Yep, for sure. I tried 8-bit HEVC in my iMac Pro, my 2016 MacBook Pro (13” 2 Thunderbolt 3 ports) and 2017 m3 MacBook. Each of them gave me this option and can be seen in my screenshot above.
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iMac Pro iMac Pro HEVC / H265
- Thread starter Trebuin
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Yep, for sure. I tried 8-bit HEVC in my iMac Pro, my 2016 MacBook Pro (13” 2 Thunderbolt 3 ports) and 2017 m3 MacBook. Each of them gave me this option and can be seen in my screenshot above.
Thanks guys. No matter what I do, which has included uninstalling and totally cleaning out Compressor and re-installing, installing MacOS again, even changing iMac Pros.... I don't get the setting. It's good to know I am not going crazy.
As a follow up to this, I have been in touch with AppleCare. Apple also verified that the accelerated 8-bit HEVC setting should be available on the iMac Pro.
I may just bite the bullet and install fresh, with no migrations, and reinstall everything. Seeing as this computer is technically a migrated install through a dozen plus computers going back to OSX Tiger 10.4 (G5!), it's probably smart to do so...
I just wish I could figure it out, as that's the sole issue I am having.
EDIT: Well I did bite the bullet. Fresh install without any migrations. A fast SSD and a gigabit internet connection did wonders as it took me about 3 hours to install everything from scratch, nice and clean.
Result: besides a lot more disc space free and some odd bugs gone, the HEVC 8-bit option is now available (in compressor).. and is quite fast. yay.
I may just bite the bullet and install fresh, with no migrations, and reinstall everything. Seeing as this computer is technically a migrated install through a dozen plus computers going back to OSX Tiger 10.4 (G5!), it's probably smart to do so...
I just wish I could figure it out, as that's the sole issue I am having.
EDIT: Well I did bite the bullet. Fresh install without any migrations. A fast SSD and a gigabit internet connection did wonders as it took me about 3 hours to install everything from scratch, nice and clean.
Result: besides a lot more disc space free and some odd bugs gone, the HEVC 8-bit option is now available (in compressor).. and is quite fast. yay.
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I'm a complete FCP novice trying to learn the ropes. Comments in this thread point to iMac Pro being very fast exporting h.264 and h.265 files. Today I tried exporting a short 1:30 project as both 4K h.264 and h.265. The project is a mix of 4K 60fps h.264 and h.265 clips from iPhone X. The h.264 export took 2:30 and the h.265 one took 2:53. I also tried exporting an h.265 file from the h.264 file that I exported from FCP using Compressor. That took 1:30. These times don't seem very fast, or am I wrong?
Different issue: several times in running these tests I've gotten an error message when selecting Apple Devices 4K (HVEC 8-bit) saying that the selection "uses software that is not installed or may no longer be supported". Removing it as a share destination and then adding it again from Compressor Settings clears the error.
Different issue: several times in running these tests I've gotten an error message when selecting Apple Devices 4K (HVEC 8-bit) saying that the selection "uses software that is not installed or may no longer be supported". Removing it as a share destination and then adding it again from Compressor Settings clears the error.
