In 3 years, 50% of all computers capable of playing AAA games will be Macs

[M3gatron]

Well, you certainly don't have to agree with me. But you're going to have to explain why you believe that sinking millions into advertising only attracts people to game on Windows, Playstation and Xbox, but not on MacOS?!?

I don't agree with you because you are not right.
When the user you replayed to said "killer games" he meant high end games most people want to play, he didn't necessary mean exclusive games.
The reality is that out of all the high end games(AAA) that get announced in a year, if MacOS gets 1 or 2 ports it's already a miracle. I don't think it would be impossible if Apple put a little effort into it, to get like 3-4 AAA game ports on their platform in 1 year, they don't even need to be only the latest games.

 

[Ethosik]

If it's console+Windows it's a multi-platform game.

Yes and multi-platform, two platforms CAN BE exclusives. That is Microsoft's entire business model. Exclusivity is not limited to just one thing. Its a Microsoft exclusive - which is Xbox and Windows.

You said its okay if Mac isn't perfect in getting AAA games, so what are you posting about? Macs are doing just fine with the level of games they get with how much marketshare macs have. I think its doing just fine. And it makes sense from a business POV - as in my situation that has a business to run so I am targeting Windows to get a better ROI.

And what exactly are you expecting Apple to do here. If you demand 3-4 titles, what exactly is your solution? You can't force a developer to make something they don't want to make.

 

[diamond.g]

So what if its a Playstation exclusive list. Have you ever thought maybe these are console + windows exclusives? That is actually entirely Microsoft's position right now. Xbox + Windows exclusive. Windows is just another platform. So you are saying its fine if Windows doesn't get games because they are console exclusives. Well the industry is basically console + windows exclusive. So what is the issue here? Again, its all up to the developers.

The point is, as an actual game developer, Windows is the preferred platform. Stop blaming Apple for this situation. They can lead the developers to water (which they have), but they cannot force developers to drink. They cannot force me to make my game on macOS and I am not going to. The marketshare is a complete joke and my ROI for my business is not favorable by releasing a game on mac. Its not a hardware issue. Nintendo Switch gets WAY more games than macOS and it has even crappier hardware. And no, its not because its "nintendo", remember Wii U? That was a failure because of almost no third party support. Switch is far more successful, more marketshare meaning more of a focus for devs.

Edit: And honestly, the AAA industry is a giant mess right now. Top 50 upcoming games? I bet I will be able to count on one hand the number of those that will be good. I mean Microsoft messed up Halo....HOW?!? How do you mess up Halo to the point where they are doing a complete reset now. How do you make promises "every game from now on will have couch split screen co op", and not follow through with that? AAA games are just lootboxes, battle passes, micro transaction filled messes with buggy and "live services" then the game gets shut down a year later. The way Activision Blizzard is being handled with their attitude towards their workers and not doing anything, similar reports with ubisoft, these companies are not getting any more money from me until they get their act together. E3 is essentially dead. Forspoken is a complete mess. Gaming has been my biggest hobby and its getting worse and worse to be this interested in gaming. I took time off work back in the day to watch and even go to some E3 events.

Forspoken is fine. It may not have lived up to Sony’s hype, but the game is perfectly serviceable.

 

[M3gatron]

Yes and multi-platform, two platforms CAN BE exclusives. That is Microsoft's entire business model. Exclusivity is not limited to just one thing. Its a Microsoft exclusive - which is Xbox and Windows.

It makes no sense to insist that games don't get ported to MacOS because they are "Windows and Console Exclusives", I've never heard any game developer to mention such a thing.

You said its okay if Mac isn't perfect in getting AAA games, so what are you posting about? Macs are doing just fine with the level of games they get with how much marketshare macs have. I think its doing just fine. And it makes sense from a business POV - as in my situation that has a business to run so I am targeting Windows to get a better ROI.

Of course I've said "its okay if Mac isn't perfect in getting AAA games", I never claimed it has to be perfect in the first place, never heard anybody make such a statement.
Mac is doing fine if you have ZERO expectation. My point was to address the title of this thread. Certain things were said 2 years ago in case you missed you can revisit the first few pages.

