I refuse to buy an Apple Silicon Mac with only 8 GB RAM!

[Digitalguy]

If we are talking about value for money in the MacBook line, obviously the base M1 MBA and the base 14" MBP both offer excellent value for money compared with other current Mac Books. Comparing their value with Windows notebooks is challenging since they run different operating systems and use a different CPU architecture. Given the range of hardware vendors that produce Windows laptops, there are bound to be some that appear better value for money than MacBooks based on RAM and SSD capacity. I am not sure why someone with no preference between MacOS and Windows would buy a Mac unless the Mac did offer a significant price performance advantage though but I am also not sure why someone would not have a strong preference. They are very different operating systems.

I do agree that a custom BTO Mac is often much more expensive than a standard configuration because standard configurations sell at a discount but if someone's overriding priority is weight then they should buy the M2 MBA and customize it to their requirements. I don't consider the weight saving enough to sacrifice the performance, screen quality or superior thermals.

We can both agree on the first part.
"I am not sure why someone with no preference between MacOS and Windows would buy a Mac unless the Mac did offer a significant price performance advantage"
Quiet operation and battery life. For some that's a very high priority.
"but I am also not sure why someone would not have a strong preference. They are very different operating systems."
Because both have strengths and weaknesses and it's not black or white for everyone. Personally I have an overall preference for Windows but it's not a strong one, and there are several things I prefer in MacOS.
"I don't consider the weight saving enough to sacrifice the performance, screen quality or superior thermals."
I do, since I wouldn't need the additional performance, I am perfectly fine with the thermals and screen quality is not a big deal to me (I have the 2018 iPad and the 2021 with miniled, and I barely see the screen difference in normal use).
The weight matters more or less also if you mainly use you laptop at home or if you mainly use it (a lot) on the go (and have a desktop at home). And I say this as someone who as several laptops and desktops and could easily afford any MacBook or Windows laptop, so price is not a barrier (but who also spends his money carefully).

 

[ADGrant]

We can both agree on the first part.
"I am not sure why someone with no preference between MacOS and Windows would buy a Mac unless the Mac did offer a significant price performance advantage"
Quiet operation and battery life. For some that's a very high priority.
"but I am also not sure why someone would not have a strong preference. They are very different operating systems."
Because both have strengths and weaknesses and it's not black or white for everyone. Personally I have an overall preference for Windows but it's not a strong one, and there are several things I prefer in MacOS.
"I don't consider the weight saving enough to sacrifice the performance, screen quality or superior thermals."
I do, since I wouldn't need the additional performance, I am perfectly fine with the thermals and screen quality is not a big deal to me (I have the 2018 iPad and the 2021 with miniled, and I barely see the screen difference in normal use).
The weight matters more or less also if you mainly use you laptop at home or if you mainly use it (a lot) on the go (and have a desktop at home). And I say this as someone who as several laptops and desktops and could easily afford any MacBook or Windows laptop, so price is not a barrier (but who also spends his money carefully).

Speaking of weight, I have a 12.9" iPad Pro with the Mini LED and the Magic keyboard which is what I use when traveling. In size and weight it is closer to the 14" MBP than an MBA. I have never found that an issue. I also have a 2020 27" iMac and I can clearly see the difference in screen contrast and refresh rate when compared with my iPad. I bought a 14" base MBP for my 12 yo daughter because she cares about performance and thermals and complained loudly that her Intel MacBook was too slow and ran too hot. Also, I wasn't comfortable buying a MacBook with only 8gb of RAM and a 256gb SSD.

For what it is worth, I do see some advantages to Windows. You can run it on a custom built desktop PC and there is software that is unavailable for Mac, in particular most AAA games.

