I visited the Apple Store today and tried out the new MacBook Pro keyboards...

[257Loner]

I don't remember where I read this, but one suggestion I read said that Apple is pursuing greater homogeneity between Macs and iPhones and iPads. It seems they've pursued a greater homogeneity not only among software features and appearances, but also among hardware features. MacBooks have seen a downward trend in key travel, which someone in this topic said would not have bothered people accustomed to software keyboards on iPhones and iPads. MacBooks have acquired the notch (even as the iPhone moves away from it). And the MacBook Air has only had 2 USB-C ports for a while now.

Now, I'll argue that the iPhonification of the Mac has made its hardware worse. MacBooks have not benefited from less key travel, even if some software keyboard users might not mind. The notch provides 0 benefits to MacBook users. As the iPhone moves away from the notch, the MacBook notch will be seen as an annoying fad that shoehorned its way into a product that never needed it. Thirdly, offering only 2 USB-C ports on the MacBook Air is very stingy. Not having any I/O on the right side of your MacBook Air is like not having a car door on the right side of your car. It's very inconvenient.

I will admit that one benefit of the iPhonification of the Mac has been the transition to Apple Silicon. People don't want laptops to cook their laps because they run too hot. People want more battery life. People want a fast processor. Apple Silicon has done well by providing all of those benefits.

But as I've argued, the iPhonification of the Mac has not been a complete improvement. It's been more of a one step forward, two steps back sort of change. (Yes, indeed, "two steps back", for Macintosh software has also lost features as it was made more similar to iOS software.) As someone who respects what the original 1984 Macintosh stood for, and was enamored with the beautiful iMac G3 at his school growing up, the Macintosh ideal will continue to live on in the hearts of old school fans before the iPhone came about and changed everything.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

If there are no standards of excellence in keyboards that we can agree upon, then it will not be possible for us to discuss the progress or regress of excellence in keyboards. For example, if I said sitting in a comfy chair is preferable to sitting on a rock, but you said "everyone likes different things; some people like sitting on rocks", then there would be no agreed-upon standard of comfort we could discuss among seating options.

Luckily, keyboards are easy to review. One standard of excellence in keyboards is key travel. Comfortable keyboards have more of it. Uncomfortable keyboards have less of it. Apple's keyboards have less and less lately, and therefore are worse. If you want a more comfortable keyboard, Apple's newest keyboards, objectively, ain't got none.

You’re just saying your opinion is a fact.
Your opinion is absolutely not a fact.
Personally, I really liked the butterfly keyboard… Until it stopped working and I had to have it replaced four times.
But I absolutely love the new M2 MacBook Air keyboard, even more than the butterfly keyboard, and even more than my really old super mushy 2009 white MacBook keyboard.
Saying that more key travel equals a better keyboard is just your opinion.
Some loved the almost haptic feedback feeling keyboards of the 12 inch MacBook.
Some want to feel like they’re pushing buttons on top of a fluffy piece of bread.
Everyone’s slightly different, but I think Apple’s current keyboards are fine for most people.
Their right at a medium between the super low travel and clicky butterfly keyboards that lots loved, and the super mushy scissor mechanism keyboards of the older MacBooks.
If you really need an absolutely fantastic keyboard that fits all of your qualifications, you should not be looking at the one that comes built into any laptop or one that Apple makes.

 

[filmbuff]

By far the best laptop keyboard I've ever used was a Powerbook 1400CS. Damn that thing was nice. I wish there was a way to transplant that keyboard into a modern computer. I find the new M chip Macbooks a little disappointing. The keys feel mushy even compared to my desktop Magic Keyboard (gen 3) which isn't that great itself tbh.

 

[257Loner]

You’re just saying your opinion is a fact.
Your opinion is absolutely not a fact.
Personally, I really liked the butterfly keyboard… Until it stopped working and I had to have it replaced four times.
But I absolutely love the new M2 MacBook Air keyboard, even more than the butterfly keyboard, and even more than my really old super mushy 2009 white MacBook keyboard.
Saying that more key travel equals a better keyboard is just your opinion.
Some loved the almost haptic feedback feeling keyboards of the 12 inch MacBook.
Some want to feel like they’re pushing buttons on top of a fluffy piece of bread.
Everyone’s slightly different, but I think Apple’s current keyboards are fine for most people.
Their right at a medium between the super low travel and clicky butterfly keyboards that lots loved, and the super mushy scissor mechanism keyboards of the older MacBooks.
If you really need an absolutely fantastic keyboard that fits all of your qualifications, you should not be looking at the one that comes built into any laptop or one that Apple makes.

You'll have to look very hard to find where I said, especially in that particular post you quoted, that my opinion is fact. Rather, I argued the exact opposite: That for us to have a productive conversation about whether keyboards have gotten better or worse, we must first "agree" on some "standard of excellence" such as key travel, which is a fantastic objective measurement of how much depth each key has. And we must "agree" on a "standard of excellence" in keyboards before we discuss them because, as you said: "Everyone's slightly different".