And what exactly are you expecting Apple to do here. If you demand 3-4 titles, what exactly is your solution? You can't force a developer to make something they don't want to make.

I expect them to actively engage with game developers and find out what they need to do to get more games on their platform and do it. Nobody said anything to force anybody to do do anything, it called negotiation and making an effort, or that's just too much for Apple? Maybe they don't have enough money? maybe they don't have enough staff? yeah Apple is just a poor startup, how can somebody dare to have any expectations form them?

 

[Ethosik]

It makes no sense to insist that games don't get ported to MacOS because they are "Windows and Console Exclusives", I've never heard any game developer to mention such a thing.

Then look at Microsoft's announcements and press releases. Its "Microsoft Exclusive" meaning Xbox and Windows. That is their entire stance on Game Pass to be Microsoft platform exclusive.

And I am saying you forgive Playstation exclusives, so why is it a problem with Windows games? Many devs (myself here included) are making their game exclusive on Windows. I don't slap a "Windows Exclusive" on the artwork or anything.

Edit: More on the dev side because it does come into play. Games are primarily built first for consoles. We have had very bad PC ports over the years but run fine on consoles. Even with Windows and how much support it has. I plan to create a detailed overview on this topic from a game dev perspective but for now here is a video from Linus that essentially covers all the major beats. Releasing a game on Console and PC is a lot of work. And spoiler alert, even my Unity game which by default has a macOS option and my game DOES run on macOS, there are some platform specific bugs to work out. How is this related to this discussion? Well people can't just check a box and port to a platform, even one with all these tools and support as Windows. So macOS is in a far worse position.

 

[Ethosik]

Forspoken is fine. It may not have lived up to Sony’s hype, but the game is perfectly serviceable.

Not really when it looks like a PS4 game and even the PS5 is 900p upscaled and not even getting 60fps in performance mode on console. Its essentially a 2022 game. 1080p 60fps should be the standard at this point in time. It also has CW level dialog that is just "turn off the game now" worthy. You need a 3070 and 24GB of RAM on Windows to run it recommended.

 

[M3gatron]

Then look at Microsoft's announcements and press releases. Its "Microsoft Exclusive" meaning Xbox and Windows. That is their entire stance on Game Pass to be Microsoft platform exclusive.

I don't have to look at anything, there's a big number of AAA games released each year which aren't platform exclusives, games that support multiple platforms, you are just insisting with an excuse that isn't relevant. Anyway, doesn't make much sense in the first place to claim that the reason none of the games presented in that Top 50 list I linked was announced for MacOS because they are all exclusive to either PlayStation or PC or PC+Xbox or Switch. Some of the games there were announced for PC+PS5+PS4+XSX/S+Xbox One+Switch, a lot of them are PC+PS5+XSX, there's no exclusivity.

 

[Ethosik]

I don't have to look at anything, there's a big number of AAA games released each year which aren't platform exclusives, games that support multiple platforms, you are just insisting with an excuse that isn't relevant. Anyway, doesn't make much sense in the first place to claim that the reason none of the games presented in that Top 50 list I linked was announced for MacOS because they are all exclusive to either PlayStation or PC or PC+Xbox or Switch. Some of the games there were announced for PC+PS5+PS4+XSX/S+Xbox One+Switch, a lot of them are PC+PS5+XSX, there's no exclusivity.

You are right, we are going in circles. But my point is Microsoft DID reframe their exclusives to be Microsoft Platform (which is Xbox - Microsoft operating system and Windows - Microsoft operating system). So these upcoming Xbox titles that are Xbox and Windows ONLY are framed by Microsoft to be Microsoft Platform Exclusive. We can end the discussion there as its not truly relevant at hand just want to point this out.

