I don't wan't OSX to be like iOS.

[Partron22]

I just have to point out that the system does *not* insist that you save changes. It just insists that you explicitly undo the changes (by going to the last saved version, two clicks)

As I already explained, this leaves a files you've opened 'just to look at' vulnerable to corruption by cats, errant keystrokes etc.
You cannot know to explictly undo the changes that you do not know happened, and the OS will silently save those changes.

That's a new path to file corruption brought on by the new autosave/versions/file locking system. Admittedly, versions will let you get the original back, if you notice the problem before moving a file to a different drive, duplicating etc., but that's more a matter of chance than certainty.

 

[DeckMan]

You cannot know to explictly undo the changes that you do not know happened, and the OS will silently save those changes.

Okay, if you don't notice the "Edited" in the title bar before closing the window, you won't know there have been changes if they've been introduced by a cat. I take it your cat never stepped on your computer's power button for more than 4 seconds with unsaved changes? (or turned off the power outlet strip, if you're not using a laptop)

If that happens a lot, I'm afraid you'll have to QuickLook at documents before moving them. Or hope that Apple makes AutoSave an option, or introduces an option to ask, upon closing a document, if you want to keep the auto-saved changes - which is both rather unlikely, I reckon. Which is a shame, I like options, especially for features as controversial as AutoSave and Mission Control.

 

[tkermit]

As I already explained, this leaves a files you've opened 'just to look at' vulnerable to corruption by cats, errant keystrokes etc.
You cannot know to explictly undo the changes that you do not know happened, and the OS will silently save those changes.

That's a new path to file corruption brought on by the new autosave/versions/file locking system.

Not totally new. As soon as you do make changes to a file under Snow Leopard, you won't realize it if any additional but accidental changes are made by cats or errant keystrokes. The app just indicates that the document has been changed - which you are aware of - and you'll accept the changes including the ones you didn't want to make. And, unlike on Lion, you don't have Versions to undo anything.

 

[Partron22]

Not totally new. As soon as you do make changes to a file under Snow Leopard, you won't realize it if any additional but accidental changes are made by cats or errant keystrokes.

Or the laptop slipping off your lap, etc. etc. etc. The setup of autosave makes browsing your own unlocked files more hazardous.
If they don't want to make autosave optional, Apple could at least set up a 'browsing' mode that you can turn on and off for each launch of each App. It'd be as annoyng as the 'Restore Apps at startup' checkbox was in Lion, but at least you could hand your collection of birthday party pictures over to your 8 year old nephew without worrying that everything would be screwed up when you got them back.

 

[DeckMan]

...Apple could at least set up a 'browsing' mode that you can turn on and off for each launch of each App.

Well you *can* lock each document you don't want to be changed accidentally - you can even do that for a number of files in Finder by marking them as protected in the Get Info box (cmd+alt+I for multiple files). Of course, your nephew can easily unlock them, but that's just a tiny bit easier than saving them manually if he wanted to.

To be honest, I can't think of many situations where that would be necessary - just the cat and the nephew, though in both cases it seems easy enough to me to notice the changes and undo them. If the laptop slipped off your lap while you were editing a document in Snow Leopard, there would be changes too which you'd have to undo manually unless you saved before it happened. And the whole copying-files-after-they've-been-accidentally-edited thing would, in most cases, just add a few characters to the file that the recipient would have to delete - while that would seem unprofessional in professional circumstances, it wouldn't be a big deal, unless I'm missing something.

 

[MattInOz]

Or the laptop slipping off your lap, etc. etc. etc. The setup of autosave makes browsing your own unlocked files more hazardous.
If they don't want to make autosave optional, Apple could at least set up a 'browsing' mode that you can turn on and off for each launch of each App. It'd be as annoyng as the 'Restore Apps at startup' checkbox was in Lion, but at least you could hand your collection of birthday party pictures over to your 8 year old nephew without worrying that everything would be screwed up when you got them back.

This is what a guest account is for.
Enable the guest account, set which apps you want to give them access to.
Go in to iPhoto set Sharing of as much or as little as you'd like them to be able to browse. Oh and password protect your own account.

Then they can't mess up any of your stuff, and anything they do get trashed when you log out.

 

[Partron22]

Well you *can* lock each document you don't want to be changed accidentally

This is what a guest account is for.

Yes, there are workarounds, but they're not in the realm that most users inhabit. Ask yourself, could your (hypothetical) aging dad do this? how about your kid sister, the photographer?
The answer is likely no. Their data is at risk in a way it wasn't before Lion, isn't it?

An unexpected, silent behavior that may result in data loss may not seem like a flaw to Apple or you, but it does to me.

 

[KnightWRX]

That's probably why Xcode doesn't use versions, but git/subversion instead. Are there programming tools that support versions?

It's funny the poster would even make a comparison with Programming seeing how programmers have used version control systems for the last 20 or so odd years.

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Not totally new. As soon as you do make changes to a file under Snow Leopard, you won't realize it if any additional but accidental changes are made by cats or errant keystrokes. The app just indicates that the document has been changed - which you are aware of - and you'll accept the changes including the ones you didn't want to make. And, unlike on Lion, you don't have Versions to undo anything.

