games coming out in the next three years. But that's not the real answer as to why apple don't make a computer for people like you (the joke answer is that it is the mac pro).
To me it is a mystery why they don't make a performance iMac with a better GPU. It is pretty much the only important thing PCs have over macs. You can get good GPUs in them (without paying a ridiculous price). I guess apple don't think there is a big enough market for it. I think they are wrong, but I don't have millions of dollars of market research in front of me. All I know is that the thing keeping most of my friends from getting macs is not that they are pc fanboys but because they actually use their computers for more than emails and youtube.
Anyway, the 2010 iMacs might have something more impressive. Don't give up on macs yet!
As someone who likes to play games and has only, in the last three years, recently started buying Macs, let me try to give you some advice.
First, Macs are great. Doesn't get any simpler if you want something to "just work." I love it. That's why I got my Macbook Pro a couple years ago. I had a desktop for games and wanted something alternative that I didn't have to think about.
Back in Dec. I bought the 21.5" iMac with the ATI card. I still have my old desktop but with an AMD64 3500+ and GeForce 6600GT it's a little dated.
I haven't tried out my new iMac with any of the latest games, but it should be powerful enough to at least play them. Not with maxed out settings though. I also have moved most of my gaming to Xbox 360 and PS3 (and right after I bought a Logitech G11 Keyboard and G5 mouse shame!).
The thing with Macs is that you CAN'T upgrade them or customize them very much and I guess it's something you have to accept (unless you want to pay out the butt for a Mac Pro). My next computer purchase is going to be another desktop that I'm going to build myself and that will be a quad core with better specs than the Mac Pro for about 800 because I already have a monitor, keyboard, mouse, HDD, DVD RW, Case, etc... And I'm going to build it ground up to run OSX as one of it's operating systems.
So I'm right with you in that there is no option for someone like us but my advice would be the 21.5" iMac for some games (as mentioned you'll need a USB mouse because the Magic Mouse, while cool, is junk for gaming) and then I'd get an Xbox or PS3 for more deep gaming. I also have a 32" tv and having a system like those two makes it all the more beautiful.
Funny... I thought these are the same reasons why people DON'T respect Mac owners.
First, Macs are great. Doesn't get any simpler if you want something to "just work." I love it. That's why I got my Macbook Pro a couple years ago. I had a desktop for games and wanted something alternative that I didn't have to think about.
Back in Dec. I bought the 21.5" iMac with the ATI card. I still have my old desktop but with an AMD64 3500+ and GeForce 6600GT it's a little dated.
I haven't tried out my new iMac with any of the latest games, but it should be powerful enough to at least play them. Not with maxed out settings though. I also have moved most of my gaming to Xbox 360 and PS3 (and right after I bought a Logitech G11 Keyboard and G5 mouse
shame!).The thing with Macs is that you CAN'T upgrade them or customize them very much and I guess it's something you have to accept (unless you want to pay out the butt for a Mac Pro). My next computer purchase is going to be another desktop that I'm going to build myself and that will be a quad core with better specs than the Mac Pro for about 800 because I already have a monitor, keyboard, mouse, HDD, DVD RW, Case, etc... And I'm going to build it ground up to run OSX as one of it's operating systems.
So I'm right with you in that there is no option for someone like us but my advice would be the 21.5" iMac for some games (as mentioned you'll need a USB mouse because the Magic Mouse, while cool, is junk for gaming) and then I'd get an Xbox or PS3 for more deep gaming. I also have a 32" tv and having a system like those two makes it all the more beautiful.
Funny... I thought these are the same reasons why people DON'T respect Mac owners.
The iMac is really thin, and couldn't fit a proper desktop card in that design and do it well I don't think. Instead Apple has mobile cards and MASSIVE heat sinks for them.
...
The answer to your confusion is people that buy apple don't really know what's a good GPU or not. You say you've picked up a screw driver to put a computer together. As soon as you touched that screw driver you fell out of apple's target market
...
Anyway, the 2010 iMacs might have something more impressive. Don't give up on macs yet!
Thanks. I didn't know they used laptop cards... although, looking at the profile of the machine, I guess it's pretty clear in hindsight.
It's a pity that Apple don't cater for people like me. Because they really have me on the hook, right now. I'm begging to give them £1,400! But until I see a better graphics card...? I dunno. I think I'm gonna sit tight.
When do we expect the new machines? Next Autumn...?