Well you are right in some ways too. Take Skyrim. That has been ported to everything including your kitchen sink. But is it REALLY Apple's fault its not on macOS? Its the developers fault, simple as that. Console -> PC -> Switch is just as complex as porting a game to macOS. Look at how much the devs did to make Doom 2016 work on the Switch. That took significant effort! Why didn't they release a macOS version?

Each environment needs to be thoroughly tested (back with Xbox One I tried my hand in developing an Xbox game and there are issues to work out that were not present in my Windows build). Even back with the Xbox 360 with XNA and MonoGame today and Unity today that has multi-platform built right out of the box requires significant effort to make sure your game runs well on other platforms.

 

[Zest28]

You are right, we are going in circles. But my point is Microsoft DID reframe their exclusives to be Microsoft Platform (which is Xbox - Microsoft operating system and Windows - Microsoft operating system). So these upcoming Xbox titles that are Xbox and Windows ONLY are framed by Microsoft to be Microsoft Platform Exclusive. We can end the discussion there as its not truly relevant at hand just want to point this out.

Well you are right in some ways too. Take Skyrim. That has been ported to everything including your kitchen sink. But is it REALLY Apple's fault its not on macOS? Its the developers fault, simple as that. Console -> PC -> Switch is just as complex as porting a game to macOS. Look at how much the devs did to make Doom 2016 work on the Switch. That took significant effort! Why didn't they release a macOS version?

Each environment needs to be thoroughly tested (back with Xbox One I tried my hand in developing an Xbox game and there are issues to work out that were not present in my Windows build). Even back with the Xbox 360 with XNA and MonoGame today and Unity today that has multi-platform built right out of the box requires significant effort to make sure your game runs well on other platforms.

it is Apple their fault. It requires too much energy and effort to port to Mac. And it is easy to port games to the Ninento Switch too depending which game engines is being used. Nintendo made sure of that.

If a game developer wants to port a game to Mac, they even have to outsource to a company specialized in making Mac ports.

 

[jeanlain]

here is a video from Linus that essentially covers all the major beats

It's interesting that these issues wouldn't affect Apple Silicon, had Apple released a game console, as the hardware would be more uniform.

 

[jeanlain]

it is Apple their fault. It requires too much energy and effort to port to Mac. And it is easy to port games to the Ninento Switch too depending which game engines is being used. Nintendo made sure of that.

They made sure of that simply by releasing a game console. It's not that their tools for game development are better than Apple's.
Fewer people developing AAA game engines are competent in Metal, but that doesn't mean that it's harder to use. Xcode and Metal provide great tools for game developers.
Case in point, thousands of developers do games for iOS using Apple tools, which are not fundamentally different from the tools you would use to develop AAA titles.

Apple can do everything they can to help AAA game development on the software side, they may even port DX to macOS, no AAA game studio will bother to look if the Mac the market share remains low.

 

[Zest28]

They made sure of that simply by releasing a game console. It's not that their tools for game development are better than Apple's.
Fewer people developing AAA game engines are competent in Metal, but that doesn't mean that it's harder to use. Xcode and Metal provide great tools for game developers.
Case in point, thousands of developers do games for iOS using Apple tools, which are not fundamentally different from the tools you would use to develop AAA titles.

Apple can do everything they can to help AAA game development on the software side, they may even port DX to macOS, no AAA game studio will bother to look if the Mac the market share remains low.

Nintendo didn't make their own game engine, the game engines that AAA developers use is easy to port to Ninentdo Switch, which Nintendo did put alot of effort into it. And it is a superior solution than Metal which nobody uses for AAA games. And this is typical Apple, they want to enforce a standard that nobody uses besides Apple.

I'm sure AAA game developers could launch Mac games if they wanted to, but it’s too much of a pain for them to do it.

And mobile "games" are nothing more than casino's, they are not real games. So that is a bad example to use.

If Apple wants more AAA games on MAC, then Apple should make it much more easier to port it. EA would launch all their titles on Mac no problem if it was piss easy to port them.

 

[Zest28]

Apple = you make games the way I tell you to.
Nintendo = we accept the way games are made and we will adopt to you.

