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BellSystem

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Then MacOS would have to bring something game changing to the table.

The reality these days is that Windows is pretty damn stable.

Apples game changer now is Apple Silicone but for Intel macs what was the selling point if you remove the windows option entirely?

“Come by a mac where some of your software won’t work” vs “Everything that you can do on a Mac can be done in windows and more”

To overcome you need something special which apple finally has.

In advance, I won’t even consider the eco system as a valid selling point. It’s beneficial and a spectacular perk for apple users. But it’s not a selling point. “To make up for lack of Windows compatibility you can get good integration if you spend another £2k on apple hardware”
The Mac’s existence never was about Windows comparability. Windows is still a dumpster fire of legacy components wrapped up in a pretty package. The world runs on Linux/Unix and that’s it’s advantage. It’s the only mass market Unix platform for consumers which still is a big deal. For certain professionals the applications for MacOS are far better then what’s out there for Windows. The Mac doesn’t need to be able to run Windows to serve the markets where it excels. All of the Macs selling points from 2004 still stand today and when you add the ecosystem benefits it’s an even better proposition. Coming from the Mac needs Windows perspective is ignoring what the spirit and core of the Macintosh is.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,199
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Perth, Western Australia
Coming from the Mac needs Windows perspective is ignoring what the spirit and core of the Macintosh is.

For sure, but as someone who dipped the toes into the water in 2007, prior to that I'd always wanted a macOS X machine but the safety net of "I can still run windows if I don't like it" didn't exist until the intel switch.

I'm not saying its essential, but its a comfort that if you don't like a Mac, you could run windows if required.

I still have long term Mac using friends who have Windows specific apps they need from time to time but prefer Mac hardware. One of them is an electrician/industrial control tech and the new machines are NOT interesting to him because he can't use them to run his PLC software when he needs to.

The Mac market today with intel is FAR larger than people who just want to run macOS applications only. And for some people, intel/windows compatibility is essential. Not a nice to have.
 

TiggrToo

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Lihp8270

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The Mac’s existence never was about Windows comparability. Windows is still a dumpster fire of legacy components wrapped up in a pretty package. The world runs on Linux/Unix and that’s it’s advantage. It’s the only mass market Unix platform for consumers which still is a big deal. For certain professionals the applications for MacOS are far better then what’s out there for Windows. The Mac doesn’t need to be able to run Windows to serve the markets where it excels. All of the Macs selling points from 2004 still stand today and when you add the ecosystem benefits it’s an even better proposition. Coming from the Mac needs Windows perspective is ignoring what the spirit and core of the Macintosh is.
It’s still for the most part a consumer device, and the vast majority of consumers do not care that it has its origins in Unix. They simply want to run their software.

Most people aren’t going to buy 2 machines to use a piece of software infrequently. A Mac enthusiast would, or would make do.

Previously your average consumer could be told “you can boot into windows for your occasional use”. This is no longer true.

I’m back on Windows instead of MacOS with personal machines purely because some software I use is not compatible with Apple Silicone and I’m not interested in having multiple machines when Windows can do everything that I use MacOS for.

I’d bet that the number of users who require Mac only software are a tiny minority of users who alone couldn’t support the market. Which if true, suggests that Apple needs the users whose workflow can be replicated on Windows.
 
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TiggrToo

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I’d bet that the number of users who require Mac only software are a tiny minority of users who alone couldn’t support the market. Which if true, suggests that Apple needs the users whose workflow can be replicated on Windows.

Given that Apple are apparently doing well in selling their M1s, it would seem that claims of it's death over the lack of Windows compatability has been greatly exaggerated...
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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I’d bet that the number of users who require Mac only software are a tiny minority of users who alone couldn’t support the market. Which if true, suggests that Apple needs the users whose workflow can be replicated on Windows.

This is probably true. Then again, the majority of the popular workflows run on both Windows and macOS.
 

throAU

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Feb 13, 2012
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Perth, Western Australia
UNIX actually outnumbers Linux almost 5:1 in the desktop space ;)

If you include macOS, sure.

However I consider macOS to be a superset of Unix (and was assuming the certification no longer existed).

Either way, the certification is irrelevant in any case.

  • Try and take something compiled for AIX (as in, a binary) and run it on macOS
  • Try and compile something on AIX from macOS - or vice versa
  • Try and compile something from Solaris on Linux

You'll need to mess with it to get it to work. The certification is, and has been for some time, largely irrelevant BS.
 

Larabee119

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Sep 16, 2014
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I totally feel the OP.
Damn, gotta sell my RTX3090ti, can’t upgrade that ****** card VRAM. I’m stuck with it man.

