If you had to choose: Thunderbolt Vs Upgradeable GPU + PCIe slots?

[deconstruct60]

You really think PCIe is going anywhere (except in the insulated Mac universe)?

PCIe and standard PCIe slots are to substantively different things. Yes basic PCIe is going to be around. No, slots are on a different path.

The percentage of the personal computer market that is composed of "boxes with legacy slots" is shrinking. No in the insulated Mac Universe in the real universe on Earth. PCIe is regualarly used in phone/tablet designs too. That has nothing to do with legacy socket usage though.

The standard sockets are even changing where they are sticking around.
Sata Express:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6294/breaking-the-sata-barrier-sata-express-and-sff8639-connectors ( and NGFF/M.2 form factor also linked in that article. )

Thunderbolt is just another form factor change. It doesn't remove PCIe at all. Conflating PCIe for a specific socket design is just misdirection. ( which is why they polls are particularly designed to get at the truth as much as fodder for FUD campaigns. )

 

[Tesselator]

Well, storage I/O speed and bandwidth is the biggest bottleneck in any system so this poll is a little more difficult than it first appears. A couple of questions need to be asked and answered before I can vote intelligently:

• Do you need/want two video cards with tight integration?
• If so how much will those cost if purchased separately and not as part of the nMP?
• How much are dedicated I/O cards capable of TB2 speeds?
• How much are the enclosures for those?
• Are you considering that those I/O cards will deliver the same speeds through a TB2-->PCIe adapter?
• How much are TB2 RAID enclosures?
• Isn't that new high-speed PCI Drive part of the video card - so does that go too when you vote 4 PCIe slots?
• How much is a replacement for that?
• Would you like to be able to add more than 4 total PCIe devices - like up to 30 or so total?
• How much will TB2 --> PCIe adapters be by the time you go to actually purchase them?
• How much are the base prices of those two systems (w/TB2 and wo/TB2)?

When I consider those things I discover that the TB2 system can become about 10 times faster than the PCI 4-slot system - and not cost all that much to get there either. Also I keep drooling over the idea of using two video cards but I dunno if I would ever try it if the system didn't come preconfigured that way - so far I haven't.

Anyway, all things considered I voted for the TB2 system. But I suppose asking intelligent questions which actually matter makes me a kool-aid drinking fanboy?

I'd like to know which TB2->PCIe adapter can run 3700+MB/second through it, because that's what my Areca RAID card can do.

All of them. They do close to 4GB/s right? Your card is only doing 3.7GB/s.

More like none of them. They only do 1-1.5GB/s. I've seen one custom setup do 2.1GB/s, and that was in a Hollywood studio.

How does 20Gb/s theoretical translate to 4GB/s real world? 20Gbps is 2.5GB/s theoretically, and I've not seen a single Thunderbolt - PCIe adapter for sale that runs more than one cable simultaneously to a single PCIe slot... have you? Where? I'd like to see it.

You're looking at TB1 not TB2 tho right? The nMP is TB2, not TB1. So just double the numbers you listed there and that's about right. Unless I'm getting something backwards here.

----------

Oh yay! A poll! I'm sure as Apple sees this they're going to realize how wrong they were, apologize, and redesign the entire thing.

I agree. How many of these polls do we need???

One for each person who can't or refuses to understand the design concept behind the nMP. So expect more to come.

 

[tuxon86]

Message received loud and clear:

Oh my.. Open mouth, insert foot! Apple doesn't dictate, these day's they establish the standard everybody follows: Hmmm where to start:

Most recently...
defined a the "touch based" phone platform everyone copied
defined the tablet platform microsoft stumbled over for years.
defined the all in one market, that even HP is still copying
first retina display in any mobile device, the industry followed
first retina display in any laptop, the industry followed
first to delivery an a platform based on SATA PCI 3.2 blade SSD's, too soon.
first to drop PCIe on their flagship desktop platform.

Taking us to the new Mac Pro. Dropping internal PCIE, Apple will probably gain marketshare. Let's face it, the PC form factor is a dying platform with the new MacPro being the cylindrical nail in the coffin. Those requiring crazy multi-gpu processing power have already moved on. Those who linger will just continue to fling their insults as usual.

