If The Mac Pro is Dead - What next?

[GermanyChris]

I'm in this boat right now...

I have a self built PC, it was 2.4Ghz C2D on an Intel Mobo with 4GB of RAM, with a GTS 250 with 1GB of RAM. Being dated as it was I dropped in a quad core Xeon (socket compatible) at 2.83Ghz and 8GB of RAM.

After kicking around in Ubuntu & Mint for a while, (running windows in a VM), I wanted that 'nix feel but with native popular program compatibility, so I bought a copy of Lion and I've been off to the races, happy with the UI/UX for the most part. Extremely happy with the performance and platform compatibility.

Now I'm in between do I want to buy a new MP if they ever get announced/released or do I want to a build a workstation class equivalent (with a dual Xeon board, ECC memory, etc), in which case I may as well buy a MP.

Aside from the back and forth going in this thread, the one point of anxiety I have about my hack is OS upgradeability.

I think I may buy a "bare" MP, if a 2012 model ever gets announced and just pimp out the memory, video (if hopefully supported) and storage on my own.

This thread has not alleviated any of my confusion

It wasn't difficult to go from 10.6 to 10.7..but it wasn't as easy as on my Mac's..

 

[goMac]

actually no..

If you want to change the processors in and LGA 771 MP 1,1 you have to use the 51xx for dual core, 54xx for quad but there was also a 53xx series and I believe one more .

with a hack, I could have used any of the LGA 771 processors..

That's not true. I had a high end Intel motherboard, and could not jump from the Core Duo to the Core 2 Duo. Both had the same socket. It's not just a matter of the physical socket, even on custom built PCs.

with a hack I can use any of the single or dual socket MOBO's e3, e5, 1155, 1156, 2011, 1366. and less easily any AMD. I stayed 1155 because of Ivy Bridge. My MOBO will be capable of PCI 3 with a flash (GA-P67A-D3-B3) and dual graphics cards and it's not particularly expensive. This is what I mean with flexibility.

Again, no.

The attraction for Hackintosh isn't for the iMac set, it the single processor MP set.

Again, you're preaching to the wrong audience. We're a set of people who place a dollar value on our time, and need something solidly reliable.

If this were the iMac forum, you'd have a point.

There is a place for a MacPro no doubt and I'll probably order one if it comes out, but to insist that a Hack is somehow inferior is not true.

I don't know if inferior is the right word, but there are certainly very good reasons to choose a Mac Pro over a Hackintosh.

 

[GermanyChris]

That's not true. I had a high end Intel motherboard, and could not jump from the Core Duo to the Core 2 Duo. Both had the same socket. It's not just a matter of the physical socket, even on custom built PCs.



Again, no.



Again, you're preaching to the wrong audience. We're a set of people who place a dollar value on our time, and need something solidly reliable.

If this were the iMac forum, you'd have a point.



I don't know if inferior is the right word, but there are certainly very good reasons to choose a Mac Pro over a Hackintosh.

You misunderstand, I'm not trying to convince you, you're convinced..

"The first adherents to a creed prove nothing against it"


This tell's me that A: you didn't try very hard or B: you're not telling the role truth.

Again no what?

obviously not because this has been an ongoing conversation since my morning, call it 12 hrs. You very much over rate the value of your time. The idea that someone who will argue a point on and off during an entire day, with some random dude on the net, then tell me all about the value of his time makes me want to gag. you also have spent enough time debating this to have built one.

 

[wallysb01]

Its actually both time & value, as a (A * B) function.

Of course, when it is claimed that anything (eg, upgrades) take zero time (A=0) and that time-value is irrelevant because the task is universally considered to be 'fun' (B=0), then the discussion has been disingenuously sabotagued from the start.

Hardly. B=0 is a perfectly reasonable value and maybe absolutely true. Think it from a marginal value stand point. I get off work and can't stand to do something I don't really enjoy just to make money anymore, so I can A) do something fruitless to pass time while my brain is off or B) do some hobby that I enjoy that may actually produce a tangible benefit. So in this case, my labor is effectively free because there is no opportunity cost I'm giving up. Either way, I'm doing something I enjoy and that's all that really matter to me at the time. Thus B=0.