 

[Digitalguy]

Speaking of weight, I have a 12.9" iPad Pro with the Mini LED and the Magic keyboard which is what I use when traveling. In size and weight it is closer to the 14" MBP than an MBA. I have never found that an issue. I also have a 2020 27" iMac and I can clearly see the difference in screen contrast and refresh rate when compared with my iPad. I bought a 14" base MBP for my 12 yo daughter because she cares about performance and thermals and complained loudly that her Intel MacBook was too slow and ran too hot. Also, I wasn't comfortable buying a MacBook with only 8gb of RAM and a 256gb SSD.

For what it is worth, I do see some advantages to Windows. You can run it on a custom built desktop PC and there is software that is unavailable for Mac, in particular most AAA games.

I have the same iPad with the MK. The weight is more in line with the 13in MBP. For me it's a home device, with a big difference however if I want to watch something around the house I just detach the tablet and then it's very light. If I want to use the 14in pro for entertainment it's a device that better stays on a desk, not comfortable to move around, especially with one hand, while doing/carrying other things (but this depends on use, I guess some people are 100% entertainment in front of their TV and 100% laptop/desktop on a desk at home, I am not, I do both).
For watching stuff I alternate between my M1 12.9 and my 12in Macbook, both extremely light and comfortable to move around while doing stuff.
For my use RAM is important and 16GB is the minimum, CPU-wise, M1 is more than enough, as is a standard quad core Intel. I don't game at all.
Windows is important as I need Windows only software for my job. Nothing intensive, but a lot of multitasking. And the way Windows manages windows and multitasking is more efficient IMO. I have no company laptop. My laptops and desktops are both for my work and my personal computing, at home or on the go.
I could even do with my 12in Macbook CPU power if it didn't get burning hot when I tried to do too many things at once.

 

[ADGrant]

Windows is important as I need Windows only software for my job. Nothing intensive, but a lot of multitasking. And the way Windows manages windows and multitasking is more efficient IMO. I have no company laptop. My laptops and desktops are both for my work and my personal computing, at home or on the go.
I could even do with my 12in Macbook CPU power if it didn't get burning hot when I tried to do too many things at once.

I need to develop Windows software for my job so there is no escaping Windows for me. For me multitasking is similar in both (cmd-tab vs ctrl-tab) but I am not a fan of how Windows does its Window management. I really don't like the Window snapping behavior particularly when I am remoting in from home via Citrix. I also don't like how Windows/Citrix handles connecting to the same session from devices with different sized screens or how it handles my iMac's 5k monitor.

The other big multitasking annoyance for me is when I try to delete a file or directory and Windows won't let me because some application or process has the file open. It won't even tell me which application or process has the file open, I have to guess. I have probably wasted years of my life because of that feature.

 

[MayaUser]

You guys are gold, you really have the patience with these kind of topics for these people
Again, these kind of topics should be made directly to Apple and not here...here you dont achieve anything in your life by doing it, only some attention for great people around here that have the patience with you, but these guys cannot change what Apple is doing because it is " a market too small"
So you have my respect

 

[TheAppleFairy]

I just download more ram when I need it.

 

[Digitalguy]

I need to develop Windows software for my job so there is no escaping Windows for me. For me multitasking is similar in both (cmd-tab vs ctrl-tab) but I am not a fan of how Windows does its Window management. I really don't like the Window snapping behavior particularly when I am remoting in from home via Citrix. I also don't like how Windows/Citrix handles connecting to the same session from devices with different sized screens or how it handles my iMac's 5k monitor.

The other big multitasking annoyance for me is when I try to delete a file or directory and Windows won't let me because some application or process has the file open. It won't even tell me which application or process has the file open, I have to guess. I have probably wasted years of my life because of that feature.

I don't use Citrix, so I guess I am not exposed to those issues. I also rarely split screen since I use at least 2 monitors. I very rarely have the issue you mention with deleting files.
The issues I have with MacOS is when I have many Word files open or many Fiinder Windows open it's a mess. Mission control looks like a big messy house, while in Windows you have windows of the same type grouped together in the taskbar (which I consider much superior to the dock), with small previews just by hovering over the icon in the taskbar. For me it's many times more efficient. Yesterday I did a Mac-only challenge and I was so glad to go back to Windows in the evening....