That said, I enjoy a PCIe based platform and have taken advantage of the opportunity to upgrade my 2009 Mac pro and will continue to expand the platform well beyond it's years.

That is innovating not dictating...

I don't see anybody jumping in droves mass copying Apple in the desktop world. HP and Dell having one model similar to the iMac, lost in a sea of their conventionnal desktop isn't being dictated.

But let's look at your list anyway...

defined a the "touch based" phone platform everyone copied ~ Has nothing to do with desktop computer or workstation
defined the tablet platform microsoft stumbled over for years.~ Has nothing to do with desktop computer or workstation
defined the all in one market, that even HP is still copying ~ They only have one low selling model just like dell. The rest of their line up are tower or desktop based PC.
first retina display in any mobile device, the industry followed ~ Has nothing to do with desktop computer or workstation
first retina display in any laptop, the industry followed ~ Who followed? There isn'T any demand for it in the real world. And playing the LG/Samsung screen roulette isn't what I call a success story.
first to delivery an a platform based on SATA PCI 3.2 blade SSD's, too soon. ~ They haven't produced anything yet. The nMP isn't out yet. You may be surprised to see it come first on an Asus or Gigabyte mobo before seing it on the nMP.
first to drop PCIe on their flagship desktop platform. ~ Droping what is the standard and easiest way to upgrade your machine yourself is neither an innovation nor a dicta.

Better call the home office for another silly list then.

 

[Tesselator]

I'm sorry you're annoyed by everyone else not liking the same thing as you. Apple made a choice that most of its users don't like, and yes, they need to change course.

How do you figure? You really think the 60 users who responded here represent a true sampling of MP users? I guess 99% of MP users don't read nor post here. I would further guess that the 1% who do participate in on-line forums to do with the MP are so far outside the normal it's just ridiculous. Most here are attention-seekers who wish to boost their sense of self worth by showing that they know something. A small minority are here to share a community spirit and a little information along the way, and fewer yet are here to learn something (because they're too lazy to look up the information on their own). I realize this paints a rather sad picture but it is what it is and as far as I can see that's what it is.

So Apple is going to listen to 30 out of 60 misfits and change a million dollar design? Really? I highly doubt it. I'd be willing to bet they will never ever see this poll nor read any of these comments - unless they're looking for a good laugh or something.

 

[tuxon86]

Sure, I'll pretend you're not being willfully ignorant:

-better CPU
-faster RAM
-drastically smaller size / lower weight
-more powerful graphics built in
-much faster basic storage
-USB 2 upgraded to USB 3
-Firewire upgraded to Thunderbolt
-probably quieter (but we don't know for sure)
-probably draws less power (but we don't know for sure)

Before anyone says it, I know you can upgrade an old mac pro to exceed some of these specs. But on paper, this is what makes the new one better than the old one in an out-of-the-box vs. out-of-the-box showdown. If you don't need to expand internally, this machine is superior in every way, except for the ceiling on RAM and internal storage, which are either small or big issues depending on who you are.

- Less of it. One vs two.
- Less of it. Four slot vs height.
- Irrelevent in a pro setting.
- Proprietary format limited to AMD only. Sicks if your apps are CUDA based.
- Can already have that. And wait to see how much Apple will squeeze you for it.
- Can already have that via the lovely PCIe slot that the cMP has.
- This doesn't bring anything to the table especially if what you are using FW for doesn't support TB. You just add the expense of a dongle to the mix.
- There is still a fan in the nMP.
- You only save on the HDD vs SDD side of thing. The CPU, RAM and Video card will draw the same as any other same component based system.

 

[Tesselator]

Look what I can do with my Mac Pro that the new one can't
Image

No, firewire was replaced by USB 3. PCIE was DOWNGRADED to thunderbolt.