This is just the kind of thing another person can not decide for someone else. The value of my time is entirely up to me. The more you think about, the more you will realize this directly stems from our right to liberty.

My apologies if you didn't know that inline responses (such as this one) is a longstanding recommended practice as per RFC-1855.

But if you request it, I can try to shift to the posting style as recommended by Emily Postnews

The general practice if fine. The inability to coherently tie it into the points being made and brushing things off because you think they are "old and tired" is the problem. Effectively, your attempting to create a red herring. It went from you claiming, and I paraphrase, "Fun=0 cost is not generalizable to all individuals depending on their interest." To then claiming "The industry has changed, people don't open these boxes anymore!"

To which the basic responses are "No duh!" and "who cares, we're talking about the people that actually DO!"

Then you just walk away, "Bah, old and tired, old and tired!"

You can't stay on topic to save your life.

As best as I've been able to determine, your complaints have been:

That I've been utterly disrespectful of niche applications by looking instead at generalized use cases

Yes, and its down right imbecilic to do so when the entire topic at hand has been about the niche cases.

That I've been insensitive when exposing the logical fallacies of self-fulfilling statements

Insensitive? No, incorrect.

That I've condescendingly told "...others what they believe their time is worth."

Yep.

[*] That I've invoked tangents that you claim are irrelevant (at least to your agenda)

Yep, see the first one above.

[*] That I've failed to be plain and coherent ...somehow!

Your previous post? Yes. None of it addressed a thing you pretended you were responding to...

Is this an accurate summary?

Not entirely.

 

[-hh]

Hardly. B=0 is a perfectly reasonable value and maybe absolutely true.

Only for the use case who says that DIYs are "fun". That's a niche.

This is just the kind of thing another person can not decide for someone else. The value of my time is entirely up to me...

Yes, but that's also a two way street: your personal preference for DIY=fun=free doesn't trump everyone else's preferences.

The general practice if fine. The inability to coherently tie it into the points being made and brushing things off because you think they are "old and tired" is the problem. Effectively, your attempting to create a red herring. It went from you claiming, and I paraphrase, "Fun=0 cost is not generalizable to all individuals depending on their interest." To then claiming "The industry has changed, people don't open these boxes anymore!"

First, it isn't a red herring to point out that something isn't profoundly new.

Second, these additional observations that I've pointed out simply amplify the general use case conclusion: DIY is an increasingly obscure speciality niche ... and with not all DIY'ers being in the fun=free camp simply makes the subset of DIY+(fun=free) an even smaller niche.

To which the basic responses are "No duh!" and "who cares, we're talking about the people that actually DO!"

...at the utter contempt of 80% of the consumer base who isn't part of the niche.

Then you just walk away, "Bah, old and tired, old and tired!"

Incorrect. That part was for the old lame claim that DIYs are Free as in Beer.

You can't stay on topic to save your life.

TOS Violation...

Yes, and its down right imbecilic...

TOS Violation...strike two


Bye.

 

[MacVidCards]

Ladies, ladies...YOU ARE ALL BEAUTIFUL !!!!

Certainly you know how boring a troll flame fest is.

So stop being in one, OK?

 

[goMac]

You misunderstand, I'm not trying to convince you, you're convinced..

"The first adherents to a creed prove nothing against it"


This tell's me that A: you didn't try very hard or B: you're not telling the role truth.

Again no what?

obviously not because this has been an ongoing conversation since my morning, call it 12 hrs. You very much over rate the value of your time. The idea that someone who will argue a point on and off during an entire day, with some random dude on the net, then tell me all about the value of his time makes me want to gag. you also have spent enough time debating this to have built one.

I'm not sure what's going on here. You're posting, I'm replying, you're replying, and now you're posting to ask why anyone is posting.

...Ok.

(I'm not jumping into the discussion above. Throwing TOS violations around is enough to scare me away. )

 

[MacVidCards]

I'm not sure what's going on here. You're posting, I'm replying, you're replying, and now you're posting to ask why anyone is posting.

...Ok.

(I'm not jumping into the discussion above. Throwing TOS violations around is enough to scare me away. )

A cease fire doesn't work as long as someone feels the need to send (yet another) parting shot. Trust me, nobody else cares.

Everyone go back to your corners and count to 10.

Look, a butterfly !!!!