Don't bother, logic never reaches people with a vendetta and no will to move on and learn new ways of doing things.

 

[newagemac]

Or the laptop slipping off your lap, etc. etc. etc. The setup of autosave makes browsing your own unlocked files more hazardous.
If they don't want to make autosave optional, Apple could at least set up a 'browsing' mode that you can turn on and off for each launch of each App. It'd be as annoyng as the 'Restore Apps at startup' checkbox was in Lion, but at least you could hand your collection of birthday party pictures over to your 8 year old nephew without worrying that everything would be screwed up when you got them back.

I think you missed the point entirely. He was saying that the same problem existed before Lion and Autosave. If you were typing a document and you left it and the cat walked on the keyboard, the laptop fell off your lap, or the nephew hit some keys you would have the same problem. You could still end up saving changes you didn't want and had no clue about.

In fact, without Versions it's even worse because there would be no way of comparing or going back to previous versions if you realized it later.

 

[MattInOz]

Yes, there are workarounds, but they're not in the realm that most users inhabit. Ask yourself, could your (hypothetical) aging dad do this? how about your kid sister, the photographer?
The answer is likely no. Their data is at risk in a way it wasn't before Lion, isn't it?

An unexpected, silent behavior that may result in data loss may not seem like a flaw to Apple or you, but it does to me.

Guest Account is not a workaround. It is what the function is there for.
I don't need to ask myself hypothetically, I've already explained it to my dad over the phone. Have to say, as designated Family and often office IT guy, its on the trivial end of things I've explained over the phone.

Sorry not sure what you mean the risk to data from ignorant users seem to be no higher or indeed lower under lion. Yet it does seem a lot better under "D'oh" situations.

 

[DeckMan]

Whoops - didn't mean to bring the discussion back, I just wanted to help.

All I'm saying is Auto Save works well for me, and I believe for computer illiterates it has saved far more work than it has destroyed.

 

[KnightWRX]

In fact, without Versions it's even worse because there would be no way of comparing or going back to previous versions if you realized it later.

In fact, before Versions, if you hit CMD-S, it was bubye to whatever was on disk. Unless you went the hardcore route and restored from backup, whatever was there was gone and you had to work manually to restore it to a previous state.

Versions saves you that hassle and worry of having to choose between 30 minutes undoing changes (because your cat made changes, you saved them, and closed the app, thus destroying any chances of simply using CMD-Z) or 2 hours working back up to the level you were before.

Versions is simply more resilient in about every case there is. The little downside ? A few keystroke to restore a version if your cat happens to mess a document and close the app. I think those few extra keystrokes are well worth the resiliency the system brings, and whining about it 8 months after the fact is about 7 months and 3 weeks too much. By that 2nd week, anyone who isn't just here to grief realised all of this.

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All I'm saying is Auto Save works well for me, and I believe for computer illiterates it has saved far more work than it has destroyed.

Autosave/Versions doesn't destroy any work. It's all still there a few keystrokes away.

 

[DeckMan]

Autosave/Versions doesn't destroy any work. It's all still there a few keystrokes away.

I meant in the rare (and possibly hypothetical) case where they move a file onto a different drive and delete the original

 

[pdjudd]

I meant in the rare (and possibly hypothetical) case where they move a file onto a different drive and delete the original

A problem best solved by backups - you can suffer this problem even without versions.

 

[throAU]

As versions are saved on the same drive, if your hardware fails so goes all your data. The best way to be safe is to use "Time Machine" hourly backups on another drive. Your "versions" are saved and you won't have to worry bout drive failure. Simply open a pervious version of your document from "Time Machine" and restore it to where ever you please. Presto!

No difference here between versions and not. By hardware failure, i was referring to a crash due to overheating, hardware bug, etc. Not hard drive failure - in that case you're screwed either way and need to go back to a time machine backup.

Which, if you've been using versions, has them rolled up on your time machine backup...

 

[3282868]

No difference here between versions and not. By hardware failure, i was referring to a crash due to overheating, hardware bug, etc. Not hard drive failure - in that case you're screwed either way and need to go back to a time machine backup.

Which, if you've been using versions, has them rolled up on your time machine backup...

Had to +1 you on that fact. Still, I'd rather just use "Time Machine" (with my Mac Pro and my MacBook Pro laptop backing up changes once I get home). On the road it's a different story, unless I used some sort of off-site backup such as what iDisk used to be (which I still use until its demise this summer) or Dropbox.

Speaking of backups/syncing, a colleague asked if there was any third party app to help keep iPhoto libraries in sync between systems. As it stands, iPhoto Streaming aside, there's no way to keep events and such between different Mac's identical unless you only sync to one library, which sucks with a MacBook Pro and Mac Pro (my colleague also asked about document syncing in general and aside from iDisk's automatic syncing I couldn't think of an app that would allow for files between Mac's to be in harmony).

 

[DeckMan]

...there's no way to keep events and such between different Mac's identical unless you only sync to one library, which sucks with a MacBook Pro and Mac Pro.