 

[EcthelionOftheFountain]

Apple should put 12gb RAM on the base model.

Nice middle ground imo.

Many people who complain 8gb is not enough, 16gb would be too much for them. So give them 12gb- which is probably the right amount they need.

We do know Apple can put 12gb because the unified memory in these M series chips is LPDDR5. We know 12gb LPDDR5 chips exist because there are phones with 12gb LPDDR5.

So why not 12gb in the base model ?

 

[Technerd108]

Apple should put 12gb RAM on the base model.

Nice middle ground imo.

Many people who complain 8gb is not enough, 16gb would be too much for them. So give them 12gb- which is probably the right amount they need.

We do know Apple can put 12gb because the unified memory in these M series chips is LPDDR5. We know 12gb LPDDR5 chips exist because there are phones with 12gb LPDDR5.

So why not 12gb in the base model ?

It is a great idea but it would ruin Apple's pricing ladder and perceived value. They want an 8gb model that does just enough that the device functions fast but not enough for their to be much headroom so your are enticed to buy more ram because it is only a couple hundred more and gives you that headroom and extra value.

Think about it if the base model Macbook air came with 12 or 16gb of ram at the base would most people buy more ram? A lot of Windows devices do this.

I do think if they did offer 12gb ram they would sell a lot more base model devices. I think Apple knows it has a captive audience and capitalizes on that fact by offering a low spec base model to push the consumer to spend more.

Hopefully one day they will offer 16gb as a base config on air devices but I am afraid when that day will come 16gb will be just as useful as 8gb and most people will want 24gb or 32gb.

 

[ArkSingularity]

It is a great idea but it would ruin Apple's pricing ladder and perceived value. They want an 8gb model that does just enough that the device functions fast but not enough for their to be much headroom so your are enticed to buy more ram because it is only a couple hundred more and gives you that headroom and extra value.

Think about it if the base model Macbook air came with 12 or 16gb of ram at the base would most people buy more ram? A lot of Windows devices do this.

I do think if they did offer 12gb ram they would sell a lot more base model devices. I think Apple knows it has a captive audience and capitalizes on that fact by offering a low spec base model to push the consumer to spend more.

Hopefully one day they will offer 16gb as a base config on air devices but I am afraid when that day will come 16gb will be just as useful as 8gb and most people will want 24gb or 32gb.

I've long thought this was Apple's strategy and they are very good at this sort of price ladder organization on their product line. That being said, one thing I have also recently noticed is that most of the 16GB models require you to custom build them on order and aren't typically held in stock at retailers. There are exceptions, and occasionally they will stock 16GB versions with various other upgrades, but the majority of the upgraded SKUs that you can purchase same-day at a store have storage upgrades rather than RAM upgrades.

For better or for worse, the majority of Macs in the hands of everyday users have 8GB of RAM. I'd like to think Apple at least has a pretty strong incentive to make sure that these perform well (otherwise it is harmful to their brand perception). They also have an incentive to try to get the folks who are building to order to upgrade, and they'll have an even stronger incentive to push users to buy new Macs once they upgrade the base models to use 16GB of RAM.

My guess is that they will probably be phasing out 8GB Macs completely on the Pro lineup in the next year or two. 8GB will probably linger a little longer on the Air (possibly for a few more years), but we will see.

 

[Technerd108]

I've long thought this was Apple's strategy and they are very good at this sort of price ladder organization on their product line. That being said, one thing I have also recently noticed is that most of the 16GB models require you to custom build them on order and aren't typically held in stock at retailers. There are exceptions, and occasionally they will stock 16GB versions with various other upgrades, but the majority of the upgraded SKUs that you can purchase same-day at a store have storage upgrades rather than RAM upgrades.