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

I'm going to enrage everyone. If you really care about your laptop keyboard feel, get an external keyboard or just learn to live with what you got. Why?

The keyboard you have after a few years is not the same as the keyboard you started with. It's quite common for people to dislike keyboards they loved when they were new or vice versa. That nice firmness you loved could degrade into either a wobble or a mush.

This is where I'm at. I'm OK with my M1's keyboard, but I preferred it when it was new and had crisp actions. It now rattles a bit when I type, which really irks me as a mechanical keyboard snob.

Also, you have no control over exactly what keyboard you're going to get. The same model is often built with components from different suppliers. Sometimes there are variations between sources, but even when they come from the same supplier, batches can vary from one to the other.

This is all very true, but also using the models that are in the store for five minutes is not a good representation at all.
There’s a reason why there’s a 15 day or whatever it is return policy, store usage isn’t the same as actual usage.
The removal of the home button is a good example, I knew a lot of people who played with iPhone X in the store, and thought the removal of the home button was completely ridiculous, and absolutely hated it… Until they actually bought a phone and were used to it within the day.

 

[smirking]

This is all very true, but also using the models that are in the store for five minutes is not a good representation at all.
There’s a reason why there’s a 15 day or whatever it is return policy, store usage isn’t the same as actual usage.
The removal of the home button is a good example, I knew a lot of people who played with iPhone X in the store, and thought the removal of the home button was completely ridiculous, and absolutely hated it… Until they actually bought a phone and were used to it within the day.

A few people in this thread have commented about how we all have a tendency to judge what we're currently used to as the ideal just because we're used to it. Most of us are pretty emotionally biased in this way.

I was too until I sought to justify my former obsession with mechanical keyboards by doing a series of typing tests to measure how much better I could type on my favorite board vs the worst one in my posession. The results surprised me. I took 5 minute typing tests on each. There was barely a difference between my favorite board and the most garbage keyboard with stiffened rubber domes.

This isn't to say that every keyboard is fine for anyone and they just need to learn how to use it better, but we shouldn't make definitive judgements based on short exposures. Some people are much better athletes than others and have an easier time adapting their movements to new situations. Some people are better artists. Some can analyze tones or compose music better. Besides having different physical strengths and limitations, we each also have differing cognitive abilities to adapt to our environments.

 

[Beau10]

I have a MacBook Air M1. I had a MacBook Air 2015/2017 (non-"butterfly") before I sold after after I purchased the MacBook Air M1. Both the keyboards felt exactly the same to me.

A mechanical keyboard will always feel better than a laptop keyboard. But Apple hasn't changed the keyboard at all.

As someone who spent some 15 years on mechanical keyboards (IBM Model M / AE2), I agree that it feels better, but I disagree that it's actually a superior tool.

IME the best keyboard is the one you have to work least at. Mechanical keyboards are great insofar the mechanism has excellent feedback for when you type 'through' the strike point without bottoming out. So your fingers can fly with reckless abandon. The advantage here is they require less precision to use without strain. The disadvantage is they require more work by definition, both force and travel are greater than a modern Macbook keyboard. Considerably so.

People decrying the latest keyboards simply need to adjust their typing force. The "typing on concrete" is an indication a person is typing too hard, which of course will happen naturally without taking time to adjust. As an older programmer who has been typing since '82 I was even able to do 90wpm steady and burst 150 wpm on the butterfly keyboard for years without a hint of rsi.

 

[Danfango]

Wait, are you saying these Cherry keyboards are made to feel like the T420/X220-era pre-chiclet ThinkPad keyboards? My last laptop was an X220 running macOS and that keyboard was something special (also have an X230 which is sadly much worse), would be very interested in that Cherry board if it’s got that pre-chiclet Lenovo feeling (and key spacing/shape).

Yep that. Feels virtually the same but has standard PC layout.

 

[Mr. Awesome]

The notch provides 0 benefits to MacBook users

Really? I think being able to interact with an app’s toolbar in full screen without accidentally causing the Menu Bad to shift the whole thing down is pretty convenient.

Plus the rounded corners are worth it.

 

[257Loner]

Really? I think being able to interact with an app’s toolbar in full screen without accidentally causing the Menu Bad to shift the whole thing down is pretty convenient.

Plus the rounded corners are worth it.

That's not a benefit of the notch but of the extra screen real estate added above the 16:10 portion of the screen, which they could still do without the notch.

Plus, it's really creepy to have that large notch with a large camera always looking at you while you're on your laptop, as if you're always being watched.

 

[IconDRT]

Something oddly ironic about this comment ... from a pianist 😂

I can guarantee you mcdevidr isn’t tickling the ivories on a +10yo Steinway with outdated tuning pins, bridge, pinblock, hammers, or pedals.