Below are some test export times on my 10-core iMac Pro and 2017 iMac 27 (min:sec)
iMac Pro export 60 sec 4k/29.97 ProRes to 4k H265 8-bit: 00:43
iMac Pro export 60 sec 4k/29.97 ProRes to 4k H265 10-bit: 22:02
iMac Pro export 60 sec 4k/29.97 H264 to 4k H264 Fast Encode: 00:45
iMac Pro export 60 sec 4k/29.97 H264 to 4k H264 Best Quality: 01:25
iMac Pro export 60 sec 4k/29.97 H264 to 4k ProRes 422: 00:23
iMac Pro export 60 sec 4k/29.97 ProRes 422 to 4k ProRes 422: 00:10
2017 iMac export 60 sec 4k/29.97 H264 to 4k H264 Fast Encode: 00:38
2017 iMac export 60 sec 4k/29.97 H264 to 4k H264 Best Quality: 01:11
2017 iMac export 60 sec 4k/29.97 H264 to 4k ProRes 422: 00:36
2017 iMac export 60 sec 4k/29.97 ProRes 422 to 4k ProRes 422: 00:13
Comments:
- FCPX is obviously not using hardware acceleration for HEVC/H265 10-bit export on the iMac Pro
- The 2017 top-spec iMac is a little faster at 4k H264 export than the 10-core Vega64 iMac Pro
- The iMac Pro is faster than the iMac at export from 4k H264 to 4k ProRes
- The iMac Pro is faster than the iMac on an all-ProRes workflow
iMac Pro: 10-core Vega64 iMac Pro, 64GB RAM, 2TB SSD, macOS 10.13.3, FCPX 10.4
2017 iMac: 4.2Ghz i7-7700K, 32GB RAM, Radeon Pro 580, 2TB SSD, macOS 10.12.6, FCPX 10.3.4
Camera and codec: Sony A7R2, XAVC-S, 4k/29.97 H264 100 mbps 8-bit 4:2:0
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I've found two significant issues with FCPX 10.4 HEVC support on the iMac Pro:
(1) There's a bug with the persistence of the HEVC preset when applied to FCPX. If I add the preset it works, then if I simply restart FCPX I get the error "HEVC 4k 8-bit: The setting 'Apple Devices 4K (HEVC 8-bit)' uses software that is not installed or may no longer be supported." It's not unique to 4k 8 bit but also happens on 10 bit HEVC.
This is 100% reproducible and not random.
Background: Since FCPX 10.4 by itself doesn't support HEVC, the preset must be added from Compressor. The procedure is described in this article by Larry Jordan: https://larryjordan.com/articles/configure-final-cut-pro-x-to-output-hevc-h-265/
My current workaround is remove and re-add the preset every time I use it. Fortunately I don't use HEVC except for testing.
(2) FCPX apparently only uses hardware acceleration for 8-bit encoding of 4k HEVC, not 10-bit (at least on the iMac Pro). A 60 sec 4k/29.97 ProRes clip takes about 43 sec to encode to 4k 8-bit HEVC, but it takes 22 *minutes* for 4k 10-bit HEVC, or 31 times slower than 8-bit encoding.
FCPX is apparently using AMD's VCE (Video Coding Engine) hardware acceleration for H264 and HEVC encode/decode. AMD's documentation says hardware acceleration for 4k 10-bit HEVC *decode* is available, but I cannot tell whether hardware acceleration is available for 4k 10-bit HEVC *encoding*. Whether it's not in the Vega hardware, or just doesn't work, or AMD's AMF framework doesn't expose it, or Apple isn't using it, this is a significant issue. It means on the iMac Pro 4k HEVC 10-bit encoding is almost unusable due to performance reasons.
See page 14 of the AMD white paper "Radeon's next generation Vega architecture: https://radeon.com/_downloads/vega-whitepaper-11.6.17.pdf
I would be very interested if FCPX 4k HEVC 10-bit hardware accelerated encoding works on a 2017 iMac Pro which uses Quick Sync. Has anyone tested that?
System info:
FCPX 10.4, Compressor 4.4, Apple Pro Video Formats 2.0.6, macOS 10.13.3, 10-core Vega 64 iMac Pro
(1) There's a bug with the persistence of the HEVC preset when applied to FCPX. If I add the preset it works, then if I simply restart FCPX I get the error "HEVC 4k 8-bit: The setting 'Apple Devices 4K (HEVC 8-bit)' uses software that is not installed or may no longer be supported." It's not unique to 4k 8 bit but also happens on 10 bit HEVC.
This is 100% reproducible and not random.
Background: Since FCPX 10.4 by itself doesn't support HEVC, the preset must be added from Compressor. The procedure is described in this article by Larry Jordan: https://larryjordan.com/articles/configure-final-cut-pro-x-to-output-hevc-h-265/
My current workaround is remove and re-add the preset every time I use it. Fortunately I don't use HEVC except for testing.
(2) FCPX apparently only uses hardware acceleration for 8-bit encoding of 4k HEVC, not 10-bit (at least on the iMac Pro). A 60 sec 4k/29.97 ProRes clip takes about 43 sec to encode to 4k 8-bit HEVC, but it takes 22 *minutes* for 4k 10-bit HEVC, or 31 times slower than 8-bit encoding.