For better or for worse, the majority of Macs in the hands of everyday users have 8GB of RAM. I'd like to think Apple at least has a pretty strong incentive to make sure that these perform well (otherwise it is harmful to their brand perception). They also have an incentive to try to get the folks who are building to order to upgrade, and they'll have an even stronger incentive to push users to buy new Macs once they upgrade the base models to use 16GB of RAM.

My guess is that they will probably be phasing out 8GB Macs completely on the Pro lineup in the next year or two. 8GB will probably linger a little longer on the Air (possibly for a few more years), but we will see.

I completely agree with you.

 

[Tagbert]

I've long thought this was Apple's strategy and they are very good at this sort of price ladder organization on their product line. That being said, one thing I have also recently noticed is that most of the 16GB models require you to custom build them on order and aren't typically held in stock at retailers. There are exceptions, and occasionally they will stock 16GB versions with various other upgrades, but the majority of the upgraded SKUs that you can purchase same-day at a store have storage upgrades rather than RAM upgrades.

For better or for worse, the majority of Macs in the hands of everyday users have 8GB of RAM. I'd like to think Apple at least has a pretty strong incentive to make sure that these perform well (otherwise it is harmful to their brand perception). They also have an incentive to try to get the folks who are building to order to upgrade, and they'll have an even stronger incentive to push users to buy new Macs once they upgrade the base models to use 16GB of RAM.

My guess is that they will probably be phasing out 8GB Macs completely on the Pro lineup in the next year or two. 8GB will probably linger a little longer on the Air (possibly for a few more years), but we will see.

That is a compounding factor and is a particular problem for people in countries where the only options available are the base prebuilt models and BTO is not an option. A regular contributor here (Ian) is from Indonesia and they have this problem. I don't if if it is Apple or third parties but only the base model is available. You can imagine that they really want Apple to change that base config.

 

[ArkSingularity]

That is a compounding factor and is a particular problem for people in countries where the only options available are the base prebuilt models and BTO is not an option. A regular contributor here (Ian) is from Indonesia and they have this problem. I don't if if it is Apple or third parties but only the base model is available. You can imagine that they really want Apple to change that base config.

Yea a lot of people are starting to have that problem. 8GB used to be plenty for a base config (and it's still enough for the everyday user I suppose). But Mac OS is starting to get a little heavier and it's making a lot of people worry about how futureproof this config is.

In some of these countries, even the base config is difficult to get My company has to go out of its way to provide Macs to some of its overseas contractors because they are too difficult for them to be bought there.

 

[theluggage]

Many people who complain 8gb is not enough, 16gb would be too much for them. So give them 12gb- which is probably the right amount they need.

There's no point in a 12GB tier. If it had anything to do with the actual cost of RAM chips, the difference in price between 12GB and 16GB would be about $20 on a $1200+ computer. it would just be false economy to make a Mac with less than 16GB except maybe the cheapest MacBook Air.

It's already common to see 16GB as standard on comparable PC laptops (i.e. > $1000, ultraportable with LPDDR RAM).
...but it's nothing to do with the cost of the chips, and everything to do with Apple's pricing strategy.

16GB of DDR4 RAM in DIMM form costs about $60 retail - Apple wants $200 to upgrade an Intel Mini (which uses standard DDR 4 DIMMs) from 8 to 16GB. LPDDR is harder to compare prices on because its not really sold retail - but it's not going to be that much more expensive and Apple are one of the biggest wholesale customers so they'll be getting the lowest possible price.

Those upgrades are almost pure profit for Apple, and help them offer an artificially low price for the base models. And if they encourage people to buy from the Apple Store rather than third parties, Apple gets to keep even more of the money... Of course, that sucks if you don't have access to the Apple Store - but from Apple's POV those markets can't count for much, otherwise the local dealers would import 16GB models.