Jokes aside, I like to work in Macintosh environments and also have a top of the line windows for other stuffs.
Machines are tools to make money, if it doesn’t fit your job requirements , replace it with an alternative product. I failed to comprehend the way people think about upgradability. Computer after 3 years will be much faster and save me more time, so I choose to sell my old one and get a new one then claim business expenses tax.
 
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BellSystem

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It’s still for the most part a consumer device, and the vast majority of consumers do not care that it has its origins in Unix. They simply want to run their software.

Most people aren’t going to buy 2 machines to use a piece of software infrequently. A Mac enthusiast would, or would make do.

Previously your average consumer could be told “you can boot into windows for your occasional use”. This is no longer true.

I’m back on Windows instead of MacOS with personal machines purely because some software I use is not compatible with Apple Silicone and I’m not interested in having multiple machines when Windows can do everything that I use MacOS for.

I’d bet that the number of users who require Mac only software are a tiny minority of users who alone couldn’t support the market. Which if true, suggests that Apple needs the users whose workflow can be replicated on Windows.
Apples target market isn’t people who want to run Windows occasionally and I am willing to bet they have the rough numbers on this trend and factored it into the transition path. I think you are under estimating the core Mac only base. My job exposes me to several large business environments with Macs and the vast majority of them if not all run only Mac OS. I rarely ever see a Mac in the service side of the company with boot camp installed. I do see 1 or 2 companies running Windows exclusively on Mac hardware to make the office look expensive. I’m not denying there is a good percentage of people dual booting, but I don’t think this transition will be as big of impact as everyone thinks.

It’s not really even an issue as Parallels already has an M1 version.
 

Lihp8270

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Given that Apple are apparently doing well in selling their M1s, it would seem that claims of it's death over the lack of Windows compatability has been greatly exaggerated...
It’s not going to die over the lack of compatibility. Apple will likely gain users where they lose them.

It will be interesting to see the market share changes over time and see what proportion of those sales are new users or just a lot of Intel mac users upgrading.
 
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BellSystem

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If you include macOS, sure.

However I consider macOS to be a superset of Unix (and was assuming the certification no longer existed).

Either way, the certification is irrelevant in any case.

  • Try and take something compiled for AIX (as in, a binary) and run it on macOS
  • Try and compile something on AIX from macOS - or vice versa
  • Try and compile something from Solaris on Linux

You'll need to mess with it to get it to work. The certification is, and has been for some time, largely irrelevant BS.
A lot of that falling apart was due to the varying hardware landscape….SGI on MIPS, Solaris on SPARC, AIX on Power, ect. Once it became a hardware war it was not as easy to be interoperable.

If you have all the dependencies on both platforms and aren’t relying on hardware specific features you can still compile the a good amount of apps across all the platforms. But each flavor has drifted in its own direction and that is harder to do. It was a much easier prospect in 2000 than in 2022.
 

Lihp8270

macrumors 65816
Dec 31, 2016
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Apples target market isn’t people who want to run Windows occasionally and I am willing to bet they have the rough numbers on this trend and factored it into the transition path. I think you are under estimating the core Mac only base. My job exposes me to several large business environments with Macs and the vast majority of them if not all run only Mac OS. I rarely ever see a Mac in the service side of the company with boot camp installed. I do see 1 or 2 companies running Windows exclusively on Mac hardware to make the office look expensive. I’m not denying there is a good percentage of people dual booting, but I don’t think this transition will be as big of impact as everyone thinks.

It’s not really even an issue as Parallels already has an M1 version.
I don’t think apple are going to struggle because of it.

And I agree Apple most certainly has factored it in and has numbers and data we can only speculate at.

But for a lot of people it’s a valid concern and is a valid reason for not switching to Apple Silicone.

While there’s a parallels for M1, the licensing is a grey area which affects some businesses and for me personally the software I use doesn’t run on Windows for ARM either.
 

PandaPunch

macrumors regular
May 4, 2015
204
186
I think the M1 is fine. While I'm not the biggest fan of not being able to upgrade the SSD, the general speed has been pretty good. And I guess I'm biased because I still have a Windows PC, although it's in need of repairs, but I haven't really missed the Windows compatibility.

The M1 is what makes the Mac not just another machine you could've gotten from Best Buy with a different OS. But I understand that compared to some folks here, I have basic needs. I see Windows as just an operating system for gaming at best and most of the software I do use has M1 versions anyway or can be used in a browser.
 

TiggrToo

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Aug 24, 2017
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People are still updating AmigaOS as well, doesn't mean its alive.

HP-UX is an Enterprise operating system that is used to power modern day servers costing thousands of dollars - if not hundreds of thousands.

AIX is also very much alive, and also an Enterprise operating system - same price range as HPs offerings.