FCPX is apparently using AMD's VCE (Video Coding Engine) hardware acceleration for H264 and HEVC encode/decode. AMD's documentation says hardware acceleration for 4k 10-bit HEVC *decode* is available, but I cannot tell whether hardware acceleration is available for 4k 10-bit HEVC *encoding*. Whether it's not in the Vega hardware, or just doesn't work, or AMD's AMF framework doesn't expose it, or Apple isn't using it, this is a significant issue. It means on the iMac Pro 4k HEVC 10-bit encoding is almost unusable due to performance reasons.
See page 14 of the AMD white paper "Radeon's next generation Vega architecture: https://radeon.com/_downloads/vega-whitepaper-11.6.17.pdf
I would be very interested if FCPX 4k HEVC 10-bit hardware accelerated encoding works on a 2017 iMac Pro which uses Quick Sync. Has anyone tested that?
System info:
FCPX 10.4, Compressor 4.4, Apple Pro Video Formats 2.0.6, macOS 10.13.3, 10-core Vega 64 iMac Pro
Did you try HEVC h.265 10-bit 4K encoding on the non-Pro 2017 iMac? Cuz according to info from Apple's WWDC sessions last year, they don't officially support hardware 10-bit HEVC encoding on any machine.
I didn't understand why at the time, since the 2017 iMac actually has the hardware to support hardware 10-bit HEVC encoding. However, if Vega truly doesn't support this, they couldn't very well implement it officially in the non-Pro iMac and not have the iMac Pro support it as well.
Thanks. No I couldn't try it because my 2017 iMac is stuck on Sierra and FCPX 10.3.4 due to a project. However you answered the question. It appears there's a software limit regardless of the current hardware. For Quick Sync it appears Kaby Lake supports hardware encoding for 10-bit HEVC, so at least those Macs may eventually do this, provided both OS and application layers support it: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1061...six-notebook-skus-desktop-coming-in-january/3
For iMac Pros which are using AMD's VCE, I don't know if their hardware supports it but that's currently a non-issue since the software doesn't yet.
On the iMac Pro the difference between hardware and software encoding is incredible: 31x difference. On H264 the difference was significant (maybe 4x or 5x) but you could get by with software encoding. With 4k HEVC, hardware acceleration may be mandatory for all practical purposes.
I just tested HEVC 4k 10-bit encoding on the iMac Pro using Premiere CC. That apparently worked fine at 10 bits, and it took 04:58 to encode a 60 sec clip at 15mbps, which is about 4x faster than FCPX on the same machine. This could imply Premiere is using some kind of hardware acceleration.
At 8 bits, FCPX is much faster -- about 45 sec vs 2:50 for Premiere. However if Premiere is capable of hardware-assisted 4k HEVC 10-bit encoding on the iMac Pro and Apple's own FCPX is not, that would be embarrassing. If Premiere is not using hardware acceleration on HEVC 10 bit, and it's 4x faster than FCPX with both using software encoding, that's also embarrassing for Apple.
I examined the output files with Invisor and they are both 10 bit HEVC UHD 4k files. The source file in all these was UHD 4k/29.97 ProRes.
Very interesting. Did you have a look at what the processors are doing during those tests?
In Premiere, all 10 cores were nearly pegged, in FCPX they were at about 40%. The GPU processor level as indicated by iStat Menus was zero for both. The CPU/GPU levels by themselves aren't always revealing. E.g, when scrubbing through a 4k H264 timeline, the CPU levels are low on FCPX and high on Premiere, yet FCPX is a lot quicker and more responsive. Likewise when exporting to H264.
However in the case of 4k 10-bit H265 on the iMac Pro, the stopwatch doesn't lie, and Premiere is a lot faster.
I bet it’s simply because PP can fully utilise all CPU power but FCPX cannot. For hardware encoding, 5min to encode a 1min video is very slow.
yes I see that. It's different than the original bug I reported - where NO hardware accelerated or usable 8-bit option existed in FCPX or Compressor - something was wrong and it wasn't using AMD's hardware. I couldn't do it at all. After a complete system and app reinstall from scratch, I currently have a usable preset for 8-bit hardware accelerated HEVC encoding in Compressor. But I can't use that preset in FCPX. I guess removing/re-adding is the workaround.