Apple may stop making 8GB computers if and when the supply of the 4GB LPDDR chips dries up (unless they think they can get away with using a single 8GB chip and halving the bandwidth... but Apple would never make that sort of compromise, would they?)

They had an opportunity to go with 16GB base, 24GB optional with the M2 Air and 13" MBP - and didn't take it.

My guess is that they will probably be phasing out 8GB Macs completely on the Pro lineup in the next year or two.

Well, minor miracle that they never made an 8GB version of the M1 Pro or a 16GB version of the M1 Max (presumably the chips just don't go that small) so that's almost true already. Cue discussion about whether the 13" MBP is part of the "Pro lineup".

 

[lostPod]

Then buy from the Refurb Store https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished

16 gb M1 Macbook Airs and Mac Minis are there for the price of base spec, so you're saving a lot of money buying refurbished instead of new, and Apple treats their refurb items with the same quality as new items. You won't be able to tell it's refurbished or not because of how good Apple treats them.

Love the refurb store -- always had great results!

 

[jdb8167]

There's no point in a 12GB tier. If it had anything to do with the actual cost of RAM chips, the difference in price between 12GB and 16GB would be about $20 on a $1200+ computer. it would just be false economy to make a Mac with less than 16GB except maybe the cheapest MacBook Air.

They could always go for 12 GB/24 GB tiers instead of 8 GB/16 GB/24 GB. If they could manage that at the same price points as the current 8 GB/16 GB tiers then I don't think anyone would complain.

 

[pshufd]

They could always go for 12 GB/24 GB tiers instead of 8 GB/16 GB/24 GB. If they could manage that at the same price points as the current 8 GB/16 GB tiers then I don't think anyone would complain.

24 GB is perfect for me in a Mini. I have 16 in mine and generally run about 13 GB but I run a bunch of my programs on a 2014 iMac so that I don't swap.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple does make M1 laptops with a base configuration of 16gb of RAM which are frequently discounted. The base 14" MBP. The answer is simple, if you want 16gb of RAM, buy a real MacBook Pro, not the 13" MBP which is basically a MBA in the old 13" MBP case.

Yep agreed. I really don’t know why the 13” is still around. It’s a HORRIBLE product IMO.

 

[Ethosik]

The problem is that some people want the more compact size and lighter weight of the MBA but need 16 GB of RAM.

(And some also need a bit more storage while they are at it. But that’s a whole ‘nother discussion.)

Some people don’t need 16GB. I don’t understand this “my way or nothing” attitude. 8GB of RAM is still useful. I have a system with it and it can still use Final Cut Pro and Photoshop well for that system’s needs. Why force a price increase for those that don’t need 16GB? Or why force sacrificing other areas of the system to keep the base price the same with 16GB?

 

[Ethosik]

For what it is worth, I do see some advantages to Windows. You can run it on a custom built desktop PC and there is software that is unavailable for Mac, in particular most AAA games.

Agreed. All I use Windows for is majority of my gaming and software development. I use macs for everything else. Even light gaming like Factorio. That’s why I have two Windows desktops, and 6 macs various desktop and laptops.

 

[ArkSingularity]

Yep agreed. I really don’t know why the 13” is still around. It’s a HORRIBLE product IMO.

Ehh, I think it's still a mixed bag in some ways, it actually does have a niche in a very specific segment of the market. It's a good laptop for the folks who want an ultraportable MacBook Air sized machine but want to eek out a little extra performance without sacrificing battery life. For the folks who need a fan to sustain moderately intensive workloads but otherwise want a 13" sized machine, it's basically the perfect MacBook.

I'll absolutely agree that I don't think it really still classifies as a Pro compared to the new machines though (and for a lot of people, the Air is probably a better deal for what they need anyway). Especially being that it still has strange limitations like only being able to use one external monitor (something I wouldn't have expected to see on a "Pro" level machine). I wouldn't be surprised if Apple phases it out completely in the next year or so.