And give that we've now established that MacOS is Unix Certified - add a third to the mix of very very much alive Unix based Operating Systems.

Sounds lije you're grasping at straws here. Just because you're personally not acquainted with modern Unix operating systems doesn't mean they don't exist.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
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his is about adding memory on a Dell 9310: "No, you can't. All Dell XPS 13 9310 models have a soldered memory". Fact is RAM hardly every fails over the life of the machine anymore.
All machines with LPDDR RAM have soldered-in memory, it's a constraint of LPDDR. However, with PCs we're usually talking about ultra-slim laptops which you'd expect to be harder to upgrade than desktops, which usually have upgradeable DDR4 DIMMs. Apple, with the M1, is fairly unique in using LPDDR RAM and soldered-in SSD in desktops.

As for SSD, there's no excuse for non-socketed SSDs on desktops, even if it is proprietary Flash-only modules rather than standard M.2. because M1/T2. Unlike RAM, SSDs can "wear out" over time and are more likely to fail than other components, so they should at least be replaceable, if not upgradeable.

"You should pay 2X or 3x times the normal price with our configuration." No doubt that some options are overpriced, but isn't everyone tired of the comparison to fast SSDs and fast ram to slow ram or the cheap slow SSds Dell uses and say "see, Apple is expensive".
Nonsense. A high-spec, not-at-all-rubbish, M.2 PCIe 4, x4 (5000 MB/s write, 7000 MB/s read) SSD blade costs £155 for 1TB (including the controller) - Apple want £200 for an extra 256GB on a Mac Mini.

(If you want $ prices, just cross of the £ and write $ and you're on the right cricket pitch - the UK prices include 20% tax & are generally a bit inflated c.f. US, which pretty much cancels out the $/£ exchange rate)

That Dell you mentioned uses the same class of LPDDR4x/4267 RAM as the Apple M1 - yet Dell want £50-£100 for the 8 to 16GB upgrade (...on the Dell UK website, various options are entangled so you have to upgrade to 16GB then downgrade to 8GB to get the like-for-like price comparison) whereas Apple want £200.

LPDDR4x RAM prices are tricky to compare since they're not a consumer item and tend to cost "$call" - but this is even a thing with Macs that use bog standard DDR4 DIMMS which you can compare with retail versions from Crucial etc. and it's long been Apple's standard $200 per extras 8GB vs. about $40 per 8GB from Crucial et. al. - and when I upgraded my Intel iMac to 24GB (for considerably less than Apple wanted for an upgrade to 16GB) the Crucial DIMMs were exactly the same "Micron" brand as the 8GB that Apple installed (not surprising - Crucial are just the retail arm of Micron and there's only a small handful of companies actually making RAM).

Apple also low-balls the base spec - with current RAM and SSD prices, it's ludicrous for premium machines to come with 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD as standard - it would be false economy but for Apple's ability to get away with their silly upgrade prices. It's also a major pain for anybody who can't buy custom configs direct from Apple.

In fact the SSds can be swapped with the same size SSds (as others have demonstrated) from another Mac Studio. so we will probably see options down the road a bit.
True, but so far Apple have said that upgrades are not possible - and unless Apple enables it via their configurator software, they have the last word.

People are porting Linux, after all MACOS is built on Linux to begin with. Why Microsoft doesn't want to release ARM versions of Windows (Well, I don't care, because Windows sucks), but they could if they chose.
Ok, but first, as @TiggrToo points out, MacOS isn't "built on Linux" - it's Unix-like, with a custom kernel and a BSD-based "userland". If you want a "Un*x-like" environment then MacOS is great - and way better than Windows - and most common Unix/Linux software has been patched to build and run with MacOS - but if you actually need Linux then you need Linux, and if you're doing web/server development it's most convenient to use the same Linux distribution (Ubuntu etc.) that you are targeting. That said, Linux for ARM is pretty well-developed - probably better than Windows for ARM, and Linux/Unix is built around source-code compatibility rather than Windows' insane levels of backward-compatibility with binaries - and runs fine under virtualisation on M1. Asahi Linux (native Linux on Apple Silicon) is looking exciting, but is a long way from being "production ready".

As for Windows - the status quo seems to be that MS will happily take your money for a Windows-on-ARM license and it seems to activate and run quite happily on a M1 using Parallels, but if it breaks you get to keep both pieces... and if you need to run x86 Windows Apps they'll still only be emulated.

MacOS is based upon BSD, which is a Unix derivative. BSD was out long before Linus Torvalds probably even touched a computer keyboard.

