If you had to choose: Thunderbolt Vs Upgradeable GPU + PCIe slots?

[dollystereo]

I feel like this poll is just a reworded version of the "How many would have preferred the old form factor with upgraded parts" poll, with similar results.

Yeap

 

[slughead]

I feel like this poll is just a reworded version of the "How many would have preferred the old form factor with upgraded parts" poll, with similar results.

This is really more dealing with Thunderbolt specifically.

 

[RoastingPig]

pcie easily, and with a stronger power supply so i can put dual gtx 780 in that mug and beast out in bootcamp

 

[slughead]

With the rapid adoption of TB by PC OEM's we should be in TB heaven anytime now!

I just bought an ASUS Z87 Pro with a firewire header on the board. Some techs refuse to die, maybe TB will share the same fate?

I remember when I was helping my mom clear out her garage and she was sorting through a box of cables, she point to an old cable and said "what's this?"

I told her "that's a network cable, people used to connect computers through those." I had a moment of nostalgia remembering being 12 years old and stapling telephone cable between all the rooms in our house, I even built a harpoon gun to shoot the telephone cable through a 20 foot long vent. Then I told her "it's worthless, toss it." I wonder how long it will be until obsolete thunderbolt garbage is filling up boxes in people's garages.

 

[ScottishCaptain]

Try 2x PCIE 3.0 or 4x PCIe 2.0.

Expansion chassis are good for low-bandwidth cards, but anything greater than that is going to be hit pretty hard.

See, that's the problem with Thunderbolt.

It is not up to the standards required to replace a set of functioning PCI-e slots. If you try, you land up compromising exactly like this, and I think that is why a lot of professionals are pissed off. We're not getting anything out of this at all- we're just being asked to compromise, compromise, compromise.

Name one thing the new Mac Pro does better then the old? There's nothing. Sure, you've gone from two CPUs down to one for the same equivalent power, but you've lost two memory slots, PCI-e slots, 3.5" disk drive bays, and two optical drives (which, contrary to popular belief, are still useful in the pro world). No matter how you spin it, the new Mac Pro is a compromise. You're agreeing to give up XYZ for a new highly proprietary small form factor and that's it.

Like I said, I don't care what the interface is. If Thunderbolt handled a variety of 16x, 8x, 4x, and 1x cards (based on the total bandwidth available) then I'd be all over it. At the moment, it caps out at 4x, and Thunderbolt 2.0 does nothing to alleviate this limitation. As you said it yourself, anything greater than that is going to be hit pretty hard. Why do I want to shoehorn myself into that situation? Why do I want to limit myself in exchange for a purely aesthetic design decision? I don't even care what my box looks like. I care about what it can do for me.

-SC

 

[MacVidCards]

but you've lost two memory slots,

-SC

Actually it's 4 RAM slots, but otherwise you are right on.

 

[goMac]

I'm sorry you're annoyed by everyone else not liking the same thing as you. Apple made a choice that most of its users don't like, and yes, they need to change course.

Even if Apple didn't have a choice to sacrifice user wants and needs for thunderbolt (which they didn't), this poll still demonstrates that it's not a welcome trade.

Sure, it's the same thing as every poll on the topic that comes before it. It's not changing, poll or not.

What I implied in that last post is that people always hate different things. You could have done this same poll 15 years ago, and people would have told you they wanted SCSI instead of Firewire, simply because they knew SCSI, they had a lot of SCSI devices, and Firewire was too expensive and not widely available.

So pretty much polls tell you nothing about the success of a technology.

 

[ActionableMango]

What I implied in that last post is that people always hate different things. You could have done this same poll 15 years ago, and people would have told you they wanted SCSI instead of Firewire, simply because they knew SCSI, they had a lot of SCSI devices, and Firewire was too expensive and not widely available.

I never saw SCSI and FW as a versus fight. With PCI you can add one, the other, or both. That's what I love about PCI. If you wanted SCSI and Firewire in the same computer, and I did, no problem.

If you want Thunderbolt in a MP, you're screwed. If you want PCIe in your iTube, you're screwed.

(Yes, I know there is a slow, expensive, partially-incompatible, underpowered Thunderbolt expansion chassis that can get you external PCIe, but I'm excluding abominations.)

