I predict the Surface will flop due to lack of software

[zhenya]

Good post Spinedoc.

I think it really remains to be seen how well Windows tablets are accepted. Does the market at large really want business tablets or are they content with laptops? I really thought about the Surface instead of a new iPad, but the lack of apps and the looming question of how long before that store develops kept me away. Atom tablets are promising; the Thinkpad Tablet 2 has impressive specs for the price, but again there are questions. What is it really like to use? Will the Atom processors be up to the task of running full Windows, or will consumers used to i5 processors and 8 gigs of ram be frustrated? Will all the software people are used to using on Windows transfer to tablets or will everything have to be redesigned to work in both desktop and modern interfaces? Will users put up with that duality?

 

[spinedoc77]

Good post Spinedoc.

I think it really remains to be seen how well Windows tablets are accepted. Does the market at large really want business tablets or are they content with laptops? I really thought about the Surface instead of a new iPad, but the lack of apps and the looming question of how long before that store develops kept me away. Atom tablets are promising; the Thinkpad Tablet 2 has impressive specs for the price, but again there are questions. What is it really like to use? Will the Atom processors be up to the task of running full Windows, or will consumers used to i5 processors and 8 gigs of ram be frustrated? Will all the software people are used to using on Windows transfer to tablets or will everything have to be redesigned to work in both desktop and modern interfaces? Will users put up with that duality?

All good questions which also remain unanswered for myself. I already know I'm not going to touch RT, it just doesn't make sense to me when I already have an ipad to move laterally in terms of OS capability. It does have office though, which will probably sway many.

Originally my plan was to get an ivy bridge tablet, but the more I thought about it and recalled the old laptop days when it would last me 3-4 hours and I'd have to carry a power brick it made me realize how used to truly all day battery life the ipad has made me. I think this is why we haven't seen a huge revolution with the current sandy bridge tablets out there by samsung and HP to name a couple. The appeal of all day battery life, thin package, no fans blowing, etc are enough where people will tolerate having to have another device to get real work done, aka a laptop. But the Atom CPU is where I am resting my hope on, a true full Windows 8 with all day battery life, no fan, and thin form factor. That's the HUGE question mark in my head, how will the current cloverfield Atom CPU perform? IMO MS future rests on how the Atom CPU performs, RT will be niche, and ivy bridge tablets will be niche.

My plan has changed. I plan on buying an Atom CPU Windows 8 Pro tablet right now as I'm incredibly impatient. Come January I'll see how the Ivy bridge WinPro surface performs and maybe buy that or another ivy bridge and give the Atom to my wife, or if Atom performs well I'll just keep it and save some money. Either way I don't see myself losing, even if the Atom CPU is only good for ipad like performance I still see it as a huge huge improvement for my own personal needs over the ipad and iOS.

 

[Technarchy]

Good post Spinedoc.

I think it really remains to be seen how well Windows tablets are accepted. Does the market at large really want business tablets or are they content with laptops?

Do people want a bloated Windows OS for a tablet is a better question. How long till those OS Windows/MSFT-isms start appearing?

RT could be much lighter in my opinion. By lighter I mean as lean as Windows Phone, and less like Windows desktop.

 

[zhenya]

Had to run an errand at Staples today so I got a short amount of time with a few of the tablets they had there. Unfortunately the only real Windows 8 tablet was a Samsung Ativ Smart PC 500T (yes, that's really its name - although it took some doing to figure out what it was). This is an 11.6" tablet with an Atom processor, 64gig ssd and 2gb ram, offered at $599 there without the companion keyboard (I did not even know a keyboard was an option till looking it up when I got home).

First, this is one big tablet. Build quality is average, not bad, nothing special. This is really a landscape only device, not only are the proportions ridiculous in portrait, but the font scaling, at least in Internet Explorer was so bad as to be nearly unusable at smaller font sizes. This really reinforces my dislike of 16:9 displays on anything but a television.

My few minutes of using it went ok at first, things were smooth and quick, and you have to give Microsoft credit for doing things differently than everyone else; it really is the only other tablet OS that feels professional.

