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If you had to choose: Thunderbolt Vs Upgradeable GPU + PCIe slots?
- Thread starter slughead
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Not backwards, just incorrect. You keep saying that TB2 is twice as fast as TB1, when it is identical in speed, just changed from 10x2 to 20x1 Gb/sec, and therein lies your misunderstanding.You're looking at TB1 not TB2 tho right? The nMP is TB2, not TB1. So just double the numbers you listed there and that's about right. Unless I'm getting something backwards here.
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I'm here to learn, share and discuss, just as you are. One problem we're having is that you don't understand the design concept yourself, as much as you'd like to think you do.One for each person who can't or refuses to understand the design concept behind the nMP. So expect more to come.
"At the physical level, the bandwidth of Thunderbolt 1 and Thunderbolt 2 are identical, and Thunderbolt 1 cabling is thus compatible with Thunderbolt 2 interfaces. At the logical level, Thunderbolt 2 enables channel aggregation, whereby the two previously separate 10 Gbit/s channels can be combined into a single logical 20 Gbit/s channel."
Thunderbolt 2 is not twice as fast as Thunderbolt 1. Do the math. Thunderbolt has *always* shown two 10Gb channels, which has always been 20Gb total. All they did was put the two channels together for the same 20Gb bandwidth. It's not 40Gb. Maybe TB3, in 2014, 2015 or whenever.
So, 20Gb = 2.5GB, which is more than 1000MB/sec slower than what I'm using in my 2009 Mac Pro. What needs to happen is someone design and build a Thunderbolt device that can take multiple TB cables, and aggregate *those* together into a single PCIe slot external device. That way, nMP owners can take three TB2 cables (being sure to choose the three ports that will allow each TB cable to use an individual TB controller, since the six ports will be sharing three controllers) and run those into this yet-to-exist external PCIe adapter, and provide the equivalent of PCIe v2 x12 lanes of speed in a PCIe slot.
Hell, maybe that's what I'll work on 'inventing' myself, so that at least *this* issue can be put to rest. (The issue being how do people with x8 lane PCIe cards get x8 speeds from a TB2 device that only provides x4 lane speed.)
It doesn't change the fact that the nMP is crap even if it's already a done deal like you say. We bloody well know that Apple won't back down, but that is a totally different subject. Compared with the open design of the MP the nMP is a closed up limited and $$$ piece of crap. A beautiful, nicely shaped and shiny piece of crap, but a piece of crap none the less.
We're talking about the hardware not the marketing.
Hardware wise what do you get with the nMP:
- You get to have the pleasure to buy expensive TB enclosure for your HDD and SSD that you presently own.
- You get, as a bonus, the joy to buy expensive cable to link said enclosure.
- You lose one CPU if you had a dual cpu MP.
- You lose the possibility to chose/upgrade your GPU in the future without paying the Apple tax, if at all possible.
- Because of this, you also lose CUDA for your CUDA enabled applications.
- You lose 4 ram slots, making ram upgrades more expensive.
Compared to the old format:
- Bigger footprint and heavier...
Because in the end, the only thing missing from the old MP was USB3 and TB. Both of which could have been added for a couple of $$$ by upgrading the mobo and drilling a few more hole in the casing....
I totally understand that Apple today is more about form over function. I Get that. But it doesn't make the nMP any less crappy...
Actually, either USB 3.0 or SSD probably is possible via the miniPCIe port. There is some discussion going on about that right now.
In any case, it's about upgrading, not the initial spec. No doubt the nMP will blow away the MP, it's just that people are disappointed about the future.
For example, I was able to add USB 3.0 to a three year old computer via a $20 card. And USB 3.1 10Gbps is just around the corner. I probably will be able to upgrade the MP once again with an inexpensive PCIe card.
For USB 3.1 on the nMP, I wonder how that will go. I speculate you'd have to buy the card, and an expensive PCIe Thunderbolt enclosure, and an expensive Thunderbolt cable, and a new power strip because the existing one is full from all the other enclosures' power plugs. Or buy one of those expensive Thunderbolt expansion boxes and hope they don't disconnect all the devices on sleep, like the current ones do. Or buy a whole new nMP.
Having been down the dual GPU route, I know from experience that it is a bag of hurt. Maybe Mavericks will make this better some how, but that's a big maybe and I don't see how that's going to fix Windows for bootcampers. I prefer a fast single GPU and the ability to upgrade. There is a plethora of GPU choices right now. I've had a 5770, and now a GTX 680 4GB, and some day something even faster.