Really? What happens if you do that with, say, Dropbox?

 

[3282868]

Really? What happens if you do that with, say, Dropbox?

Did I forget to mention I use Dropbox? Sorry if so. I meant automatically, as iDisk has the ability to automatically keep the most current document(s) synced in the folders/files you chose. Dropbox requires manual syncing, which for those who have many work files between their office and home Mac's isn't very productive. There was an app, I believe ChronoSync or such, that did automatic syncing of documents between Mac's but haven't seen it in years. Once iDisk is done this year, there won't be many options for automatic syncing.

 

[DeckMan]

Did I forget to mention I use Dropbox? Sorry if so.

You did mention Dropbox, so I assumed you use it
But now I'm legitimately confused. Doesn't Dropbox sync your files in the Dropbox folder automatically if you keep it running? Of course, you'd have to either have your iPhoto library *in* the Dropbox folder, or add a symlink to it.

 

[3282868]

You did mention Dropbox, so I assumed you use it
But now I'm legitimately confused. Doesn't Dropbox sync your files in the Dropbox folder automatically if you keep it running? Of course, you'd have to either have your iPhoto library *in* the Dropbox folder, or add a symlink to it.

Manually yes, you have to make sure you place new/modified files (this is file syncing in general) into your Dropbox folder before leaving work, etc. whereas iDisk automatically checked the versions of your files on all your Mac's using "Automatic Syncing" and kept the most current versions.

As for iPhoto Library syncing, I couldn't imagine syncing as it would require the entire library database. Apple hasn't done much in terms of multiple iPhoto Library management. Aside from creating events in one library, then exporting that event with the maximum/original resolution settings checked into a folder, then copying that folder to your other Mac, then importing that folder as an event. Yeah, that's a lot of steps lol.

 

[DeckMan]

Oh snap. I thought you could just put the library in there, since it is a folder after all, but didn't know it would be so complicated. Then again, my iPhoto library is way too big for Dropbox anyway..

 

[3282868]

Oh snap. I thought you could just put the library in there, since it is a folder after all, but didn't know it would be so complicated. Then again, my iPhoto library is way too big for Dropbox anyway..

Unfortunately most iPhoto libraries are too large to keep in a Dropbox account. Mine's well over 30 GB's. Interesting idea though, if you could put your library in your Dropbox folder and have all your Mac's point to the Dropbox folder for your iPhoto library it would keep things in sync. However, it would be the only copy of your iPhoto library unless you maintain a local copy as well. Then there is the issue of WiFi connectivity and speed in transferring data to the library when opening it and using it.

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

As I already explained, this leaves a files you've opened 'just to look at' vulnerable to corruption by cats, errant keystrokes etc.
You cannot know to explictly undo the changes that you do not know happened, and the OS will silently save those changes.

That's a new path to file corruption brought on by the new autosave/versions/file locking system. Admittedly, versions will let you get the original back, if you notice the problem before moving a file to a different drive, duplicating etc., but that's more a matter of chance than certainty.

I had the same problem, perhaps in the Mac OS X 10.3.x time (great OS, besides < 10.3.1), do not know exactly, with manual backups (disk images). I can tell you it was an absolute nightmare. Of course, if you think some important data is still available and it is not available, not on the first backup drive, and not on the second. And several OS generations later, we find out Lion provides still no solution. The only solution are backup drives which you use only every month or year on your Mac, so the OS cannot destruct certain files. If you use (encrypted) disk images for your backups, you can only hope Apple supports them in future OS generations (yes, i know VFDecrypt and others exist, thank you).

I think they know, why the allow multiple backup drives in ML. What we need? An open source decryption tool for encrypted time machine backups, so we can restore our protected data (with the correct key), even if OS X 12.0 does not support OS X 10.8-encrypted backups. And we need options in Time Machine, which allow us to use a new backup drive only every week, every month or every year. That would make it nearly impossible to damage older backups.

 

[throAU]

Yes, there are workarounds, but they're not in the realm that most users inhabit. Ask yourself, could your (hypothetical) aging dad do this? how about your kid sister, the photographer?
The answer is likely no. Their data is at risk in a way it wasn't before Lion, isn't it?

An unexpected, silent behavior that may result in data loss may not seem like a flaw to Apple or you, but it does to me.

You really are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

You can get the data back from previous versions.

The FAR more likely cause of data loss is App/OS crash (or power cut, etc) before the user saved their work. And this case is covered.

The data is PROTECTED in a way that it wasn't before Lion, and your theoretical "data loss" scenario is easily recoverable by going to previous versions. You can also lock documents, or manually save "a version" if you want a specific save point.

You either don't know how versions work and are un-justifiably paranoid, or you're being deliberately obtuse and just looking for something to whine about here...

 

[KnightWRX]

You really are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

Not to mention his scenario also applies to Snow Leopard, where a cat/stray kid/whatever can modify his "read only opened copy" and he wouldn't know about it, make more modifications and save them.

Of course, then he'd really be screwed without Versions to bail him out. So even he is arguing for Versions. Hence why I moved him to ignore, since it's obvious he doesn't understand what he's whining about.