Unfortunately after a few minutes of browsing the web, the device locked up entirely and would not respond to any input - even pressing the physical Home button did nothing. I had to hard shut down the tablet, which proceeded to take at least 3-4 minutes, at which time I was given an error message, at which point it needed to restart again, and then proceeded to install updates. After a few more minutes of waiting, I finally walked away.

I administer a small Windows network part time at my job, so I understand this stuff; what this experience really made clear to me is how much I value the way that iOS devices are ALWAYS ready to go. That's what makes them so valuable as a device to have floating around the house or in your bag to quickly pick up and use. I ultimately gave up on Windows as my media center PC for the same reasons - I'd just want to watch a movie and too many times it was pestering me to do something.

Lastly, I can also really see now that Microsoft is going to have to do something to address the confusion that is bound to happen here. The only way that I knew this thing was running a regular version of Windows is because I saw the specs and knew that RT doesn't run on Atom processors. To poke around as a relative novice to Windows 8, how the heck are you supposed to tell? The OEM's aren't doing them any favors either; this device was marked entirely as a 'Samsung Ativ'. That's it. Go online and it turns out Samsung makes all kinds of devices under the Ativ name. Talk about confusion.

I really want this to work out for Microsoft; unfortunately this was not the greatest first experience.

 

[spinedoc77]

Had to run an errand at Staples today so I got a short amount of time with a few of the tablets they had there. Unfortunately the only real Windows 8 tablet was a Samsung Ativ Smart PC 500T (yes, that's really its name - although it took some doing to figure out what it was). This is an 11.6" tablet with an Atom processor, 64gig ssd and 2gb ram, offered at $599 there without the companion keyboard (I did not even know a keyboard was an option till looking it up when I got home).

First, this is one big tablet. Build quality is average, not bad, nothing special. This is really a landscape only device, not only are the proportions ridiculous in portrait, but the font scaling, at least in Internet Explorer was so bad as to be nearly unusable at smaller font sizes. This really reinforces my dislike of 16:9 displays on anything but a television.

My few minutes of using it went ok at first, things were smooth and quick, and you have to give Microsoft credit for doing things differently than everyone else; it really is the only other tablet OS that feels professional.

Unfortunately after a few minutes of browsing the web, the device locked up entirely and would not respond to any input - even pressing the physical Home button did nothing. I had to hard shut down the tablet, which proceeded to take at least 3-4 minutes, at which time I was given an error message, at which point it needed to restart again, and then proceeded to install updates. After a few more minutes of waiting, I finally walked away.

I administer a small Windows network part time at my job, so I understand this stuff; what this experience really made clear to me is how much I value the way that iOS devices are ALWAYS ready to go. That's what makes them so valuable as a device to have floating around the house or in your bag to quickly pick up and use. I ultimately gave up on Windows as my media center PC for the same reasons - I'd just want to watch a movie and too many times it was pestering me to do something.

Lastly, I can also really see now that Microsoft is going to have to do something to address the confusion that is bound to happen here. The only way that I knew this thing was running a regular version of Windows is because I saw the specs and knew that RT doesn't run on Atom processors. To poke around as a relative novice to Windows 8, how the heck are you supposed to tell? The OEM's aren't doing them any favors either; this device was marked entirely as a 'Samsung Ativ'. That's it. Go online and it turns out Samsung makes all kinds of devices under the Ativ name. Talk about confusion.

I really want this to work out for Microsoft; unfortunately this was not the greatest first experience.

Meh, my ipad has locked up on me, or at times becomes so sluggish that I have to reboot it. I can't say it's often, just occasionally, but it happens.

I have the Samsung series 5, scored it at Staples today and have been playing with it all day. It's very decent, but it does have Windows shine thru at times, as much as I'm a HUGE microsoft cheerleader/fanboy it's a shame that I have to agree the OS on a tablet still needs some bugs and weird design decisions ironed out. With that said I'm still selling my ipad, although I'm not sure yet if I'm keeping the Series 5 or moving up to an ivy bridge unit later on.

 

[Vetvito]

Had to run an errand at Staples today so I got a short amount of time with a few of the tablets they had there. Unfortunately the only real Windows 8 tablet was a Samsung Ativ Smart PC 500T (yes, that's really its name - although it took some doing to figure out what it was). This is an 11.6" tablet with an Atom processor, 64gig ssd and 2gb ram, offered at $599 there without the companion keyboard (I did not even know a keyboard was an option till looking it up when I got home).

