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Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
Well once you upgrade the mini this is cheap 32GB 1TB in the Mini is 1899$ vs 949$ here and it comes with activated win 11 pro.
So the adware comes preinstalled.😆 If you buy M2 Pro level of RAM, you better know for what you need all that compute power.
Apple base specs suck and their upgrade prices are nuts, who want 8gb and 256gb anyway.
It’s by far the most popular configuration of all and you know it.
If it is purely for gaming I guess PS5 and Xbox are the best options anyway.
If Windows isn’t the best option for gaming, what is it even good for? 🤷
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
2,666
OBX
So the adware comes preinstalled.😆 If you buy M2 Pro level of RAM, you better know for what you need all that compute power.

It’s by far the most popular configuration of all and you know it.

If Windows isn’t the best option for gaming, what is it even good for? 🤷
If you have a Windows machine you don't really need an Xbox, IMO.
 
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Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,449
859
Mac gaming is worse than I thought so calling it funeral home isn't far off. Suffering from ultra low frame rate on MacOS decided to give Linux a try since it's going places with Steam Deck, Proton, Lutris, etc.

MacOS on M1 MBA (~5fps)
View attachment 2203445

Linux on $400 x64 laptop at same resolution and graphics settings (~88fps)
View attachment 2203446

After dual booting Linux on Apple Silicon was hit with reality that nothing mainstream like Steam and games run on AARCH64. At least it's getting 1000+ fps with glxgears demo.

View attachment 2203447

Stop trying to make gaming on Linux a thing.

It’s a fact that everybody knows that Linux sucks for gaming.

What would happen if Valve shuttered their doors tomorrow? Bye bye, Steam Deck!!
 

nasmdhgf

macrumors member
Jan 23, 2023
64
29
Anyone who writes new code benefits from being able to address Mac, iPad and iPhone with Metal API. Whereas Android and Windows remain separated forever. Unreal Engine 5.2 now comes with native support for Apple Silicon on the Mac and potentially iOS as well. Users who already own Intel Macs benefit from old machines still being useful (and thus valuable) for running old code. This makes for a nice clean technological break. Whether you want to run legacy code or benefit from new developments, one can give you a clear recommendation. Not only is there less code to maintain for Apple engineers, Apple silicon can also drop 32-bit hardware support, which makes smaller, faster, more efficient chips. Thanks to dropping backward compatibility, Macs are the thinnest, lightest, coolest, quietest computers with the longest battery life. Lower production and maintenance costs for Apple also mean Macs are becoming more price competitive. It used to be that you didn't pay much more than for a similarly equipped PC. Now you actually pay less for a Mac than for its PC counterpart. And then there are countless little things you can only get on a Mac. Those come from Apple eating its own dog food and demonstrating what only Apple Silicon can do. You can be stuck on x86 forever, if you want. The perfect machine to run 32-bit code was already built years ago. We don't need to burden future computers with this outdated technology.
I hope you can achieve this dream in 10 years, but to my knowledge, currently Arm64 cannot surpass X86_64.
However, it can be surpassed verbally.
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,449
859
Well once you upgrade the mini this is cheap
32GB 1TB in the Mini is 1899$ vs 949$ here and it comes with activated win 11 pro.

Apple base specs suck and their upgrade prices are nuts, who want 8gb and 256gb anyway.

If it is purely for gaming I guess Ps5 and Xbox are the best options anyway.

How much should we want?
 
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GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,127
2,707
So that's the price without RAM, SSD, software and taxes?
And I thought the Mac mini was too expensive. 😂
Yes, comparison lacks though. Would be better compared to a Studio with Max SoC, so you're looking at a $2k entry price vs $759 + RAM + SSD. Still wouldn't buy it though, I'd get a "proper" case.
 