That is the difference. And that is why Mac will never be a gaming platform.

 

[nasmdhgf]

It depends on how good of a programmer you are. If you know your stuff you can optimze it well. At WWDC21 Apple revealed that 4A and Larian Studios had asked them for help for optimizing Metro Exodus and BG3 for Apple Silicon and Metal and Apple had happily helped them for free. Metro Exodus uses MoltenVK and got a big performance boost by the optimization.

I'm not talking about execution efficiency (that's not what I care about). I'm talking about stability. First of all, DX is unstable when it turns to VK, and then VK is unstable when it turns to METAL. This instability can be superimposed. Do you want your game to suddenly suffocate? Even cause the computer to crash?
No matter how good a programmer is, it is difficult to grasp the problems caused by complex transformations. You will spend a month or even half a year looking for errors and fixing them (or may not be able to fix them).

 

[galad]

It's mostly not a technically issue. There are so many games out there using Unreal Engine or Unity, but without a Mac version.

 

[quarkysg]

Nintendo didn't make their own game engine, the game engines that AAA developers use is easy to port to Ninentdo Switch, which Nintendo did put alot of effort into it. And it is a superior solution than Metal which nobody uses for AAA games. And this is typical Apple, they want to enforce a standard that nobody uses besides Apple.

Just want to point out that Metal is a lower level driver. I’m very sure the Nintendo switch has similar low level drivers. Also if I’m not wrong there are game engines already supported by their developers in macOS, which also supports Metal.

You seem to equate Metal to games engine, which it is not.

 

[jeanlain]

Nintendo didn't make their own game engine, the game engines that AAA developers use is easy to port to Ninentdo Switch, which Nintendo did put alot of effort into it. And it is a superior solution than Metal which nobody uses for AAA games. And this is typical Apple, they want to enforce a standard that nobody uses besides Apple.

Not sure what this has to do with my post. I didn't say Nintendo made or imposes game engines. Neither does Apple.
How are Nintendo's APIs and tools superior to Apple's?
In fact, porting to the Switch is a real challenge due to hardware restrictions. It would be easier to port a recent game to the current AppleTV, which is much more capable than the Switch.

Nintendo's standard isn't different from Metal in that it's specific to Nintendo. Metal is used by hundreds of thousands of games/apps on iOS.
The difference is that more users are willing to play AAA games on the Switch than on the Mac. It's just that. It's not the APIs, it's not the SoC. Make DX compatible with macOS and this won't change anything.

 

[jeanlain]

Apple = you make games the way I tell you to.
Nintendo = we accept the way games are made and we will adopt to you.

This is just just wrong. The Nintendo game store is subject to restrictions while on the Mac, you don't have to use the App Store. You can use many APIs, including openGL (not recommended, but it works), Metal and Vulkan (via moltenVK).
I don't think you have this flexibility with the Switch.

 

[Zest28]

Just want to point out that Metal is a lower level driver. I’m very sure the Nintendo switch has similar low level drivers. Also if I’m not wrong there are game engines already supported by their developers in macOS, which also supports Metal.

You seem to equate Metal to games engine, which it is not.

The dude I was replying said this.

"They made sure of that simply by releasing a game console. It's not that their tools for game development are better than Apple's."

And I was simply pointing out that Nintendo didn't make tools, the game engines that AAA developers use are easy to port to Nintendo Switch. Nintendo worked together with a few popular game engines to achieve this.

Just because a game engine supports metal, doesn't mean a Xbox Series X game will work on a MAC without seriously re-developing the game which costs alot of money and time that could have been spend working on an other console game.

 

[nasmdhgf]

You are right, we are going in circles. But my point is Microsoft DID reframe their exclusives to be Microsoft Platform (which is Xbox - Microsoft operating system and Windows - Microsoft operating system). So these upcoming Xbox titles that are Xbox and Windows ONLY are framed by Microsoft to be Microsoft Platform Exclusive. We can end the discussion there as its not truly relevant at hand just want to point this out.