Not really true unless you compare an unused potential. Almost no PCIe cards ever use the full potential of the buss spec and the ones which can only do so for a few seconds during a typical 8-hour workday. As far as that silly card image that keeps being posted; what are they $20,000 or something - and actually vapor-ware right? So just in case I got my specs wrong and TB2 is 20Gb/s and not 40Gb/s then all ya gotta do if you want that speed is buy two cards at half that speed and RAID0 them and poof! you get that speed! Can do, not can't.

The "upgraded" spec of TB2 over PCIe lay in the number of cards you can add. With the old system you were stuck with just 4 slots and spaced in such a way that mostly people couldn't even use all of them - so it's like 2 or 3 slots total. With TB2 as implemented in the nMP, the number of PCIe devices you can physically connect is 36. That's an upgrade! And most of 36 will still operate at full speed (minus about 3%) - just the same as if they were connected via an internal slot.

 

[clamnectar]

That's exactly the point: The new model is inferior because the end user has little ability to add high-bandwidth devices like new GPUs or 3000MBps Hard drives. Your argument is pretty weak when you have to stack the deck "Okay, let's compare this thing and that thing and ignore the fundamental difference between the two."

I'm not making an argument. The question was "what's better about it?" and I listed all the things that are objectively better specs. The longer view on its superiority or inferiority is subjective and depends mainly on the user's needs, so no definitive statement can be made in that respect.

It's obvious enough, and it's been said enough here and elsewhere: if you're all about PCIe additions, this machine is a failure. If you don't care about that, it's pretty much a straight up win, other than the need for more expensive external storage. There's not much more to it than that.

 

[Nightarchaon]

Thunderbolt is a dead duck of a standard, USB is equal to the task in every way (Superior in many ways), and if you have a PCI slot to install a USB card, up-gradable as well.

Give me a USB 3.1 port, cables, hubs and devices that all cost a few $$, and HDMI for video output, don't try and smoosh the two ports together and than charge me the earth for the cables/Devices

 

[clemahieu]

The new model is inferior because the end user has little ability to add high-bandwidth devices like new GPUs or 3000MBps Hard drives.

I think the new model is better because I don't care about hacking together components, I buy Apple products because it's a whole package and I don't need to mess with incompatibilities and driver problems.

You really think PCIe is going anywhere (except in the insulated Mac universe)? It's about 8 times faster than thunderbolt 2 and doesn't require additional external enclosures for each device.

Based on what math? PCIex16 3.0 = 15GB/s and PCIex16 4.0 = 30GB/s and Thunderbolt 2 = 20GB/s

It doesn't require an extra enclosure, it requires the device to have an existing one with a specific form factor. Is this a big requirement? Apparently it is because the new form will be a small footprint on my desktop instead of a huge box that I need to attach underneath. I use a standing desk so if I had to put the enclosure on the ground I now need to make sure all the cables have 6 foot runs.

It sounds like you want a hobby project of hacking together a computer instead of a finished professional tool that performs work tasks.

I suggest assembling your own hackintosh machine with PC parts; you'll probably be happier.

----------

Thunderbolt is a dead duck of a standard, USB is equal to the task in every way

Except it has a lower bandwidth and much higher latency and doesn't have 30m cables with no electrical crosstalk.

 

[theSeb]

I think the new model is better because I don't care about hacking together components, I buy Apple products because it's a whole package and I don't need to mess with incompatibilities and driver problems.



Based on what math? PCIex16 3.0 = 15GB/s and PCIex16 4.0 = 30GB/s and Thunderbolt 2 = 20GB/s

It doesn't require an extra enclosure, it requires the device to have an existing one with a specific form factor. Is this a big requirement? Apparently it is because the new form will be a small footprint on my desktop instead of a huge box that I need to attach underneath. I use a standing desk so if I had to put the enclosure on the ground I now need to make sure all the cables have 6 foot runs.

It sounds like you want a hobby project of hacking together a computer instead of a finished professional tool that performs work tasks.

I suggest assembling your own hackintosh machine with PC parts; you'll probably be happier.