Gudi

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May 3, 2013
4,590
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I hope you can achieve this dream in 10 years, but to my knowledge, currently Arm64 cannot surpass X86_64.
However, it can be surpassed verbally.
Macs were already better computers when both ran on the same silicon. There was nothing to surpass, Windows was never leading on quality only quantity. And that's computer history with the advent of iOS.
If you have a Windows machine you don't really need an Xbox, IMO.
PlayStation has a 70% global console market share versus Xbox's 30%, according to Microsoft claims on the hearing of the takeover of Activision Blizzard. That's much better than Zune.
 
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Gudi

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May 3, 2013
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Berlin, Berlin
Would be better compared to a Studio with Max SoC, so you're looking at a $2k entry price vs $759 + RAM + SSD. Still wouldn't buy it though, I'd get a "proper" case.
I don't have spare money to waste, that's why I buy one Mac a decade for about €1000. Don't tell me you're cheaper, your Mini PC still has no display, keyboard, mouse, webcam, speakers and microphone!
 
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GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,127
2,707
I don't have spare money to waste, that's why I buy one Mac a decade for about €1000. Don't tell me you're cheaper, your Mini PC still has no display, keyboard, mouse, webcam, speakers and microphone!
"Your"? How is it mine? I didn't even recommend it. Reading helps sometimes. News to me that a Mini comes with all those accessories. Wonder how they fit the display into that small box. But it's clear by your statements that you're a Mac fanboy and not open to any realistic discussion. I guess the reason that Macs can't be surpassed is also the reason they're market leader everywhere and we rarely find Windows and Linux boxes anywhere. Just look at all these Macs used in cloud services, wow... oh, wait... never mind.

Summary, the $759 + RAM + SDD competes with a $2k Studio that also comes without display or any other accessories. And no, I don't buy only Macs, I buy whatever I need and certainly not only once a decade.
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
2,510
2,462
Sweden
macOS Catalina removed 32-bit support (in preparation for Apple Silicon) in 2019.

This is exactly why I'm done with gaming on Mac.

For the record Metro Last Light Complete is the older delisted 32-bit version av Metro Last Light Redux which is 64-bit with a newer game engine and works perfectly fine on Apple Silicon. Redux also contains all the old DLCs so people complaining apparently don't know this. Otherwise why bother?
 
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Gudi

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May 3, 2013
4,590
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I guess the reason that Macs can't be surpassed is also the reason they're market leader everywhere and we rarely find Windows and Linux boxes anywhere.
Sure, they are. You can lead a market by profit, by innovation or by mindshare. I'm not going to WinRumors for the latest news. Or you can lead by market share by making cheap copies of last year's Apple products. I pity the poor people who must live on Samsung and Microsoft products, now with more ads.

More ads in Windows 11 Start Menu could be last straw for some
Just look at all these Macs used in cloud services, wow... oh, wait... never mind.
Don't worry about servers. These people know about the value of energy efficiency. They won't be stuck on water-cooled x86_64 with blinking LED strips.

Macmini.png

Summary, the $759 + RAM + SDD competes with a $2k Studio that also comes without display or any other accessories. And no, I don't buy only Macs, I buy whatever I need and certainly not only once a decade.
So if you'd need a Mac Studio, you would buy one! Most people don't, which is why it is odd that the Studio is your example for why PCs are so much more affordable? You literally picked the most expensive Mac of the lineup and argued against its price. That's like saying, you can't possibly drive a Volkswagen, because the GTI Roadster Vision Gran Turismo costs $2,000,000.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,127
2,707
Sure, they are.
No, they're not. You don't lead a market by profit, let's not have this nonsense discussion, which has been discussed before, yet people with their head in the sand still don't get it. Check the market share for hardware and OS's used. When I approach a cloud center or supplier and ask for 10000 systems, guess what would happen Mac vs. PC hardware.

Don't worry about servers.
But I do. I regularly buy them and rent in cloud centers. AWS is a partner. Sure they have Macs, a tiny, tiny fraction. Other partners are Oracle, same story. Check what they've built at CERN. Macs are on many places, just tiny, tiny fraction of installed hardware. We've used ARM long before Apple made the switch.