First, this is one big tablet. Build quality is average, not bad, nothing special. This is really a landscape only device, not only are the proportions ridiculous in portrait, but the font scaling, at least in Internet Explorer was so bad as to be nearly unusable at smaller font sizes. This really reinforces my dislike of 16:9 displays on anything but a television.

My few minutes of using it went ok at first, things were smooth and quick, and you have to give Microsoft credit for doing things differently than everyone else; it really is the only other tablet OS that feels professional.

Unfortunately after a few minutes of browsing the web, the device locked up entirely and would not respond to any input - even pressing the physical Home button did nothing. I had to hard shut down the tablet, which proceeded to take at least 3-4 minutes, at which time I was given an error message, at which point it needed to restart again, and then proceeded to install updates. After a few more minutes of waiting, I finally walked away.

I administer a small Windows network part time at my job, so I understand this stuff; what this experience really made clear to me is how much I value the way that iOS devices are ALWAYS ready to go. That's what makes them so valuable as a device to have floating around the house or in your bag to quickly pick up and use. I ultimately gave up on Windows as my media center PC for the same reasons - I'd just want to watch a movie and too many times it was pestering me to do something.

Lastly, I can also really see now that Microsoft is going to have to do something to address the confusion that is bound to happen here. The only way that I knew this thing was running a regular version of Windows is because I saw the specs and knew that RT doesn't run on Atom processors. To poke around as a relative novice to Windows 8, how the heck are you supposed to tell? The OEM's aren't doing them any favors either; this device was marked entirely as a 'Samsung Ativ'. That's it. Go online and it turns out Samsung makes all kinds of devices under the Ativ name. Talk about confusion.

I really want this to work out for Microsoft; unfortunately this was not the greatest first experience.

Hold up, $599 for a Pro device?

 

[zhenya]

Meh, my ipad has locked up on me, or at times becomes so sluggish that I have to reboot it. I can't say it's often, just occasionally, but it happens.

The reboot itself wasn't so much the problem (although having to do that on iOS is very unusual); it was the 10 minutes I spent standing around waiting for it to restart. That's not something I want to deal with on a home tablet now that I'm used to one that never does that.

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Hold up, $599 for a Pro device?

Here you go. http://www.staples.com/Samsung-Series-5-Slate-Tablet-PC/product_990648 (You can go ahead and add 'Series 5' to the device name I gave above...)

 

[sleek881]

I don't like how the core apps like the browser, mail etc are very plain and minimalist with very few options and zero customization.

 

[Vetvito]

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[/COLOR]

Here you go. http://www.staples.com/Samsung-Series-5-Slate-Tablet-PC/product_990648 (You can go ahead and add 'Series 5' to the device name I gave above...)

That's a great deal for a full PC, why even consider RT?

 

[spinedoc77]

Hold up, $599 for a Pro device?

Yep, $599 for windows pro

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Hold up, $599 for a Pro device?

Come on, lets be factual here, 10 minute reboot? I'll admit I had to reboot mine 3 or 4 times yesterday, but reboots are EASILY under 30 seconds.

 

[Abazigal]

I don't understand why Microsoft and every other person out there is making such a huge deal out of their folding keyboard / smart cover. I mean, doesn't the ipad already have a similar 'feature' in the form of the logitech ultrathin bluetooth keyboard?

http://www.logitech.com/tablet-accessories/keyboard-cases/ultrathin-keyboard-cover

 

[Renzatic]

That thing is a pain in the ass to use. Sure, it's similar in concept, but it adds quite a bit of bulk and weight to the iPad. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a lightweight tablet in the first place.

The nicest thing about the keyboard cover isn't that it's an entirely new concept, rather it's lightweight, thin, easily removed, and doesn't get in the way.

 

[zhenya]

Come on, lets be factual here, 10 minute reboot? I'll admit I had to reboot mine 3 or 4 times yesterday, but reboots are EASILY under 30 seconds.