So yes, the Little iTube setup is superior to the Giant Cheese Grater setup in certain specific circumstances that it is aiming for, but wider needs, preferences, and the plethora of upgrades are lost.
ugh.. do you know how many times i've heard all of this before? i'm sure you do because if you interweb, you've heard it.. i heard it all even before i started computing 12 years ago..
macs are toys, you can't use them for 'real' work, they're overpriced shiny decorations, etc... i mean really, i've heard it all before on a thousand different occasions.. i'm not affected by it because i know what my computing needs are and i know that they are handled quite well on apple hardware (and software even).. i couldn't care less if someone thinks i'm using a toy.. hell, i've been skating since i was 7 years old.. 30 years i've been riding what most will consider a toy.. it is a toy. so what, you know? it's fun..
so i use and like using an overpriced shiny toy computer?.. big deal.
Personally, I think that's fine. Apple loves you for it, you love Apple for it, and the economy loves it... win-win-win!
Just to make sure you understand what I'm saying:
We're talking about the hardware not the marketing.
Hardware wise what do you get with the nMP:
- You get to have the pleasure to buy expensive TB enclosure for your HDD and SSD that you presently own.
- You get, as a bonus, the joy to buy expensive cable to link said enclosure.
- You lose one CPU if you had a dual cpu MP.
- You lose the possibility to chose/upgrade your GPU in the future without paying the Apple tax, if at all possible.
- Because of this, you also lose CUDA for your CUDA enabled applications.
- You lose 4 ram slots, making ram upgrades more expensive.
Compared to the old format:
- Bigger footprint and heavier...
Because in the end, the only thing missing from the old MP was USB3 and TB. Both of which could have been added for a couple of $$$ by upgrading the mobo and drilling a few more hole in the casing....
I totally understand that Apple today is more about form over function. I Get that. But it doesn't make the nMP any less crappy...
I didn't use the word toy, you did. You see, you are like the guy playing violin on the titanic. Captain Tim said all was ok, no need to panic, so you keep on playing. Me and the other "whiner and complainer" are in fact running for the life boat or improvising some (hackintosh) because that ship is going down fast... AND I DON'T MEAN APPLE WILL CRASH! I'm talking about the MP line only. I know in my business it won't be a usable solution anymore. Good thing, the software they run are available either on Windows or Linux/BSD.
I dunno, I just finished watching about 5 1hr videos of Steve Jobs talking and your post here seems to exemplify the self-appointed and user-promoted industry "experts" Jobs and Apple have repeatedly rejected as "not knowing WTH they're talking about". Steve's words not mine.
Steve laid a plan in 97' and stuck to it through to the end; that's Apple is about solutions and not the "better, faster, cheaper" rhetoric those self-appointed farces preach continually and continuously - again Steve's words, not mine.
So the fact that this nMP addresses solutions in a very real way (as I understand it's design concept) and not "better faster cheaper" as you and others profess, says to me that Apple again is on the right track. I don't wonder too much about who's right, you or Steve, as it seems pretty obvious by track records alone - even if I weren't able to understand how the nMP offers solutions.
Watch two for yourself that I think express this very clearly:
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I dunno, I just finished watching about 5 1hr videos of Steve Jobs talking and your post here seems to exemplify the self-appointed and user-promoted industry "experts" Jobs and Apple have repeatedly rejected as "not knowing WTH they're talking about". Steve's words not mine.
Steve laid a plan in 97' and stuck to it through to the end; that's Apple is about solutions and not "better, faster, cheaper" and those self-appointed farces preach continually and continuously - again Steve's words, not mine.
So the fact that this nMP addresses solutions in a very real way (as I understand it's design concept) and not "better faster cheaper" as you and others profess, says to me that Apple again is on the right track. I don't wonder too much about who's right, you or Steve, as it seems pretty obvious by track records alone - even if I weren't able to understand how the nMP offers solutions.
Steve's dead... I'm alive... End of story. And if the only mesure of someone worth that you go by is its marketing flair and how much money he's got, then I really pity you.
Not "better, faster, cheaper" is nice when talking about consumer products. Not so much when talking about WORKSTATIONS.
right.. i just lumped you in with that group.. just because you don't see yourself inside that group doesn't mean you're not smack dab in the middle of it..
no, you're not.. you're whining and complaining.. you guys aren't sitting around discussing solutions to your problems.. most of you aren't even recognizing that there may not be much of ,if any, a problem at all.. you're too busy running multiple polls about how bad thunderbolt sucks.. is that helpful? at all? to anybody? ..theres no improv or solution seeking going on there.. it's nothing but a bitch&bash fest..
i really don't know what to say..
the old mac pro was usable in your business and the new one isn't? that makes no sense.. what the heck are you using them for? obviously not computing
The new one aren't usable because it can't use the interface that the present one uses. How hard is it for you to frakking understand that!