 

[goMac]

A cease fire doesn't work as long as someone feels the need to send (yet another) parting shot. Trust me, nobody else cares.

Everyone go back to your corners and count to 10.

Look, a butterfly !!!!

I'm not sure what thread they're on. They're certainly on a different thread than the one I was replying to.

 

[-hh]

I'm in this boat right now...

I have a self built PC, it was 2.4Ghz C2D on an Intel Mobo with 4GB of RAM, with a GTS 250 with 1GB of RAM. Being dated as it was I dropped in a quad core Xeon (socket compatible) at 2.83Ghz and 8GB of RAM.

After kicking around in Ubuntu & Mint for a while, (running windows in a VM), I wanted that 'nix feel but with native popular program compatibility, so I bought a copy of Lion and I've been off to the races, happy with the UI/UX for the most part. Extremely happy with the performance and platform compatibility.

Probably a fine machine for kicking around at home. For a business enterprise, running a Hackintosh can be a calculated risk and has to be carefully weighed its costs vs benefits.

Now I'm in between do I want to buy a new MP if they ever get announced/released or do I want to a build a workstation class equivalent (with a dual Xeon board, ECC memory, etc), in which case I may as well buy a MP.

With a dual Xeon configuration, the MP has generally been pretty cost competitive; its more typically the single CPU that the MP is criticized for a relatively poor price : performance ratio.

Aside from the back and forth going in this thread, the one point of anxiety I have about my hack is OS upgradeability.

That's the unquantified risk going forward on lifecycle management and how long can a particular hardware solution remain viable both from its "today" performance as well as its level of future-proofing for future enhancements in OS and/or Applications.

Part of the Linux community is quite upset about how Microsoft's UEFI "Secure Boot" (to combat piracy) supposedly marginalizing them out of hardware...I've not kept tabs to know for sure if this is paranoia or truth, but it does illustrate that Apple could choose to invoke additional hardware checks on Macs to counter Hackintosh-ery if they so chose...they waged this war with iPod emulators, for example.

I think I may buy a "bare" MP, if a 2012 model ever gets announced and just pimp out the memory, video (if hopefully supported) and storage on my own.

Which is precisely what a lot of personal and Small/Medium Businesses do. It isn't uncommon even in larger Enterprise, although it depends on how their procurement system is set up ... some don't really like the idea of buying RAM/HDDs separately for a variety of reasons and thus pay the 'Apple Tax' and depending on how much it costs them to process a single PO#, it might actually be cheaper.

This thread has not alleviated any of my confusion

Mostly because of sidedbar distractions, unfortunately. In rereading from the top, I see a few fairly common comments:

1) a common point of view is that a Hackintosh may be sufficient for a home machine, but for Enterprise, its a calculated risk in several ways that would need to be weighed versus its benefits.

2) the 'worst case' while staying with Apple would probably be considered to be an i7 based iMac, probably with a Promise Thunderbolt RAID. The implications are: (a) minimal (if any) cost savings potential in initial purchase price; (b) healthy risk of a higher lifecycle costs; (c) severely reduced capability on the upper tier of horsepower (CPU+GPU) & RAM.

3) a general expectation that if there is an EOL announcement that there's probably going to be a bit of a run on the current Mac Pro model: it is a reasonably logical move for businesses in particular to "buy time" by deferring having to make a major platform change decision in the near term.


-hh

 

[wallysb01]

Only for the use case who says that DIYs are "fun". That's a niche.

And...your point....

Yes, but that's also a two way street: your personal preference for DIY=fun=free doesn't trump everyone else's preferences.

Again, who said it did?

First, it isn't a red herring to point out that something isn't profoundly new.

But it doesn't invalidate it either. So you're just making noise, thus your only purpose could be to distract.

Second, these additional observations that I've pointed out simply amplify the general use case conclusion: DIY is an increasingly obscure speciality niche ... and with not all DIY'ers being in the fun=free camp simply makes the subset of DIY+(fun=free) an even smaller niche.

Is it increasingly obscure? I'd like to see data to support your claims.

Also, no one said it had to DIY+fun, it can also be DIY+cost effective.

...at the utter contempt of 80% of the consumer base who isn't part of the niche.

I think you've strayed so far from our original topic that you don't even know what you're referring to here.