I find H.264 is very fast on the iMP, at least as fast as the i7 maxed iMac. On the old Mac Pro (2013) it was (relatively) horrendous. Never understood why they didn't use the AMD encoding block in the old MP (could they?). It's nice they do in iMP; the quality is superior to QS.
Apple says, at least for the 2018 Mac mini: "T2 also features HEVC video transcoding that’s up to an incredible 30 times faster, enabling pro users to work more quickly with higher resolution video throughout their workflow."
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/10/new-mac-mini-packs-huge-punch/
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/10/new-mac-mini-packs-huge-punch/
I noticed that... I wonder if they will unlock that for the T2 based MBP and the iMP?
Revisiting an old thread here as I have been successfully editing 10-bit 422 HEVC (XAVC-HS from a Sony A7SIII) with no issues on the Vega 64 iMac Pro. That's playback and so forth. Same on M1 MacBook Pro. 10 bit ENCODE however is limited to M1 and later graphic chips. Not sure if Apple turned that on for later AMD chips. 8 Bit encode is hardware accelerated on the iMac Pro.
If I export to H.264 on the iMac Pro it's no issue (at I assume 10 bit); it's fast and hardware accelerated. To get 10 bit HEVC encode/export, at any accelerated speed, I have to use the M1 Mac. The M1 decode/encode engines are extremely fast, beating the Vega 64. The Vega still wins on pure GPU power however. This mostly shows in export times being about 35% faster on the iMac with any plugins used. And I can use a GPU heavy plugin like FilmConvert natively on both Macs, but the M1 has to play back "best performance" with 10bit 422 anything (H.264/265) but the iMac can playback at better quality.
The M1 does have better overall timeline performance either way, oddly. It is an extremely impressive chip; I can fully edit with basically the same workflow as on the iMac Pro in a tiny unit. Only export times or heavy 3D titles/effects suffer a bit, if not much.
NOTE - the M1 can accelerate playback of 8K HEVC 422 as well, which is amazing. The iMac Pro, no way. It can do fine on transcoded 8K, RedRaw, BRAW, H.264 but not HEVC 265.
If I export to H.264 on the iMac Pro it's no issue (at I assume 10 bit); it's fast and hardware accelerated. To get 10 bit HEVC encode/export, at any accelerated speed, I have to use the M1 Mac. The M1 decode/encode engines are extremely fast, beating the Vega 64. The Vega still wins on pure GPU power however. This mostly shows in export times being about 35% faster on the iMac with any plugins used. And I can use a GPU heavy plugin like FilmConvert natively on both Macs, but the M1 has to play back "best performance" with 10bit 422 anything (H.264/265) but the iMac can playback at better quality.
The M1 does have better overall timeline performance either way, oddly. It is an extremely impressive chip; I can fully edit with basically the same workflow as on the iMac Pro in a tiny unit. Only export times or heavy 3D titles/effects suffer a bit, if not much.
NOTE - the M1 can accelerate playback of 8K HEVC 422 as well, which is amazing. The iMac Pro, no way. It can do fine on transcoded 8K, RedRaw, BRAW, H.264 but not HEVC 265.
Not quite the same here.
I used FFMpeg to benchmark the hardware decoding + hardware encoding performance (e.g. from H264 to HEVC at a specific target bitrate). The M1 (Macbook Air) is nowhere near that my Radeon VII can perform (on a Mac Pro 5,1, as per my signature).
Do you mean “export a timeline” is fast on the M1? In that case, I won’t argue. But export a timeline isn’t a good way to measure pure hardware decoding / encoding performance.
Of course, FFMpeg need Rosetta 2, may be not that fair to the M1 yet. M1. The Radeon VII also much more expensive, has much better cooling, draw much more power, etc.
However, so far, I can’t see the M1’s pure hardware decoding / encoding performance is that good.
From memory, my Radeon VII is about 50% faster in the hardware transcoding test. The M1’s video engine’s raw performance doesn’t look that “extremely fast” to me.
By considering the Radeon VII isn’t that much faster than the Vega64. I do t think the M1’s video engine can really beat the Vega’s video engine.
i’m talking about exporting a timeline where the iMac Pro is still faster... but I’m also talking about general timeline performance editing compressed HEVC footage where playback is in real time (all in Apple‘s own optimized FCP), where they’re performing similarly. FFMPeg is also running on Rosetta, and it’s not at all optimized to utilize the M1 encoding engine. Of course it’s going to be faster on your intel Mac Pro.