----------



Except it has a lower bandwidth and much higher latency and doesn't have 30m cables with no electrical crosstalk.

no. Thunderbolt is 20 giga bits a second. Not bytes. That is a crucial difference

 

[clemahieu]

no. Thunderbolt is 20 giga bits a second. Not bytes. That is a crucial difference

Good catch.

 

[flat five]

Nobody seems to want to answer this, it's ****ing unbelievable. Please tell me how the new Mac Pro is equivalent or better to the current Mac Pro. This is such an absurdly simple question it makes my head buzz when people just dance around the question.

the question gets answered over and over and over again.. the problem isn't that people aren't answering the question, it's that you don't listen to anyone if they don't say what you want to hear..

for example:

Q- Please tell me how the new Mac Pro is equivalent or better to the current Mac Pro.
A- it's smaller

i can (and have) give you ten other answers but you don't want to hear it.. instead, you'll tell me all the reasons why i am stupid for thinking a smaller peripheral_less hub is better..

so after you're finished calling me stupid, you'll beg even harder with even more bolded words "PLEASE oh PLeasEESeeee.. someone ANSser my CResTIon.. YOU CAN;T because UR STUPIDDD"

you see the problem there? if you ask a question, be prepared to listen afterwards..

 

[tuxon86]

the question gets answered over and over and over again.. the problem isn't that people aren't answering the question, it's that you don't listen to anyone if they don't say what you want to hear..

for example:

Q- Please tell me how the new Mac Pro is equivalent or better to the current Mac Pro.
A- it's smaller

i can (and have) give you ten other answers but you don't want to hear it.. instead, you'll tell me all the reasons why i am stupid for thinking a smaller peripheral_less hub is better..

so after you're finished calling me stupid, you'll beg even harder with even more bolded words "PLEASE oh PLeasEESeeee.. someone ANSser my CResTIon.. YOU CAN;T because UR STUPIDDD"

you see the problem there? if you ask a question, be prepared to listen afterwards..

being smaller doesn't in any way make a workstation equivalent or better. To be one of those two qualifier or both, the nMP would have to offer the same functionnality and expension capability than the cMP, which it doesn't.

You've been told that many, many times but still you persist with only the cosmetic attribute of the nMP and not it's functionnality.

 

[ABCDEF-Hex]

This explains a lot of things:

How do you figure? You really think the 60 users who responded here represent a true sampling of MP users? I guess 99% of MP users don't read nor post here. I would further guess that the 1% who do participate in on-line forums to do with the MP are so far outside the normal it's just ridiculous. Most here are attention-seekers who wish to boost their sense of self worth by showing that they know something. A small minority are here to share a community spirit and a little information along the way, and fewer yet are here to learn something (because they're too lazy to look up the information on their own). I realize this paints a rather sad picture but it is what it is and as far as I can see that's what it is.

So Apple is going to listen to 30 out of 60 misfits and change a million dollar design? Really? I highly doubt it. I'd be willing to bet they will never ever see this poll nor read any of these comments - unless they're looking for a good laugh or something.

99% are getting work done and not posting threads like this:

AMD 7950 freezing and restarting under load
Screen Flickering with Sapphire 7950 Mac Edition
GTX 660 in MacPro causing shut downs?
Mac Pro 3,1 and ATI Radeon HD 5870 kills CPU power
Hope for official Blu-Ray option in new Mac Pro?
Mouse problems with Sonnet Allegro USB3 card

 

[flat five]

being smaller doesn't in any way make a workstation equivalent or better. To be one of those two qualifier or both, the nMP would have to offer the same functionnality and expension capability than the cMP, which it doesn't.

You've been told that many, many times but still you persist with only the cosmetic attribute of the nMP and not it's functionnality.

that's what i was getting at.. i didn't answer the question in your (and others) mind.. instead- i'm wrong and don't know what i'm talking about and/or what my computing needs are.


the only way i can answer questions to you is to give you answers you want to hear.

and besides- who says i want or need a 'workstation'? i want and need a turbocharged personal computer.. just like most other pros which fit into apple's target market.

[edit] - oh, but thankfully, apple does actually listen.. believe it or not they do.. it's just that they don't listen to you in the same way they listen to people like me.. because they know there are a zillion other computers available that fit your wants and needs perfectly.. and i think it's pretty obvious they don't want to build the same thing dell is building.