My experience was completely factual; I did not imply that every reboot would take 10 minutes; but that was the reality of my first experience with this platform. Again, I understand WHY it happens; I just don't want to deal with such things on what is effectively my 3rd computer. Nor do I want to deal with 3-4 reboots a day on this category of device, even if they only take 30 seconds.

I don't understand why Microsoft and every other person out there is making such a huge deal out of their folding keyboard / smart cover. I mean, doesn't the ipad already have a similar 'feature' in the form of the logitech ultrathin bluetooth keyboard?

http://www.logitech.com/tablet-accessories/keyboard-cases/ultrathin-keyboard-cover

Similar but not quite the same. The Microsoft keyboard is far thinner and can be folded back flat against the back of the device. It also draws power directly from the tablet and uses a direct connection for communication rather than bluetooth.

 

[spinedoc77]

My experience was completely factual; I did not imply that every reboot would take 10 minutes; but that was the reality of my first experience with this platform. Again, I understand WHY it happens; I just don't want to deal with such things on what is effectively my 3rd computer. Nor do I want to deal with 3-4 reboots a day on this category of device, even if they only take 30 seconds.



Similar but not quite the same. The Microsoft keyboard is far thinner and can be folded back flat against the back of the device. It also draws power directly from the tablet and uses a direct connection for communication rather than bluetooth.

I understand where you are coming from, but I still find "ten minutes" almost impossible to believe. I've had windows devices, computers, laptops, tablets, windows mobile, pocket PC, smartphones, etc for 15+ years now and I can honestly say I've never had a device take "ten minutes" to reboot. Now if you are saying it had to update thru windows update, sure that happens but I've never had that be more than a couple of minutes, but it's possible there was something very very wrong with your hardware or the hard drive.

You do have an excellent point that I cannot refute, but can only back up with hard personal experience with the Samsung Ativ. Windows at this time likes to freeze and make you do a hard reboot at times, in one day of heavy use I've rebooted 3 or 4 times, a quick 20 seconds or so each time but still it's there. I don't know if it's because of the Atom CPU or what, but certainly my Desktop and laptop at home never freeze up like that in years of using them.

Right now I see the windows 8 tablets, at least the Pro ones, as markedly superior to the ipads of the world, but I see Microsoft totally ruining that with a convoluted and buggy representation, for all the simple mindedness of Apple products I'll say one thing for them, they strive for perfection and not having things like this happen. The only thing IMO Apple dropped the ball on was the CPU/GPU they paired with the Retina display, the slowness and inadequacy of that combo really reminded me of a Microsoft like move, and it's obvious that's why 7 months later they released the ipad 4.

 

[skaertus]

Do people want a bloated Windows OS for a tablet is a better question. How long till those OS Windows/MSFT-isms start appearing?

RT could be much lighter in my opinion. By lighter I mean as lean as Windows Phone, and less like Windows desktop.

Well, I feel the opposite. I felt that Windows RT was a much better experience than iOS. iOS works well, but it is oversimplified and limited. No real multi-tasking, for instance. One thing that I liked in Windows RT is the possibility of running two apps side-by-side on the same screen, especially in desktop mode. Now I am excited to see how Windows 8 running on Surface Pro will be.

 

[Vetvito]

^ it will be real windows. No comparison between a iPad and real windows can be fair.

 

[sleek881]

Only problem with the Surface Pro is that it will be super expensive and out of reach for most consumers.

 

[Joesmith13245]

I give up, some people don't understand the difference between Consumer products with open competition and the world of MS business and enterprise products. Who said those products flop? Or are you commenting without comprehending like the others are?

This is true. However, MS will leverage their business products to gain in the consumer area with the introduction of Windows 8 pro & Surface Pro. With these products users who are looking for a device that can be used as a fully productive laptop AND a tablet will get both in one device. Only time will tell if MS's bet will pay off.

Surface Pro may be pricey, unless you plan to use it as a laptop AND tablet.

 

[spinedoc77]

Only problem with the Surface Pro is that it will be super expensive and out of reach for most consumers.

That's only true because it has the ivy bridge CPU in it, the Atom powered Pro units will be priced about the same as an ipad. I still am confused why Microsoft isn't releasing an Atom version of the Surface, I think people who are concerned about the thickness and battery life of the ivy bridge units would snap up the Atom units real quick. I have a sneaking suspicion that MS will in fact release 2 versions of the Pro, one Atom and one Ivy bridge, but that's not based on any fact.