Here's the list again:
Hardware wise what do you get with the nMP:
- You get to have the pleasure to buy expensive TB enclosure for your HDD and SSD that you presently own.
- You get, as a bonus, the joy to buy expensive cable to link said enclosure.
- You lose one CPU if you had a dual cpu MP.
- You lose the possibility to chose/upgrade your GPU in the future without paying the Apple tax, if at all possible.
- Because of this, you also lose CUDA for your CUDA enabled applications.
- You lose 4 ram slots, making ram upgrades more expensive.
Compared to the old format:
- Bigger footprint and heavier...
Take your time and read this again. All of those are essential in the use we have for the MP in our company. You are the one believing that less is more, which doesn't make any sense in a workstation. It does in a laptop or an appliance, but not in a production workhorse.
it's not end of story.. the dude in the first video tess posted is alive and well.. listen the the first 5 minutes.. (he's talking about you btw.. and he's not trying to market or sell anything)
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can you quit posting this list please? you've done it three or four times now and i can't get past the opening "you get to have the pleasure..."
what kind of legit list starts off with that? you're projecting your views straight from the get go.. i already know what the rest of the list will consist of just based off the opener..
same exact thing as this 'poll' thread we're talking in..
i get it- it makes so much sense to you and people that think like you.. but it's meaningless to anybody else.
Steve's still dead... End of story.
And unless he knows me and call me by name, then he isn't talking about me.
And you can catch the latest MacBreak Weekly on twit.tv
They are long time Mac fan and even then aren't impressed by the nMP. So either you follow the marketing blurb from a guy 20 years ago, or what people who work with the thing are saying today. Your choice.
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I have the right to write my post and list as I please. I'm not here to serve you. Start your own forum if you want to control how people expres themselves.
If you don't care about the subject of this thread then what are you doing here? No one is forcing you to participate. BTW if I offend you so much you can just use the ignore function and voila! problem solved.
apparently i have no choice.. i'm stuck between the middle of your nonsense and the marketing nonsense.. but what i've found to suit my needs in an enjoyable manner doesn't matter..
:/
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huh? you posted the list 3 or 4 times in direct response to me.. the last time you copy/pasted it, you even accompanied it with a note telling me directly to read it again..
go express yourself to someone that cares?.. i don't know.
I don't think the nMP is crap, nor do I think the Mac Pro line will die because of this new design.
I believe they made this new design looking ahead to future workflows, and that the problem is that some workflows (like my own) don't translate directly across right away, due to the slower bandwidth of Thunderbolt 2.
Once (or if) the appropriate devices are available to make certain things like an x8 lane PCIe card work with a nMP without bottlenecking on the x4 lane speed of TB2, it will reduce the problem of physical and financial issues to financial issues only. Also, TB3 or TB4 may relieve the speed loss issue, if they provide more bandwidth improvements down the road.
Given all that, and that something doesn't come along to beat Thunderbolt before it takes off, I think Thunderbolt could thrive. Either way, the nMP will sell, but I think that if the bandwidth issues were solved prior to release, there would be far less people complaining about the design. Big studios like Pixar and Dreamworks have all the money in the world to throw at the problem, so they can afford to build custom devices that can combine all six TB2 ports into a single data stream. The average person has to rely on what's available at low-orbit prices to make things work, and that's why Pixar can say, "Hey, we love this thing," while others say, "What the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu...!"
There are also plenty of little guys that can use the new design just fine as well, and not incur any additional cost. If the base model is $1500, then they win for sure.
If it's as low as $1000, it's still not going to save ME any money right now, because I still have to buy an external enclosure for my RAID card just to make it work, and then add all my currently internal drives in yet another box I'd have to buy. The base model nMP isn't going to outperform a current 6-core with 32GB of RAM and 16 attached drives getting massive bandwidth... it's going to be a quad or 6-core that needs a lot of expensive new stuff to even keep up with what I have now.
There's no way I could recover enough money by selling old gear to make it a wash, and the performance gain isn't there to justify it, so in my case, I'm far better off waiting until the 7,1 comes out.
This shouldn't be a personal fight here. No need to mock anyone for designing skateboard ramps, or call people names because they don't see things their way. Everyone knows the new Mac is going to come out no matter what is said here. Perhaps there are some reading this that will create solutions to address the complaints. I doubt Apple will bother, but maybe Black Magic or Sonnet will make that 6-port Thunderbolt 2 PCIe card device that solves *my* problem, and sell it for $500.
I believe they made this new design looking ahead to future workflows, and that the problem is that some workflows (like my own) don't translate directly across right away, due to the slower bandwidth of Thunderbolt 2.