 

[flat five]

How do you figure? You really think the 60 users who responded here represent a true sampling of MP users?

not to mention the amount of users that actually vote in these polls in which we (or at least i) vote in the exact way the poll is designed to make you answer.

the members here make the most skewed and biased polls of any other forum i've ever seen.

why make a poll which is designed to give a predetermined outcome?
(rhetorical question)

 

[tuxon86]

that's what i was getting at.. i didn't answer the question in your (and others) mind.. instead- i'm wrong and don't know what i'm talking about and/or what my computing needs are.


the only way i can answer questions to you is to give you answers you want to hear.

and besides- who says i want or need a 'workstation'? i want and need a turbocharged personal computer.. just like most other pros which fit into apple's target market.

[edit] - oh, but thankfully, apple does actually listen.. believe it or not they do.. it's just that they don't listen to you in the same way they listen to people like me.. because they know there are a zillion other computers available that fit your wants and needs perfectly.. and i think it's pretty obvious they don't want to build the same thing dell is building.

There not listening to you either, because if the did they would scrap all the imacs and MP and only keep the mini and macbook air since it's all that is needed to design a skateboard ramp...

 

[deconstruct60]

defined the all in one market, that even HP is still copying ~ They only have one low selling model just like dell. The rest of their line up are tower or desktop based PC.

HP one? Hmmm

http://shopping1.hp.com/is-bin/INTE...k=?CatalogCategoryID=OpwQ7EN5lDMAAAEuvcYV2RWG

HP ProOne 600 G1 All-in-One Business PC (5)

HP EliteOne 800 G1 All-in-One Business PC (7)
HP Compaq Pro 4300 All-in-One Business PC (6)
HP Compaq Pro 6300 All-in-One Business PC (5)
HP Compaq Elite 8300 All-in-One Business PC (11)


Can HP , Dell , or any of the shotgun product line up vendors do one of anything?

first retina display in any laptop, the industry followed ~ Who followed? There isn'T any demand for it in the real world. And playing the LG/Samsung screen roulette isn't what I call a success story.

Shhh... don't tell Samsung about not following because nobody is going to buy it.....

http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/9/46...-plus-ativ-tab-3-price-release-date-announced


Seriously, when high resolutions displays drop down in costs about the same as what displays were 1-2 years ago you think most vendors are going to opt for the low-res ones? Please... not going to happen. Just look at the Smartphone line ups where everyone is jockeying to crank up ppi. Everyone is doing it. Even the TV folks are starting a drumbeat for 4K when there is no distribution mechanism for it.

first to delivery an a platform based on SATA PCI 3.2 blade SSD's, too soon. ~ They haven't produced anything yet. The nMP isn't out yet. You may be surprised to see it come first on an Asus or Gigabyte mobo before seing it on the nMP.

As pointed out recently.... the MBA 2013 editions have PCIe SSD and those are shipping. They aren't PCIe v3 but pretty close to the M.2/NGFF format.

And if anything this is "old" in that the XServes had SSD option a long while back. The form factor is adjusted but high end machine with SSD drive and the focus of most of the storage outside the box is rather not a new concept. Set the wayback machine to 2009 .....

http://blogs.computerworld.com/new_apple_xserves_offer_additional_ssd_bay

first to drop PCIe on their flagship desktop platform. ~ Droping what is the standard and easiest way to upgrade your machine yourself is neither an innovation nor a dicta.

Both points nonsense. Apple neither dropped PCIe nor does the legacy physical socket define PCIe.

 

[VirtualRain]

Nobody seems to want to answer this, it's ****ing unbelievable. Please tell me how the new Mac Pro is equivalent or better to the current Mac Pro. This is such an absurdly simple question it makes my head buzz when people just dance around the question.

Easy... tell me how you can install dual high-end GPU's, a USB 3 card, and a PCIe SSD in the current Mac Pro given that one of your GPUs is going to cover one of your slots. BTW, this comes standard on the new Mac Pro.