Well you are right in some ways too. Take Skyrim. That has been ported to everything including your kitchen sink. But is it REALLY Apple's fault its not on macOS? Its the developers fault, simple as that. Console -> PC -> Switch is just as complex as porting a game to macOS. Look at how much the devs did to make Doom 2016 work on the Switch. That took significant effort! Why didn't they release a macOS version?

Each environment needs to be thoroughly tested (back with Xbox One I tried my hand in developing an Xbox game and there are issues to work out that were not present in my Windows build). Even back with the Xbox 360 with XNA and MonoGame today and Unity today that has multi-platform built right out of the box requires significant effort to make sure your game runs well on other platforms.

This also proves one thing,
Although the unity (and godot, ue5) supporting multiple platforms is great, it is not the most urgent need.
It must be judged according to the actual number of game buyers and the difficulty of transplantation.
I think game developers should first focus on the Windows platform and give consideration to Linux.
For example, DX11 or DX12 interfaces are mainly used, and then OPENGL is used as a supplement (migrating to LINUX, Android, SWITCH, etc.).
These platforms with a small number of people do not need to spend too much effort to make it run fastest, which is meaningless.
Just like the localization of game language, if only 10 people buy my game, why should I add the native language of your country?
So it is unnecessary to learn and use Vulkan, which will waste a lot of time and spirit to build interfaces (and fix bugs). Opengl is very simple, so it is convenient to add interfaces, because the engine generally has an interface abstraction layer, which does not care what API you use.
What's more, even in Windows, there are many neglected games, so if the game is not very popular, you can not consider the issue of transplantation first. So there is only one platform to worry about.

 

[nasmdhgf]

it is Apple their fault. It requires too much energy and effort to port to Mac. And it is easy to port games to the Ninento Switch too depending which game engines is being used. Nintendo made sure of that.

If a game developer wants to port a game to Mac, they even have to outsource to a company specialized in making Mac ports.

Unity personal version and enhanced version do not have the ability to migrate to the console. Developers must subscribe to their professional version, which means that they pay $2000 a year, which is much more expensive than Apple's registration fee. So I'm not very interested in switch. Even if everyone has unity, it is not so easy to transplant.
This is why the self-developed engine has this advantage, because you can directly transplant it without the consent of unity or paying the authorization fee to request them to open the console (advanced) function to you.

 

[Ethosik]

it is Apple their fault. It requires too much energy and effort to port to Mac. And it is easy to port games to the Ninento Switch too depending which game engines is being used. Nintendo made sure of that.

If a game developer wants to port a game to Mac, they even have to outsource to a company specialized in making Mac ports.

More energy than making a AAA game work on a Nintendo Switch? I don't think so. Even on like platform (Xbox -> Windows) there is a significant effort. Have you developed cross platform games? It is not easy.

 

[Ethosik]

It's mostly not a technically issue. There are so many games out there using Unreal Engine or Unity, but without a Mac version.

My point exactly. These engines have baked macOS packaging by default. As I mentioned, my game can be one click deployed to macOS. BUT there are significant testing and platform bugs to work out. Just like when I wanted to test my Windows game on Xbox. There are some oddities for each platform. Therefore, I am not putting energy in my business to focus on a macOS port. Right now it runs to a certain point but crashes due to a bug, but it does not have this issue on Windows.

 

[Homy]

I'm not talking about execution efficiency (that's not what I care about). I'm talking about stability. Do you want your game to suddenly suffocate? Even cause the computer to crash?

Well, Metro Exodus seems pretty stable and neither suffocates nor crashes. I guess Apple taught them a magic spell to avoid those problems.

 

[Homy]

here is a video from Linus that essentially covers all the major beats. Releasing a game on Console and PC is a lot of work.

It's interesting that these issues wouldn't affect Apple Silicon, had Apple released a game console, as the hardware would be more uniform.

It was as if he was describing the benefits of Apple Silicon while talking about consoles: Shared memory pool, one unified architecture to develop for instead of lots of different HW combinations.