 

[ScottishCaptain]

Sure, it's the same thing as every poll on the topic that comes before it. It's not changing, poll or not.

What I implied in that last post is that people always hate different things. You could have done this same poll 15 years ago, and people would have told you they wanted SCSI instead of Firewire, simply because they knew SCSI, they had a lot of SCSI devices, and Firewire was too expensive and not widely available.

So pretty much polls tell you nothing about the success of a technology.

No. Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

Please don't tell me you're one of those people who blame the consumers because most of the companies out there today are busy pushing out rubbish crap. We do not hate different things. We do not hate change. When the first iPod came out (which was a huge change), people went absolutely crazy over it. Apple was right, and the consumers loved it. There was no going back after the iPod.

I like change. I like different things, but only when they're better then their predecessors. I do not appreciate having a technology rammed down my throat because it benefits some big company somewhere and not necessarily me or my workflow (which has remained unchanged for many, many years). That is the kind of change I will come to resent and "hate" because I'm being forced into it.

In the 1990s, I ran a computer with ISA cards. Eventually I bought a VLB video card because it was better then the ISA alternative. Soon enough, PCI came out and I swapped out all my old ISA cards for the PCI versions because it was worth it. Then came AGP, and I bought an AGP video card because I could play 3D games at higher resolutions accelerated by hardware. Finally PCI-e came along and once more, I replaced all my old PCI and PCI-x cards with the PCI-e equivalents. Why? Because PCI-e was better. I have no regrets about my continual upgrade path, because each new invention was an improvement over the last.

So please, tell me how Thunderbolt is an improvement over PCI-e.

Because all I see is more expensive crap, more software compatibility issues (especially with hot plugging- god help you if your TB cable is loose or gets unplugged while your system is powered up and a 3rd party kernel extension has claimed the hardware), and a bandwidth ceiling per device not even half of what PCI-e is capable of.

What really makes me resent Apple even more is the fact that they've removed all choice from the equation. If someone had told me that I had to upgrade to EISA or MCA around the ISA <-> PCI era, I would have told them to bugger off. So I'm really puzzled as to why Apple is getting a free pass when they're doing the exact same thing.

-SC

 

[MacVidCards]

Please don't tell me you're one of those people who blame the consumers because most of the companies out there today are busy pushing out rubbish crap. We do not hate different things. We do not hate change. When the first iPod came out (which was a huge change), people went absolutely crazy over it. Apple was right, and the consumers loved it. There was no going back after the iPod.


-SC

It would seem on the face of it, that this tech going BACWARDS in terms of speed and bandwidth would be the RED FLAG that it isn't a move forward.

But there are some people here you will never convince.

Some are here at Apple's bidding, some actually work for Apple.

For those folks, even if you make perfect 100% logical sense, they can not admit it or even admit that any of your points are good.

Don't get mad at them, pity that they found themselves at a place where selling out their integrity was a needed choice. They would like to speak their mind, but can't.

 

[goMac]

No. Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

Please don't tell me you're one of those people who blame the consumers because most of the companies out there today are busy pushing out rubbish crap. We do not hate different things. We do not hate change. When the first iPod came out (which was a huge change), people went absolutely crazy over it. Apple was right, and the consumers loved it. There was no going back after the iPod.

I like change. I like different things, but only when they're better then their predecessors. I do not appreciate having a technology rammed down my throat because it benefits some big company somewhere and not necessarily me or my workflow (which has remained unchanged for many, many years). That is the kind of change I will come to resent and "hate" because I'm being forced into it.

And again, it goes back to what I said before. I've heard over and over again that Apple is making a huge mistake that everyone hates and it's the end of whatever product is in whichever market and no one will ever buy it again because Apple doesn't understand everyone's workflow.

Thunderbolt's success or failure will probably have nothing to do with users. It'll all come down to who's willing to make devices for it. If users can get replacement devices at reasonable prices for what they used to use PCI-E for, nobody is going to care about the lack of PCI-E slots. And like every new technology, there will probably be a shortage of devices initially. I think Firewire launched with a grand total of 1 drive.

So the entire point of this thread is basically "Do you like spending money on new devices? Do you like changing?" Of course the answer is going to be no. Who likes doing that? But that doesn't really mean anything in the end on if the new Mac Pro is going to be a success or not. My guess is that with the new Mac Pro we're going to see Thunderbolt replacements to most people's PCI-E cards real quick, just like SCSI made way for Firewire.