So if you'd need a Mac Studio, you would buy one! Most people don't, which is why it is odd that the Studio is your example for why PCs are so much more affordable?
Good god, can you read?!? Doesn't seem like it, or is it the understanding?
First, if I need a Studio then I'd buy one. Of course. I don't, because I already have a MBP16 with a Max. The Ultra doesn't give me the performance I need/want. I will happily buy a potential Mac Pro if the performance is ok. In addition I'm running single and dual 4090 setups and RTX8000 + A100s (in servers).

Second, how is it my example? Someone posted about a $759. You complained about the price and mentioned that the RAM and SSD is missing and referenced the Mac Mini. I told you you can't make the comparison. The performance of that $759 computer + RAM + SSD is comparable to a Max SoC and not the regular non-Max SoC found in the Mac mini. So in order to compare these performance wise, you'd need to make the step up to a Studio with Max, which is the Studio.

If you want to stick to a Mac mini for the comparison, then you can't use the "expensive" $759 computer as an example but rather something that is much cheaper.

You're a perfect example of why us normal Mac users are hated so much. See this for a reference: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/is-myst-still-one-of-the-worst-games-ever

Discussion is over.
 

okkibs

macrumors 65816
Sep 17, 2022
1,070
1,005
>In 3 years, 50% of all computers capable of playing AAA games will be Macs

That take aged well.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
You don't lead a market by profit, let's not have this nonsense discussion, which has been discussed before, yet people with their head in the sand still don't get it.
There were years in which Apple made even more than 100% of the entire profit in the smartphone market, because Android manufacturers on average were losing money. This is how they earned a fortune to invest in their own chip design, the one which dethroned Intel and send the entire PC industry into contraction.
Check the market share for hardware and OS's used.
So profit share means nothing, because look market share?
Personally I'd rather have Apple's profits than Dell's market.😏
I regularly buy them and rent in cloud centers. ... We've used ARM long before Apple made the switch.
No, you didn't. Apple was one of three companies who founded ARM and even insisted on the name change from Acorn! Whatever you do with computers, Apple did it first. They are not the largest tech company in history of mankind, because they came late to the revolution.

Wikipedia: ARM (company) #History
I will happily buy a potential Mac Pro if the performance is ok. In addition I'm running single and dual 4090 setups and RTX8000 + A100s (in servers).
Nobody asked.
Second, how is it my example? Someone posted about a $759. You complained about the price and mentioned that the RAM and SSD is missing and referenced the Mac Mini.
I referenced that a computer won't even boot without RAM and it also couldn't come with Windows 11 preinstalled, if there was no drive in it.
I told you you can't make the comparison. The performance of that $759 computer + RAM + SSD is comparable to a Max SoC and not the regular non-Max SoC found in the Mac mini.
I'm sure those ads in the Start menu will show up in no time, but how do you even compare this ugly mess with macOS. You'd need a completely artificial benchmark to conclude that Windows is better on something.
So in order to compare these performance wise, you'd need to make the step up to a Studio with Max, which is the Studio.
No I don't. I compare your dual 4090 and RTX8000 (whatever that is) with an M1/8GB/256GB and you already lost, because you don't have a 4K display, a magic mouse, a keyboard with touchID, low energy consumption, silent operation, awesome speakers and the wrong color aluminium.
If you want to stick to a Mac mini for the comparison, then you can't use the "expensive" $759 computer as an example but rather something that is much cheaper.
Personally I think the Mac mini is useless without a display and Apple doesn't produce one that's cheap enough and third-party monitors aren't good enough with less than 218ppi.
You're a perfect example of why us normal Mac users are hated so much. See this for a reference: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/is-myst-still-one-of-the-worst-games-ever
Discussion is over.
I bought my first Mac in 2009 and I never played Myst in the 1990s. Whatever your idea of a typical "hated" Mac user is, it's not me. I'm more like a convert, who recently switched from Christianity to Islam or vice versa and can't stop telling you what was so stupid about their old belief system.😇
 
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mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
11,298
It’s a fact that everybody knows that Linux sucks for gaming.