 

[Isamilis]

Step 1: User posts new thread, expressing strong, outlier opinion with a subtle negative world view. Frame view as "new versus old," with a handwave about how a feature/an object/a process/an idea was better at some point in the past compared to the present. Claim to be an anti-consumer, unwilling to purchase a product due to a single perceived fault.
Step 2: Receive immediate, over-the-top pushback from hair-trigger, over-invested audience.
Step 3: Quickly reply, re-framing argument as an objective truth—post an avalanche of links (youtube influencers, etc.) claiming they support your position. Don't actually watch videos to confirm that they're even relevant and, for the most part, stop posting at this point. There's no need for further interaction, because...
Step 4: ...Off to the races! Guaranteed 2, 3, 4, 5, even 10 pages of comments will follow as the host consumes itself.

Every single time! Topic after topic, the pattern is identical.

Given the massive variety of keyboards, down to specific qualities of key travel, clickiness, key surface shape, etc. how would it not be an immediate truth that typing styles, preferences, goals (balancing form versus functional considerations) would be immeasurably broad?

But yes, please, let's reductio ad absurdum this reality down to a single argument. That this thought process advanced beyond "that's nice, I hope you find a keyboard that works for you" is boggling.

Step 5: people start ignoring the thread and leave few people argument to each other.

 

[257Loner]

Step 5: people start ignoring the thread and leave few people argument to each other.

I've perused online forums since High School, and there are few interlocutors you'll meet who will enrich you with kind, knowledgeable, and gracious advice or perspective. Sometimes, however, participating is worth the risk of meeting unkind conversationalists if there's a chance to sharpen the mind on a particular topic.

 

[tcatsninfan]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

Hard disagree. The only metric you mention in your comments is key travel, but as also say in your other messages the idea of a "good" keyboard is a bit subjective. It's true that key travel is one metric that can be used to measure...key travel, but not everyone agrees that more key travel always equals better typing.

Pretty much everyone agrees that the butterfly keyboards were a terrible decision, but all of that is in the past. The current keyboards on both the Pro and the Air are excellent. They may not have as much key travel as back in 2015, but they still feel very solid and reliable. For example, you can still press the keys from any side/angle and the key will uniformly press down. Many Windows laptop keyboards won't do this, and in fact the really terrible laptops have keys that can even get jammed under the laptop frame on some occasions.

Saying that you're going to buy another 2015 MBP instead of buying an M1 or M2 MBP, solely based on the keyboard (since the M1 and M2 MBP have all the other features you mentioned), is just silly. Apple silicon blows the Intel processors out of the water.

 

[257Loner]

Saying that you're going to buy another 2015 MBP instead of buying an M1 or M2 MBP, solely based on the keyboard (since the M1 and M2 MBP have all the other features you mentioned), is just silly. Apple silicon blows the Intel processors out of the water.

Apple Silicon chips have certainly received good reviews for their performance. But my Intel Core i7 processor in my early 2015 MacBook Pro runs internet/email/contacts/calendar apps, productivity software, widgets such as calc and dictionary, and iLife apps such as Music and Photos with such speed as I've never seen before. Most can get by with a 7-8 year old laptop like most can get by with a 7-8 year old car.

 

[Mr. Awesome]

Apple Silicon chips have certainly received good reviews for their performance. But my Intel Core i7 processor in my early 2015 MacBook Pro runs internet/email/contacts/calendar apps, productivity software, widgets such as calc and dictionary, and iLife apps such as Music and Photos with such speed as I've never seen before. Most can get by with a 7-8 year old laptop like most can get by with a 7-8 year old car.

Yes, and I could render a Pixar film on a vacuum-tube computer given unlimited time, but why would I when better tools exist? For those that need them, the new chips are very much worth it, even if they “could get by” with a 7-8 year old laptop.

 

[257Loner]

Yes, and I could render a Pixar film on a vacuum-tube computer given unlimited time, but why would I when better tools exist? For those that need them, the new chips are very much worth it, even if they “could get by” with a 7-8 year old laptop.

Because most cannot afford expensive upgrades willy-nilly.

 

[IconDRT]

I held onto my 2015 MacBook Pro for as long as I could, and eventually picked up a 2019 in 2020. I wanted one final Intel Mac that could still run Mojave and also run the Windows VMs I need. At some point, I plan on an AS Mac. Point though is that my 2019 rMBP runs much faster for things I do (32GB and faster 2TB storage help a lot) and as much as I love/miss the 2015 rMBP keyboard (and to be honest I think the 2012 rMBP keyboard was even better), I’d rather have the snappier performance, brighter display, faster I/O with TB3 with a butterfly keyboard even at the expense of MagSafe and 2015 keyboard. I agree that the 2015 is still a capable daily driver for the average person not doing much in the way of content production, but why handicap yourself by sticking with a now 8yo laptop when the latest MBPs are superior in every way (notch notwithstanding). Even if you consider the latest MBP keyboard inferior to the 2015 keyboard, it’s definite not the compromise butterfly keyboard would represent.