[sobs at the thought]
Man... ya know, I was told to expect this. Mac types getting sniffy with me because I dare to politely criticise their precious brand.
Read my posts again. Properly. I am very keen to buy a Mac, because of all the things it does better than PCs (is that any clearer...? I have flowcharts). I just want to know why my particular needs, which are not ridiculous in the slightest, are not catered-for in a Mac that costs less than £2,500. And I'm not alone. No, I'm not.
The answer to your confusion is people that buy apple don't really know what's a good GPU or not. You say you've picked up a screw driver to put a computer together. As soon as you touched that screw driver you fell out of apple's target market
Wrong. I have been building PCs for over 20+ years. I continue to build them and own both.
iMacs are about everything. It's the total package.
Okay. Let's try a fresh approach...
... my current PC is toss. It needs replacing. If the iMacs aren't ideal for my needs, I'm gonna have to buy something more timid in the meantime. Save my 'total commitment' salvo for nine or ten months from now!
Does anybody have a view on the 2.53GHz/4GB Mac Mini? Obviously, "solid gaming performance" is off the table, now. But can it run 1080p video glitch-free? D'you reckon it'll run a couple of abandonware emualtors?
And it can run Excel and Firefox simultaneously without crashing six or seven times a day, right...?
(unlike my appalling PC)
... my current PC is toss. It needs replacing. If the iMacs aren't ideal for my needs, I'm gonna have to buy something more timid in the meantime. Save my 'total commitment' salvo for nine or ten months from now!
Does anybody have a view on the 2.53GHz/4GB Mac Mini? Obviously, "solid gaming performance" is off the table, now. But can it run 1080p video glitch-free? D'you reckon it'll run a couple of abandonware emualtors?
And it can run Excel and Firefox simultaneously without crashing six or seven times a day, right...?
(unlike my appalling PC)
That's funny, me too, which is why I bought the iMac.
Now, if I were a hardcore gamer I'd probably build a gaming rig PC and put in an i7 960, a ton of DDR3 1600MHz RAM and dual Radeon 5870s.
I don't own a Mac Mini but it appears to be able to play 1080p quite smoothly, even the 2.26GHz (and 2.0GHz) model.
Well, no offence intended, but your comments are at odds with what certain others have said. Maybe you're right, but I'm not gonna drop that kinda money when there's any doubt about it!
Thanks for the tip-off on the Mac Mini. That's looking increasingly like a good interim option.
I have a vacant VGA connector on my television; and there's a MDP-to-VGA adaptor, is there not? Would I be losing much, using an analogue video connecton? My TV's a 32" 1080i LCD.
I'd have to agree here. The "top of the line" graphics cards are marketed toward "hobbyists". Read: gamers. I was dissatisfied with the gaming performance of my iMac once I started playing anything beyond UT2004 (which runs smooth as glass on my 2600 HD equipped iMac), so i built a PC around a 9800GTX+ card last year. It was a great setup until the newest games came out and they really tax the system on full graphics (stuff like L4D 1 ran great, now L4D 2 leaves a lot to be desired in terms of framerate).
I suppose the bottom line is, if you are REALLY that concerned about having the latest graphics cards, a PC is the only way to go. However, being in grad school, the last thing I generally worry about is gaming (that is for the weekends). I have LOADS of windows open. Safari tabs left and right, PDF's open, media files, etc, and both my Mac's do just fine. I'm not saying you can't do that on a PC, of course you can. Honestly with me it comes down to personal preference and nothing more. I've been using Mac's since I was 5 years old, PC's not long after that. I just took a liking to the Mac interface more.
Thanks for your insights.
I think there's a culture divide, here. Coming from PCs, I don't see what the big effin' problem is asking for the option to fit a better graphics card; Mac'ites, on the other hand, don't see what my effin' problem is. Looks like everyone's going to have to agree to differ.
Speaking about games (I'm talking NES, SNES, Genesis, and old skool MAME...), do decent emulators exist for OS X? Or would I need to run Boot Camp and Windows 7?
I think there's a culture divide, here. Coming from PCs, I don't see what the big effin' problem is asking for the option to fit a better graphics card; Mac'ites, on the other hand, don't see what my effin' problem is. Looks like everyone's going to have to agree to differ.
Speaking about games (I'm talking NES, SNES, Genesis, and old skool MAME...), do decent emulators exist for OS X? Or would I need to run Boot Camp and Windows 7?