Once (or if) the appropriate devices are available to make certain things like an x8 lane PCIe card work with a nMP without bottlenecking on the x4 lane speed of TB2, it will reduce the problem of physical and financial issues to financial issues only. Also, TB3 or TB4 may relieve the speed loss issue, if they provide more bandwidth improvements down the road.
Given all that, and that something doesn't come along to beat Thunderbolt before it takes off, I think Thunderbolt could thrive. Either way, the nMP will sell, but I think that if the bandwidth issues were solved prior to release, there would be far less people complaining about the design. Big studios like Pixar and Dreamworks have all the money in the world to throw at the problem, so they can afford to build custom devices that can combine all six TB2 ports into a single data stream. The average person has to rely on what's available at low-orbit prices to make things work, and that's why Pixar can say, "Hey, we love this thing," while others say, "What the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu...!"
There are also plenty of little guys that can use the new design just fine as well, and not incur any additional cost. If the base model is $1500, then they win for sure.
If it's as low as $1000, it's still not going to save ME any money right now, because I still have to buy an external enclosure for my RAID card just to make it work, and then add all my currently internal drives in yet another box I'd have to buy. The base model nMP isn't going to outperform a current 6-core with 32GB of RAM and 16 attached drives getting massive bandwidth... it's going to be a quad or 6-core that needs a lot of expensive new stuff to even keep up with what I have now.
There's no way I could recover enough money by selling old gear to make it a wash, and the performance gain isn't there to justify it, so in my case, I'm far better off waiting until the 7,1 comes out.
This shouldn't be a personal fight here. No need to mock anyone for designing skateboard ramps, or call people names because they don't see things their way. Everyone knows the new Mac is going to come out no matter what is said here. Perhaps there are some reading this that will create solutions to address the complaints. I doubt Apple will bother, but maybe Black Magic or Sonnet will make that 6-port Thunderbolt 2 PCIe card device that solves *my* problem, and sell it for $500.
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Just saw a great quote from the thread about the lackluster Geekbench scores leaked by nMP.
"The MMP will sell well to the posers who want to think that they are too important to use an Imac."
Aiden Shaw from 8/10/13.
Concise, to the point. I like it.
"The MMP will sell well to the posers who want to think that they are too important to use an Imac."
Aiden Shaw from 8/10/13.
Concise, to the point. I like it.
8-10-13?
big deal.. i've been called a poser simply for using macs for much longer than that.. [edit- but i don't know.. being called a poser based off a geekbench score? possibly a new low so congrats on that one]
doesn't anybody have any original insults they can come up with? you're all top apple pros, right? you're creative, right?
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good post @wonderspark
Or, you know... keep fighting amongst yourselves.
Maybe someone will filter through this BS and see some useful discussion that leads to solutions.
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Maybe someone will filter through this BS and see some useful discussion that leads to solutions.
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Thanks.
It may be concise, but it expresses an opinion, not facts. If you look closer at the context you will find that it was put up against a dual 12 core, 512MB RAM hypothetical example with four video cards. Well, so if you don't have that configuration you may as well get an iMac, got it..
But replace the word iMac in that sentence with IBM and you have Apple in total. All Apple computer products have always been style over Big Brother - under Jobs. The first Macintosh: A weird arse cube thingy that was proprietary in every way. The first iMac when he returned: An Ives candy design which sold for more yet did less and again was extremely proprietary. The Ives designed plastic PowerMacs that followed all were as well. Then the iLamp another Ives design was the same deal: High design, high price, low respective spec. That's true of the current iMacs and McPros of today too.
With the current MacPros some of that propriety got away from them via people like yourself technically breaking copywrite law and so on. So in an ironic way I think you personally are in large part to blame for the new design. The nMP is only a slight correction to set them back on course. It's interesting and even more ironic how the person to blame for this (at least in major part) is making the most noise against it.
If you think about it you're basically saying: You hate Apple and all it's ever stood for and you want them to become IBM - or whoever is leading the square-box intel based PCs these days. That's fine. I also can identify the farcical nature of marketing design over substance. But that has ALWAYS been the Apple decree and creed - under Jobs. Why are you hating on it now? The only conclusion I can come to is that it cuts you out of a lot of potential business.
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Yes, TB2 is 20Gbps.
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Wow, 3 votes for a lack of basic understanding of bit Vs byte.
Let me fix that for you: 16xPCIE 3.0 is 15.75GBytes/second AKA 128Gbits per second. Thunderbolt 2 is 20Gbits per second (2.5Gbytes/second), but early reports say it will only run at 1.5-2.1.
So yes, 8 times faster, merely 6.4x if you want to talk about theoretical maximums, but in reality it's more like 8.
Edit: Wait, so thunderbolt proponents don't even come close to understanding just how slow it is even though the specs have already been published? Why am I not surprised?
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