Some are here at Apple's bidding, some actually work for Apple.

How else do you think it is? If Apple says jump, third parties jump. Because Apple says "use Thunderbolt" companies that used to make PCIe Apple devices will make Thunderbolt ones.

Like it or not, Apple does dictate the direction of the market.

You're like the guy who said Apple was doomed back in 1998 because they dropped the floppy drive. Except you sell floppy disks out of your basement too.

It's a jolt, but the ecosystem will adapt. Just like every other transition. No one liked the PowerPC to Intel transition either, but everyone survived. Again liking something is not the same thing as whether or not something will be successful.

 

[tuxon86]

And again, it goes back to what I said before. I've heard over and over again that Apple is making a huge mistake that everyone hates and it's the end of whatever product is in whichever market and no one will ever buy it again because Apple doesn't understand everyone's workflow.

Thunderbolt's success or failure will probably have nothing to do with users. It'll all come down to who's willing to make devices for it. If users can get replacement devices at reasonable prices for what they used to use PCI-E for, nobody is going to care about the lack of PCI-E slots. And like every new technology, there will probably be a shortage of devices initially. I think Firewire launched with a grand total of 1 drive.

So the entire point of this thread is basically "Do you like spending money on new devices? Do you like changing?" Of course the answer is going to be no. Who likes doing that? But that doesn't really mean anything in the end on if the new Mac Pro is going to be a success or not. My guess is that with the new Mac Pro we're going to see Thunderbolt replacements to most people's PCI-E cards real quick, just like SCSI made way for Firewire.



How else do you think it is? If Apple says jump, third parties jump. Because Apple says "use Thunderbolt" companies that used to make PCIe Apple devices will make Thunderbolt ones.

Like it or not, Apple does dictate the direction of the market.

You're like the guy who said Apple was doomed back in 1998 because they dropped the floppy drive. Except you sell floppy disks out of your basement too.

It's a jolt, but the ecosystem will adapt. Just like every other transition. No one liked the PowerPC to Intel transition either, but everyone survived. Again liking something is not the same thing as whether or not something will be successful.

Apple doesn't dictate anything in the computer market. They don't even break the 10% user base. They are the blackberry and windows phone of the computer market. 3rd party support comes month after the windows version if it comes at all and is often subpar.

You just don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you should call the mothership for further instructions.

 

[MacVidCards]

So please, tell me how Thunderbolt is an improvement over PCI-e.


-SC

While many words have been typed explaining how things work with the "adults" in the computer world, as I predicted this particular CENTRAL point is ignored. Again.

Because there is no good answer.

And even waiting for the next communique from the Mothership won't produce an answer.

And I note that the "Apple is here posting opinions through intermediaries" thing wasn't denied, merely treated as "DUH, of Course".

 

[handheldgames]

Message received loud and clear:

Oh my.. Open mouth, insert foot! Apple doesn't dictate, these day's they establish the standard everybody follows: Hmmm where to start:

Most recently...
defined a the "touch based" phone platform everyone copied
defined the tablet platform microsoft stumbled over for years.
defined the all in one market, that even HP is still copying
first retina display in any mobile device, the industry followed
first retina display in any laptop, the industry followed
first to delivery an a platform based on SATA PCI 3.2 blade SSD's, too soon.
first to drop PCIe on their flagship desktop platform.

Taking us to the new Mac Pro. Dropping internal PCIE, Apple will probably gain marketshare. Let's face it, the PC form factor is a dying platform with the new MacPro being the cylindrical nail in the coffin. Those requiring crazy multi-gpu processing power have already moved on. Those who linger will just continue to fling their insults as usual.

That said, I enjoy a PCIe based platform and have taken advantage of the opportunity to upgrade my 2009 Mac pro and will continue to expand the platform well beyond it's years.

Apple doesn't dictate anything in the computer market. They don't even break the 10% user base. They are the blackberry and windows phone of the computer market. 3rd party support comes month after the windows version if it comes at all and is often subpar.

You just don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you should call the mothership for further instructions.

 

[clemahieu]

So please, tell me how Thunderbolt is an improvement over PCI-e

An end user with little computer knowledge can plug it in. They don't need to unscrew a box, look in to a maze of intimidating electronic components, or understand electrostatic discharge and how it can break things.