 

[ahurst]

I don't use Citrix, so I guess I am not exposed to those issues. I also rarely split screen since I use at least 2 monitors. I very rarely have the issue you mention with deleting files.
The issues I have with MacOS is when I have many Word files open or many Fiinder Windows open it's a mess. Mission control looks like a big messy house, while in Windows you have windows of the same type grouped together in the taskbar (which I consider much superior to the dock), with small previews just by hovering over the icon in the taskbar. For me it's many times more efficient. Yesterday I did a Mac-only challenge and I was so glad to go back to Windows in the evening....

I think it's hard to compare this stuff objectively from an "easy to use" standpoint, because so much of what makes sense to us is based on the little patterns and reflexes and mental shortcuts we build up over years of use.

Any time I need to use Windows for an extended amount of time there are a dozen little things that drive me bonkers, but a good deal of it is that macOS behaves a certain way, and when I'm trying to get something done and Windows behaves in a radically different way (e.g. its implementation of 'spaces' not letting you automatically switch to another app's space by clicking its icon in the taskbar, its insistance on foregrounding *all* windows of an app when you click on a single one) it's annoying, because I've got to interrupt my workflow and spend extra cognitive resources suppressing those reflexes and slow down my productivity. I'm sure you feel a similar way when you're working on macOS long-term and a key command or window management option doesn't work right the same way it does on Windows.

 

[Tagbert]

Ehh, I think it's still a mixed bag in some ways, it actually does have a niche in a very specific segment of the market. It's a good laptop for the folks who want an ultraportable MacBook Air sized machine but want to eek out a little extra performance without sacrificing battery life. For the folks who need a fan to sustain moderately intensive workloads but otherwise want a 13" sized machine, it's basically the perfect MacBook.

I'll absolutely agree that I don't think it really still classifies as a Pro compared to the new machines though (and for a lot of people, the Air is probably a better deal for what they need anyway). Especially being that it still has strange limitations like only being able to use one external monitor (something I wouldn't have expected to see on a "Pro" level machine). I wouldn't be surprised if Apple phases it out completely in the next year or so.

I think that the fact that they didn't do any design changes to the 13" MBP with the M2 upgrade suggests that they don't have long term plans for that model and didn't want to invest in it. It is likely a placeholder for a price point and will be replaced in the next year or so.

 

[Technerd108]

I think it's hard to compare this stuff objectively from an "easy to use" standpoint, because so much of what makes sense to us is based on the little patterns and reflexes and mental shortcuts we build up over years of use.

Any time I need to use Windows for an extended amount of time there are a dozen little things that drive me bonkers, but a good deal of it is that macOS behaves a certain way, and when I'm trying to get something done and Windows behaves in a radically different way (e.g. its implementation of 'spaces' not letting you automatically switch to another app's space by clicking its icon in the taskbar, its insistance on foregrounding *all* windows of an app when you click on a single one) it's annoying, because I've got to interrupt my workflow and spend extra cognitive resources suppressing those reflexes and slow down my productivity. I'm sure you feel a similar way when you're working on macOS long-term and a key command or window management option doesn't work right the same way it does on Windows.

To me that is the entire point of using multiple Operating systems. I want to keep my mind flexible and not get stuck in wanting to do things in any particular way. I also like change as using one system for too long gets boring to me.

There have been studies on Alzheimer's and they think that doing things like taking walk with differing routes helps the mind with cognition. So a little relearning wastes some of your time or focus but ultimately it keeps you sharper.

However I completely understand your point of view when I forget how something works on a system I haven't used for a while. Lol

 

[Technerd108]

I think MBP 13" is just a profit center for Apple. The old chasis is probably very cheap for them to produce as is all the ancient internals like screen, speakers and keyboard.

If you put a laptop cooler on the bottom of a M2 MBA then you essentially have the same cooling as the MBP 13". There are ways to cool down the M2 MBA but no way to change the ancient design of the 13" MBP.