I don't have an M1 to test but I have the A7SIII, FX6 and a Vega 64 iMac Pro, also FCP and Resolve Studio 17. In general 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 is more problematic from an NLE playback standpoint there's a lot of variation based on NLE and hardware.
On export FCP obviously isn't doing accelerated encoding for 10-bit HEVC on the iMac Pro. But Resolve 17 apparently is because it's really fast.
Playback of "difficult" compressed codecs seems somewhat smoother on my 2017 iMac 27 than on the iMac Pro. IMO this implies the Kaby Lake version of Quick Sync is better than the T2-based acceleration on the iMac Pro. In theory on the iMac Pro the app could use either T2 or AMD's UVD/VCE accelerator but my guess is FCP uses T2.
However playback smoothness is very difficult to test consistently. What does "smooth" even mean? Lag time to JKL input? Frame rate? Playhead responsiveness? E.g, on Premiere the playhead is very responsive but the viewer tends to be very slow. On FCP the viewer is very responsive but the playhead tends to stutter more. There are varying perceptual issues in how we view different metrics.
Even similar codecs from the same mfg show significant variation in performance. 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 XAVC-L (essentially H264) from the Sony FX6 is smoother in FCP 10.5.2 on the iMac Pro than similar 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 XAVC-S from the A7SIII, which is also H264.
Using Resolve Studio 17 on the same iMac Pro, those two 10-bit Long GOP codecs are slower than on FCP and 10-bit 4:2:2 XAVC-S is quite sluggish in Resolve.
The 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 XAVC-HS codec (HEVC) is very sluggish in FCP 10.5.2 on the iMac Pro but even worse on Resolve Studio 17. So Resolve is really fast at 10-bit HEVC export (which is 8-bit BTW), but really slow at 10-bit 4:2:2 HEVC playback.
You are correct that the previous x86 Macs and especially the iMac Pro are just not good at playback of the newer 10-bit 4:2:2 Long GOP codecs. The GPU on the iMac Pro is still pretty good so if doing something like Neat Video it would possibly be a lot faster than the M1, assuming an Apple Silicon version of Neat Video existed.
Digital Anarchy just released an Apple Silicon version of their Flicker Free plugin. That is extremely compute-intensive so would be interesting to test between an M1 Mac and various x86 desktop Macs.
I was waiting on since you are aware of the most knowledgeable people I have seen on the Internet on the subject!
all I can explain is what I see… I agree with everything you say above. I was shocked to see the iMac Pro edit HEVC-HS 422 10 bit 4k (single stream; I haven’t tested multicam) as smooth as XAVC-S 420 8 bit 4k. Without transcoding, with effects applied. For some reason I got it in my head that I would not even be possible because the machine doesn’t have the right hardware but I was thinking about encoding not decode.
M1 has hardware encode and decode for 10 bit HEVC as you know.
by responsiveness I mean both viewer performance as linked to JKL. Both. I find the M1 is smoother when scrubbing and performing at its perceptually than the iMac Pro which may be better at viewer performance. If that makes any sense.
I have not tested resolve on the iMac Pro. I was using it to transcode blackmagic raw but I am selling that camera as I find the A7S3 that’s just as good of a job visually for a much smaller footprint with much better battery life and superb auto focus when I have a shoot solo. The BMPCC 6k does have a nicer image, slightly (color and obviously detail), albeit with less DR … but it’s just messy with batteries and it’s a manual focus thing. Not good for shooting interviews etc solo.
I will miss the iMac Pro. It serves me very well even with modern codecs which is delightful. The hardware I predicted would be solidly “fast” for about 5 years and I was right. I’ll drive it into the ground.
The M1 GPU is no match for even the Vega 64. On raw power. But the system architecture of what Apple put together has efficiencies in other areas that make it feel a lot faster than it is. Practically speaking it’s about the speed of the old trashcan D700 Mac Pro, which means real 4K editing is possible in a cheap tiny notebook that lasts 4-8 hours while doing real work and never gets hot.
I’m beyond impressed… and that’s round 1!!