 

[dmccloud]

Apple Silicon chips have certainly received good reviews for their performance. But my Intel Core i7 processor in my early 2015 MacBook Pro runs internet/email/contacts/calendar apps, productivity software, widgets such as calc and dictionary, and iLife apps such as Music and Photos with such speed as I've never seen before. Most can get by with a 7-8 year old laptop like most can get by with a 7-8 year old car.

If that 8 year old i7 meets your definition of "speed as I've never seen before", then any current equivalent processor on the market (Intel i7, AMD Ryzen 7, or Apple Silicon) would likely blow past that machine as if it was standing still. There's also the issue of software compatibility and OS support. More often than not, newer software will require either a newer processor or a newer version of the operating system. As older machines reach the end of their support cycle, it will become harder to run the applications you use on a daily basis - that principle holds true regardless of CPU manufacturer or operating system.

 

[1BadManVan]

I generally am not a big fan of most laptop keyboards but absolutely love the new Mac keyboards.

 

[257Loner]

I held onto my 2015 MacBook Pro for as long as I could, and eventually picked up a 2019 in 2020. I wanted one final Intel Mac that could still run Mojave and also run the Windows VMs I need. At some point, I plan on an AS Mac. Point though is that my 2019 rMBP runs much faster for things I do (32GB and faster 2TB storage help a lot) and as much as I love/miss the 2015 rMBP keyboard (and to be honest I think the 2012 rMBP keyboard was even better), I’d rather have the snappier performance, brighter display, faster I/O with TB3 with a butterfly keyboard even at the expense of MagSafe and 2015 keyboard. I agree that the 2015 is still a capable daily driver for the average person not doing much in the way of content production, but why handicap yourself by sticking with a now 8yo laptop when the latest MBPs are superior in every way (notch notwithstanding). Even if you consider the latest MBP keyboard inferior to the 2015 keyboard, it’s definite not the compromise butterfly keyboard would represent.

I really appreciate how, although you have different priorities than me, the way you describe MacBook Pros tells me that we're seeing the same things.

 

[petej]

When your first keyboard/computer was a Sinclair ZX81 then any movement is a plus. Oh wait a minute my iPhone screen has about the same amount of movement.

Typing this on an old HP keyboard plugged into a Retina.

 

[darngooddesign]

Honestly, you are better off getting a good non-Apple keyboard instead of sacrificing the benefits of the newest MacBooks. This comparison talks about mechanical keyboards, but there are probably good and light low-profile ones as well.

The best mechanical keyboards to buy right now

Our pick of the best boards we’ve tested.

www.theverge.com

Just like how photographers and hobby photographers accept they will have to carry a dedicated camera to get better photos than their phone, or gamers will carry something like a Steam Deck, you may have to accept carrying a keyboard.

 

[ignatius345]

Personally, my favourite has to be the G3 iBook and Pismo Powerbook keyboards.

I had both of those computers and did not care for the way the whole thing flexed down when you typed. The switches were all sitting on a circuit board held in place with little clips. It WAS easy to clean out, for sure, and it did have good key travel.

My favorite is probably the 11" MacBook Air. It had good rigidity but also generous key travel. (That was the perfect little ultraportable writing Mac, and it's never been properly replaced in the lineup.)

 

[jwdsail]

A few people in this thread have commented about how we all have a tendency to judge what we're currently used to as the ideal just because we're used to it. Most of us are pretty emotionally biased in this way.

I was too until I sought to justify my former obsession with mechanical keyboards by doing a series of typing tests to measure how much better I could type on my favorite board vs the worst one in my posession. The results surprised me. I took 5 minute typing tests on each. There was barely a difference between my favorite board and the most garbage keyboard with stiffened rubber domes.

This isn't to say that every keyboard is fine for anyone and they just need to learn how to use it better, but we shouldn't make definitive judgements based on short exposures. Some people are much better athletes than others and have an easier time adapting their movements to new situations. Some people are better artists. Some can analyze tones or compose music better. Besides having different physical strengths and limitations, we each also have differing cognitive abilities to adapt to our environments.

I'd like to see a similar test, but where the metric isn't typing speed, but comfort?

Keep typing on each, until you have to tap out. Until you're, "screw this I'm done with this one".

That would be more useful data than typing speed for most everyone, outside of people doing data entry professionally, I'd think?

Someone who's a proficient typist more than likely can grind out WPM for 5 min fairly consistently across input devices, as long as the starting hand/finger positions are all relatively close?

Long-term comfort, however is going to factor in several ergonomic factors, including key travel, hand position, etc...