Plus what's super expensive? The ivy bridge is supposed to be ultrabook priced, the windows ivy bridge units from samsung and asus are about 1000-1200, about par for an ultrabook. Rumor has it that the Surface Pro will be $890, although once again not based on any fact.

 

[pesos]

Only problem with the Surface Pro is that it will be super expensive and out of reach for most consumers.

Umm it's gonna have the same guts as a MBA and likely cost less...

 

[SlCKB0Y]

.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Over 1.25 billion office users? Flop?

What absolute rubbish. It's not remotely close to this number.

XBOX is a major player and,sold very well....flop?

Xbox has never been very profitable for MS. It was a money pit for years and years plus what profits they have made have been eaten into by the high number of defective units.

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So, sold out of pre orders, and people were lining up to get their Surface, how is that any indication of a flop?

This is completely meaningless without knowing the actual numbers.

I actually agree with some of the stuff you're pointing out but then you go and discredit yourself by reacting to that fool with hyperbole.

 

[jmgregory1]

Umm it's gonna have the same guts as a MBA and likely cost less...

What happens if/when it comes to market at the same price or higher than an 11" mba, not including the cost for the add-on keyboard? Do we then get to start saying MS products are all overpriced toys?

But I already can hear it, it's an enterprise solution, therefore it should cost more because it's better...right. Or that it's both a laptop and a tablet, although there aren't any real apps (because tablet apps are all toy/game apps anyway, right?) to use it in "tablet mode".

I'm guessing the departure of Sinofsky is going to signal a significant change to the Surface and even Windows 8, but I could be wrong.

 

[spinedoc77]

What happens if/when it comes to market at the same price or higher than an 11" mba, not including the cost for the add-on keyboard? Do we then get to start saying MS products are all overpriced toys?

But I already can hear it, it's an enterprise solution, therefore it should cost more because it's better...right. Or that it's both a laptop and a tablet, although there aren't any real apps (because tablet apps are all toy/game apps anyway, right?) to use it in "tablet mode".

I'm guessing the departure of Sinofsky is going to signal a significant change to the Surface and even Windows 8, but I could be wrong.

It won't be more expensive. Current ivy bridge pro units are 1000-1200 with dock, and rumor has it the surface pro will be $870, although that's just leaked pricing and not a fact. Cheapest macbook air 11" is $999 for 1.7ghz dual core i5, 64GB, HD4000 graphics, allowing $100 for the surface keyboard cover you are now at the same price. There are plenty of "apps", years and years worth of software that makes the iOS app store look like a cumberland farm on the corner.

Sinofsky leaving could be a good thing. The RT fragmentation and not having Windows 8 be seamless between touch and desktop modes are failures IMO. Maybe things are getting shaken up there.

 

[jmgregory1]

It won't be more expensive. Current ivy bridge pro units are 1000-1200 with dock, and rumor has it the surface pro will be $870, although that's just leaked pricing and not a fact. Cheapest macbook air 11" is $999 for 1.7ghz dual core i5, 64GB, HD4000 graphics, allowing $100 for the surface keyboard cover you are now at the same price. There are plenty of "apps", years and years worth of software that makes the iOS app store look like a cumberland farm on the corner.

Sinofsky leaving could be a good thing. The RT fragmentation and not having Windows 8 be seamless between touch and desktop modes are failures IMO. Maybe things are getting shaken up there.

I agree - my point is just that for so many years, a certain group of people considered Macs to be overpriced toys and now that they've come into their own and are generally both higher quality and priced competitively, the same crap they got isn't being shoveled on to the legacy manufacturers, whether it's HP, MS or Dell. Apple has shown people that you get what you pay for. Want to pay $300 for a laptop, you're going to get exactly what you paid for.

And yes, there are tons of legacy desktop programs written for Windows, but I'm certain that they're not all going to work with Surface or even Windows 8 on other platforms. And frankly it shouldn't work that way. Companies producing programs should be working towards the future, not building programs that work on any and every system, even if it's 20 years old. That build it for the lowest common denominator thwarts innovation and change.