What does thunderbolt have over USB? A 10ns latency time. Thunderbolt isn't an "external peripheral" bus, it's extending the system bus from the chipset to outside the computer enclosure and if thunderbolt can bring optical cabling to market it'll be extending the system bus possible several meters away from where the CPU is located.

For every power user that's fully utilizing all their PCIe slots with raid cards and all their 3.5" bays with drives, there are probably 20 users with a huge, bulky, empty metal enclosure.

More than likely this move was a business compromise to keep the Mac Pro line going. As it was, it's low sales was probably making the Mac Pro on the verge of getting axed entirely.

Now we have a Mac Pro that's pretty close to what almost all Mac Pro users want and the alternative was no Mac Pro at all because another expensive big metal box wasn't going to happen.

 

[A Hebrew]

I'm no pro user but I would take the GPU upgradability and PCIe any day over Thunderbolt.

 

[VirtualRain]

For every power user that's fully utilizing all their PCIe slots with raid cards and all their 3.5" bays with drives, there are probably 20 users with a huge, bulky, empty metal enclosure.

Indeed, and based on a recent thread here, most of those who have fully utilized their PCIe slots, did so with a second GPU, PCIe SSDs and/or USB3 cards. Now if only Apple was paying attention and included all that in the New Mac Pro... Oh, wait a minute...

 

[VirtualRain]

I'm no pro user but I would take the GPU upgradability and PCIe any day over Thunderbolt.

Really? Do you guys follow the other threads on this forum? Theres literally a new thread every day of someone having problems with a PCIe card in their Mac Pro.

Here's a great example of the PCIe nirvana we live in today... A card we all have been waiting two years for that costs double that of what PC users pay, that flickers...

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1603588/

And if its not driver issues, its GPU power supply constraints, or no boot screens, or downclocked bus speeds or USB 3 cards causing mouse problems or needing supplemental power from the optical bay, or not working at full speed, or PCI SSD cards that are not bottlenecked, or RAID cards that can boot without costing an arm and a leg, or just finding a damn card that will work at all or one with real vendor support.

Has it really got to the point where people are fighting to maintain this existence?

 

[ScottishCaptain]

So the entire point of this thread is basically "Do you like spending money on new devices? Do you like changing?" Of course the answer is going to be no. Who likes doing that? But that doesn't really mean anything in the end on if the new Mac Pro is going to be a success or not. My guess is that with the new Mac Pro we're going to see Thunderbolt replacements to most people's PCI-E cards real quick, just like SCSI made way for Firewire.

Why do you keep insisting on this?

I like spending money on new devices. I like change, so long as that change is for the better. If I didn't, I'd still be using my 8086 with kilobytes of RAM and a disk drive with mere megabytes of storage space. Obviously you do too because you're communicating on this forum, so you've bought a new computer to replace your old one at one point in time. Why did you do that? Because the new one was better!

Nobody seems to want to answer this, it's ****ing unbelievable. Please tell me how the new Mac Pro is equivalent or better to the current Mac Pro. This is such an absurdly simple question it makes my head buzz when people just dance around the question.

Really? Do you guys follow the other threads on this forum? Theres literally a new thread every day of someone having problems with a PCIe card in their Mac Pro.

Here's a great example of the PCIe nirvana we live in today... A card we all have been waiting two years for that costs double that of what PC users pay, that flickers...

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1603588/

And if its not driver issues, its GPU power supply constraints, or no boot screens, or downclocked bus speeds or USB 3 cards causing mouse problems or needing supplemental power from the optical bay, or not working at full speed, or PCI SSD cards that are not bottlenecked, or RAID cards that can boot without costing an arm and a leg, or just finding a damn card that will work at all or one with real vendor support.

Has it really got to the point where people are fighting to maintain this existence?

And you think this is going to go away with Thunderbolt somehow?

News flash, Thunderbolt is a PCI-e 4x channel with DisplayPort muxxing. The PCI-e problems you have today will still exist in the "Thunderbolt" editions of your devices.

-SC

 

[clamnectar]

Please tell me how the new Mac Pro is equivalent or better to the current Mac Pro. This is such an absurdly simple question it makes my head buzz when people just dance around the question.