 

[flat five]

There not listening to you either, because if the did they would scrap all the imacs and MP and only keep the mini and macbook air since it's all that is needed to design a skateboard ramp...

sorry but i'm not going to sit around defending my life and work to the likes of you..
think what you want-- i don't give a shit

 

[tuxon86]

sorry but i'm not going to sit around defending my life and work to the likes of you..
think what you want-- i don't give a shit

Stone throwing... Glass house... Get the concept fast.

 

[flat five]

Stone throwing... Glass house... Get the concept fast.

that's not the concept.

you're (and others) quite literally describing computers that you want/need and they're readily available..
the whole argument centers around the fact that apple isn't also making that computer.. meanwhile failing to recognize that everyone may not want/need that computer.
it's pretty obvious that apple has a very small portion of the overall pro market buying their products.. but for whatever reason, you're sitting around arguing those 5% of people need/want the same computer that the other 95% of people are using.


it's just silly on a lot of levels from where i'm sitting.

 

[tuxon86]

that's not the concept.

you're (and others) quite literally describing computers that you want/need and they're readily available..
the whole argument centers around the fact that apple isn't also making that computer.. meanwhile failing to recognize that everyone may not want/need that computer.
it's pretty obvious that apple has a very small portion of the overall pro market buying their products.. but for whatever reason, you're sitting around arguing those 5% of people need/want the same computer that the other 95% of people are using.


it's just silly on a lot of levels from where i'm sitting.

What is silly is you who don't really have a need for a workstation class PC argumenting with people who do and until now were well deserved by Apple with the MP. You don't need a MP for what you are doing, you said so yourself. You don't use any extra capability that the MP offer over an iMac or a MBP.

Those who argue against the nMP don't argue because they don't like change. They argue because they won't be able to do the same thing that they are doing now with the nMP without blowing the budget on expensive and slower TB enclosure or devices, if they ever make it to market. And the choice of TB device isn't all that rosy either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thunderbolt-compatible_devices

Compare that with all that can be plugged into a PCIe slot.

Being small, cute and shiny is pretty low on the scale of business in the market to upgrade their workstations.

 

[flat five]

What is silly is you who don't really have a need for a workstation class PC argumenting with people who do and until now were well deserved by Apple with the MP. You don't need a MP for what you are doing, you said so yourself. You don't use any extra capability that the MP offer over an iMac or a MBP.

yes, i do.. i render.. and the new mac is a rendering machine.. a mbp or imac or mac mini or whatever else you think i need will not come close..

i also need a fast clock for drawing.. that's available in an imac but i have durability issues with it.. i don't like the idea that if the display goes, the computer is done.. i want displays as peripherals.. i also wouldn't feel too comfortable running an imac at full speed for days on end.. i don't feel comfortable doing that on my laptop either.

Compare that with all that can be plugged into a PCIe slot.

why do you need a mac pro? what are you using pci slots for?

----------

Those who argue against the nMP don't argue because they don't like change.

right-- they're not arguing.. they're whining.

because as far as i can gather, the nmp is here.. it's designed.. it's being manufactured and no amount of arguing is going to change that..
it's a done deal

theres nothing to argue about.. only things to whine about.

 

[tuxon86]

yes, i do.. i render.. and the new mac is a rendering machine.. a mbp or imac or mac mini or whatever else you think i need will not come close..

i also need a fast clock for drawing.. that's available in an imac but i have durability issues with it.. i don't like the idea that if the display goes, the computer is done.. i want displays as peripherals.. i also wouldn't feel too comfortable running an imac at full speed for days on end.. i don't feel comfortable doing that on my laptop either.







why do you need a mac pro? what are you using pci slots for?

----------



right-- they're not arguing.. they're whining.

because as far as i can gather, the nmp is here.. it's designed.. it's being manufactured and no amount of arguing is going to change that..
it's a done deal

theres nothing to argue about.. only things to whine about.

Why do you care? Why are you on a discussion forum called Mac Rumors then? Maybe you would be happier having a chat with Tim via email then.