Incorrect. That part was for the old lame claim that DIYs are Free as in Beer.

Obviously only you still know what you're talking about....

"You can't stay on topic to save your life."
TOS Violation...

Really? Its not an insult. So I'm harassing you, am I?

"Yes, and its down right imbecilic..."
TOS Violation...strike two

Again, I'm not insulting you. Strong language, maybe. But its to get a point across that you apparently are having trouble with.

Bye.

Likewise.

 

[MacVidCards]

CHILDREN !!!

The mean old moderator is going to come take your toys away !!!!

Seriously....LET IT GO !!!!!

 

[goMac]

CHILDREN !!!

The mean old moderator is going to come take your toys away !!!!

Seriously....LET IT GO !!!!!

It's the rumored end of the Mac Pro world. These are desperate times. It's a bit like Mad Max in here.

 

[wallysb01]

CHILDREN !!!

The mean old moderator is going to come take your toys away !!!!

Seriously....LET IT GO !!!!!

But if its a tired moderator...nevermind. Honestly, I don't see how this needs any mod involvement. I've taken to speaking more bluntly than usual, but no more harassing then any number of things said everyday on these boards or by Mr. -hh in this one.

 

[wafl iron]

damnit, screw this ad:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/to...-bring-lto-archival-to-thunderbolt-2012-04-16

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]

The mean old moderator is going to come take your toys away !!!!

But if its a tired moderator...nevermind.

I'm old and I'm tired, that means I'm cranky

Seriously lets stay on topic and discuss this topic using the rules for appropriate debate.

Its understandable people have an emotional and financial investment in MacPros and/or Hackintoshes. Lets be mindful and respectful

 

[Photovore]

*phew* -- now, may i meekly ask a question?

I've seen mixed information online as to whether it is possible to replace a single-processor tray in my 2009 MP with a dual-processor tray.

It seems that the mobo p/n is the same for both, but the SMC might be different, though that might be fixable with a quick flashing.

Can anybody supply more information?

t'anks!

edit: if this is worth its own thread, okay; i didn't know if it was a big enough question + didn't want to clutter things up....

 

[Razorhog]

I've seen mixed information online as to whether it is possible to replace a single-processor tray in my 2009 MP with a dual-processor tray.

It seems that the mobo p/n is the same for both, but the SMC might be different, though that might be fixable with a quick flashing.

Can anybody supply more information?

t'anks!

edit: if this is worth its own thread, okay; i didn't know if it was a big enough question + didn't want to clutter things up....

Considering the post just above yours by a moderator mentions staying on topic, I would suggest a new topic is appropriate

 

[pprior]

I bought my first Mac about 8 years ago or so. I've now owned 2 mac book pros, an imac and two mac pros. I came from the world of custom building my own PCs to high end specs, used to have giant towers with lots of noisy fans running 15K scsi drives (and constantly fighting graphic card/sound card/bios issues, etc) and just was thrilled to have a high end machine that was plug and play (my two mac pros).

But my current MP is getting a bit old in the teeth (it's an early 2008) and lightroom and premiere/after effects are seemingly taking longer and longer as my flow goes to higher MP cameras and HD video.

A year or two ago i would have poo-poo'd the idea of a hackintosh - that's everything I -left- the PC world to avoid, having to worry about making things work. Now, however, I"m actually starting to read a thread or two on them and honestly, if there isn't a new mac pro by the next year, I may well build one.

I can't imagine I'm alone.

 

[-hh]

I've seen mixed information online as to whether it is possible to replace a single-processor tray in my 2009 MP with a dual-processor tray.

It seems that the mobo p/n is the same for both, but the SMC might be different, though that might be fixable with a quick flashing.

Can anybody supply more information?

t'anks!

edit: if this is worth its own thread, okay; i didn't know if it was a big enough question + didn't want to clutter things up....

I haven't looked to see if it is possible, although I would expect that it would be. However, the tricky part would be in locating the parts you need ... ie, the dual processor tray. The availability and cost of Apple specific repair parts isn't a particularly new issue with Apple products...its often been expensive if not also not-easy-to-source.