Sure, I'll pretend you're not being willfully ignorant:

-better CPU
-faster RAM
-drastically smaller size / lower weight
-more powerful graphics built in
-much faster basic storage
-USB 2 upgraded to USB 3
-Firewire upgraded to Thunderbolt
-probably quieter (but we don't know for sure)
-probably draws less power (but we don't know for sure)

Before anyone says it, I know you can upgrade an old mac pro to exceed some of these specs. But on paper, this is what makes the new one better than the old one in an out-of-the-box vs. out-of-the-box showdown. If you don't need to expand internally, this machine is superior in every way, except for the ceiling on RAM and internal storage, which are either small or big issues depending on who you are.

 

[d-m-a-x]

A lot of people think we've been in some kind of PCIe card heaven. I don't. PCIe support for the Mac Pro has been dismal. Where a card could be made to work, there were always compromises or work arounds. I've grappled with crappy choice and vendor support for Mac Pro PCIe cards long enough. I'm looking forward to the change. It certainly can't get any worse and I expect it to get better with the full line of Macs now supporting TB, and PC laptops slowly getting on board as well. The addressable market for TB peripherals is already orders of magnitude greater than that of Mac Pro PCIe cards which means it might actually attract some vendor attention.

yeah i've had a few run-ins here. Most recently found that Usb 3 pci cards (all of them) are only good for storage. Camera Tethering does not work.

Would be nice if mpre pci cards worked as intended on mac pro

 

[slughead]

Sure, I'll pretend you're not being willfully ignorant:

I'm not going to pretend that you aren't.

-better CPU

One CPU.

-faster RAM

Fewer slots though

-more powerful graphics built in

Not really, only if you pay for the W9000. I can put 2 Titans in my current Mac Pro for less money and get way more FPS. (W9000 = 7970)

-much faster basic storage

Look what I can do with my Mac Pro that the new one can't

-Firewire upgraded to Thunderbolt

No, firewire was replaced by USB 3. PCIE was DOWNGRADED to thunderbolt.

 

[pastrychef]

I enjoy beating dead horses...

If you like PCI-e slots with your Mac, you better pick up a Mac Pro soon because, no matter how many polls are started and how hard people complain, they are about to be a thing of the past.

PowerPC, NuBus, ADB, Floppies, optical drives, PCMCIA/PC card, etc. Time marches on. Technologies get dropped. Apple/Macs continues to survive.

 

[slughead]

Before anyone says it, I know you can upgrade an old mac pro to exceed some of these specs. But on paper, this is what makes the new one better than the old one in an out-of-the-box vs.

That's exactly the point: The new model is inferior because the end user has little ability to add high-bandwidth devices like new GPUs or 3000MBps Hard drives. Your argument is pretty weak when you have to stack the deck "Okay, let's compare this thing and that thing and ignore the fundamental difference between the two."

The processor is a minor speed bump in exchange for a huge step back in terms of upgradeability.

----------

PowerPC, NuBus, ADB, Floppies, optical drives, PCMCIA/PC card, etc. Time marches on. Technologies get dropped. Apple/Macs continues to survive.

You really think PCIe is going anywhere (except in the insulated Mac universe)? It's about 8 times faster than thunderbolt 2 and doesn't require additional external enclosures for each device. PCIe is clearly superior for desktops, I don't see anyone disputing that. Inferior technologies don't usually crowd out beter ones.

x86 > PPC
USB > ADB
Flash drives > Optical> Floppies
USB3 > Firewire
PCI > NuBus
PCIe > Thunderbolt

I admit that Thunderbolt has its place in Laptops, but desktops? Why? This seems like it may be another failed Apple experiment.

 

[pastrychef]

You really think PCIe is going anywhere (except in the insulated Mac universe)? It's about 8 times faster than thunderbolt 2 and doesn't require additional external enclosures for each device. PCIe is clearly superior for desktops, I don't see anyone disputing that. Inferior technologies don't usually crowd out beter ones.

x86 > PPC
USB > ADB
Flash drives > Optical> Floppies
USB3 > Firewire
PCI > NuBus
PCIe > Thunderbolt

I admit that Thunderbolt has its place in Laptops, but desktops? Why? This seems like it may be another failed Apple experiment.

Get a 2012 Mac Pro. They still have PCI-e slots.