...of course, to be pedantic, Linux is a kernel not an operating system, just as MacOS's kernel is XNU and the bits that make it a full operating system (notably the GNU tools and the X Window GUI, bits of BSD and SysV too) also long predate Linus Torvalds' work. (nb: the BSD compatibility layer was an optional add-on with early versions of OS X)

"MacOs is Unix but Linux isn't Unix" is a fun fact, but a bit irrelevant now that "Linux" is pretty much becoming the de-facto standard for "Un*x-like operating systems" and "Unix(tm)" is just a commercial validation/branding scheme (which Linux could easily qualify for if it weren't at odds with GPL licensing). Heck, Windows was Posix compliant at one time....

Anyway, MacOS's BSD layer is sufficiently different from Linux's GNU/SysV-ish nature to be annoying if you're switching between them.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
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To run Windows, she added a slot-in processor board (not at all clear of the details - must have had RAM). Then she could run RISC OS and Windows.
Uh, there were 3 possibilities with the Archimedes:

- there was a software-only emulator (slow... but impressive in that the ARM was fast enough for it to be remotely usable).

- you could plug in an expansion board containing, in effect, a "headless" PC including RAM

- With the later RISC PC, there were two slots for processor cards, one holding the ARM chip, while the other could take a small card containing just a 386/486 processor and a "glue" chip, which shared RAM with the ARM.

I have a RISC PC in my cupboard but fear that plugging it in today would just result in a grinding of square bearings as the hard drive tries to spin up followed by a fusillade of exploding capacitors...
 

Arctic Moose

macrumors 68000
Jun 22, 2017
1,599
2,133
Gothenburg, Sweden
I have a RISC PC in my cupboard but fear that plugging it in today would just result in a grinding of square bearings as the hard drive tries to spin up followed by a fusillade of exploding capacitors...

I booted up my Power Macintosh 9600 for the first time in over 20 years a few months ago to see if it perhaps had software I needed to open files I rescued from a box of floppies I found in a moving box that was packed 25 years ago.

It all worked fine, including the 2 GB external SCSI drive, the biggest challenge was file transfer. It had Fetch installed so I just started a temporary local ftp server.

I also found partitions containing working installs of BeOS and LinuxPPC.
 

cheesygrin

macrumors regular
Sep 1, 2008
127
253
Macs are not for everybody or every situation. I work in business IT and dislike administering Macs in a traditional business environment - for a number of reasons, including lack of upgradeability and cost.

For personal home use, I love them. They work in a simple, fast, reliable, seamless way that lets me just get what I want to do, done, and move on.

The trade-off is that I have to swallow Apple's pricing and way of doing things, in order to gain that overall seamless experience. It's a sacrifice I'm prepared to make for home use, but not for business. Different scenario, different product required. You just have to choose what's most important to you and go with the best product to meet that need.
 

BellSystem

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I don’t think apple are going to struggle because of it.

And I agree Apple most certainly has factored it in and has numbers and data we can only speculate at.

But for a lot of people it’s a valid concern and is a valid reason for not switching to Apple Silicone.

While there’s a parallels for M1, the licensing is a grey area which affects some businesses and for me personally the software I use doesn’t run on Windows for ARM either.
Sure it's a concern....and it is valid......but I say "oh well". Progress needs to happen and this will have bigger net positive impacts beyond Apple. That is the cost of progress. It's unfortunate that it's inconvenient for some and likley means they drop the platform. But I'd rather lose them all then stay on Intel for 5 more minutes. The industry needs to move forward and X86 needs to die for a lot of reasons. We're moving into a brighter future. I bet this issue will be a non-issue for the folks we lose at some point. The Windows world will need to move to ARM/RISC to stay relevant.
 
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bobcomer

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Sure it's a concern....and it is valid......but I say "oh well". Progress needs to happen and this will have bigger net positive impacts beyond Apple. That is the cost of progress. It's unfortunate that it's inconvenient for some and likley means they drop the platform. But I'd rather lose them all then stay on Intel for 5 more minutes. The industry needs to move forward and X86 needs to die for a lot of reasons. We're moving into a brighter future. I bet this issue will be a non-issue for the folks we lose at some point. The Windows world will need to move to ARM/RISC to stay relevant.
There is no reason x86 has to die, or any other product unless it's dangerous to use. And x86 drives most businesses these days -- do you want all businesses to die too, just for the sake of your "progress".

The market decides what it wants and right now for PC's, it's x86 by a good margin. When that market share gets down to less than 10%, you can start talking about it should die, until then, you're just anti-business, anti-consumer, and anti free market.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
I work in business IT and dislike administering Macs in a traditional business environment - for a number of reasons, including lack of upgradeability and cost.

That's quite interesting since we had a very different experience. Macs might be more expensive but the total cost of ownership was significantly lower than using Windows laptops. The real cost is the support and personell downtime, and those were much much rarer with Macs in our experience.
 
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