What's probably an easier ... and quite probably cost effective ... way to accomplish what you're looking for would be to find a used Mac Pro with dual CPUs, buy it, swap out your drives, RAM, etc ... and then recover much of your investment costs by selling off your old single CPU Mac Pro. Sure, you'll take a loss in a manner of speaking, but it probably would be comparable to however much that dual processor tray (and CPUs) will have had cost you.


-hh

 

[Mac Kiwi]

A year or two ago i would have poo-poo'd the idea of a hackintosh - that's everything I -left- the PC world to avoid, having to worry about making things work. Now, however, I"m actually starting to read a thread or two on them and honestly, if there isn't a new mac pro by the next year, I may well build one.

I can't imagine I'm alone.

Ya your'e not alone there.


I guess what I mean is. If the Mac Pros situation is still tenuous next year and ongoing, then I might have to bare some pain sooner then I thought and look at options...not that I want to mind you.

 

[xgman]

But if they kill the xeon based MP, doesn't that put an end to future platform updates for a server/workstation style Hackintosh? Unless someone figured out how to easily write systems drivers, and Apple didn't somehow block that ability, I don't see this as any sort of solution.

 

[deconstruct60]

But if they kill the xeon based MP, doesn't that put an end to future platform updates for a server/workstation style Hackintosh?

No. The hidden assumption here is that future models in the rest of the Mac line up won't also get or have access to those newer drivers. There is hardly anything that is unique to towers over a period of 4-5 years.

GPUs improve at the mobile level at a rate very similar to the rate the desktop GPUs improve. They may be a cycle behind waiting on a process shrink but the basic architectures are shared.

Additionally, mainstream Macs have access to what once was solely encoded in x4 PCI-e cards. The PCI-e cards that are factored for TB will have very high driver overlap. Hackintosh folks plugging in the PCI-e variant of a card probably will have something that works or can be tweaked.

Similarly, there are some things that aren't supported now. Inifiband cards for OS X. not. Higher end GP-GPUs cards. not. Even with a Mac Pro some solutions available in Windows and/or Linux are not available. That they'd still be missing without a Mac Pro is a non issue.

Unless someone figured out how to easily write systems drivers, and Apple didn't somehow block that ability, I don't see this as any sort of solution.

You don't see short term solution. There are long term solutions.

Now there may be issues with the drivers that have to do with specific narrow issues (e.g., NUMA quirks that only show up on hackintoshes) ... But again this is always an issue with Hackintoshes. Hardware variances surfacing bugs/quirks on non standard Apple hardware because was not used in driver testing. Whether Mac Pro exists or not, that is still a long term issue.

Over an extended period of time though things like "more cores" , "more memory" , etc. tend to leak down into the more mainstream x86 implementations.

Similarly, Apple injecting something to counteract more EFI availability in the market is an issue with or without a Mac Pro.

 

[Photovore]

I haven't looked to see if it is possible [to replace single proc tray with dual in 2k9 MBP, which was my question]

... easier ... find a used Mac Pro with dual CPUs, buy it, swap [stuff]...

[-hh also mentions difficulty of finding parts]

Yup, especially on finding parts. Looked on eBay, and found not a single one for sale. If not there, it gon' be vurry hard to find....

Well, frankly I suppose I was only curious; I'm afraid I really want a 16-core and am likely to spend a chunk of savings on one when they come out, even if I don't immediately "need" it. (I know I will soon!)


p.s. Razorhog, you're right of course; but, seem to've got it done with minimal disruption!...

 

[anaqvi138]

Discussion: Is the Mac Pro DEAD?

Hey guys, so ive been a Mac Pro user for quite some time now. I currently have the 2010 2.4 ghz 8 core Mac Pro. I love it!

I have been hearing tons of rumors that apple is getting out of desktops and would like the imac to take the place of the mac pro. Essentially moving to total mobile devices. Even I have been feeling like the Mac Pro is greatly outdated and is due for an update. I feel like apple will have to decide within the next 6 months to upgrade it or kill it.

Just this week, Ivy Bridge processors came out and everyone is readily waiting for the new line of macbooks and imacs. I just put my mac pro on craigslist and have started to get offers for it. I'm really sad to let it go but i believe that these new ivy bridge imacs would be just as good as my 8 core mac pro.

My question is...Is the Mac Pro Dead? Should I hold off on buying a new imac or wait upto 6 months for a mac pro. Thanks!!