What would happen if Valve shuttered their doors tomorrow? Bye bye, Steam Deck!!

Linux is the second best alternative to Windows for gaming. Linux can play new titles, recent titles and old titles. In comparison, MacOS is a funeral home since it can't play majority of new titles, recent titles and old titles but usually only bottom tier titles. Just look at how empty the MacOS list is even including Crossover and Parallels paid subscriptions compared to Linux that doesn't require paid subscriptions. So, if Linux sucks relative to Windows then MacOS sucks a lot more relative to Linux.

Linux
https://www.protondb.com/explore?selectedFilters=whitelisted

MacOS
https://www.applegamingwiki.com/wiki/Home
 
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salamanderjuice

macrumors 6502a
Feb 28, 2020
580
613
$759

So that's the price without RAM, SSD, software and taxes?
And I thought the Mac mini was too expensive. 😂
At least you get a nice rectangular external power supply.
And yet once you configure it with 16GB RAM and a 512GB SSD it's $140 cheaper than an equivalent Mac Mini...

That model has a discrete Radeon 6600M GPU too. You can get one without it with 32GB RAM and a 512GB SSD for $730.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
And yet once you configure it with 16GB RAM and a 512GB SSD it's $140 cheaper than an equivalent Mac Mini...
Why would two computers with the same size of RAM and SSD be in any way equivalent? The Mac mini is an overpriced useless lump of metal, because you can't possible find a decent affordable monitor for it. Windows however doesn't look any worse on a 27-inch 4K from LG. It's just everything else about this hideous black brick that's appalling. Why would I buy anything in 2023 that still has USB-A ports on it? 2015 wants its asymmetric port back!
That model has a discrete Radeon 6600M GPU too.
Why would I want to return to discrete graphics after M1 demonstrated what a blessing a SoC with unified memory can be? The way forward is M1 ➞ M2 ➞ M3 ➞ M4 ➞ M... Nobody is even slightly interested in this Radeon garbage. We're waiting for power-efficient ray tracing to be implemented into mobile CPUs. The rumors go as far back as 2014.

Future iPhones May Offer More Realistic Lighting and Shadows with New Ray-Tracing GPU

Some day Apple will pull the rabbit out of the hat and iPhone, iPad and Mac will all gain way more graphics power out of the box. Games developed for Apple Silicon will scale from 1.6" Apple Watch to 32" Pro Display XDR and always show the optimal amount of details without any settings by the user.
You can get one without it with 32GB RAM and a 512GB SSD for $730.
But why? It's still crippled by all the same problems of the Windows platform. I'm grateful I escaped this garbage town. I don't want to return. After Windows 7 had fixed the Vista disaster, the announcement of "Metro" UI for Windows 8 convinced me to say, enough already. I don't want anything to do with you any more! No RTX 9999Z will convince me otherwise. You can not overcome this mess with hardware. It is philosophically a failed system. Soon enough GPUs will be larger than their PCs and swim in liquid nitrogen tanks to be properly cooled. All in the name of triple-A gaming. I hope Microsoft's $68.7B Activision acquisition goes through, this will be such an unmitigated disaster.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
macOS wants to run on a Retina monitor with 218ppi. A standard 4K 27-inch monitor has 163ppi which requires downscaling and generates weird artefacts. Basically Apple's OS works best with Apple's Displays, which are darn expensive. Better to buy a Mac with a built-in display and avoid Macs with standalone displays.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
I guess it means we can scratch the Mini off the list of gaming capable Macs then. 😂
No, you can strike it from the list of cheap Macs. The first Apple One was sold only as a circuit board, early users were supposed to build the rest of the computer themselves. From then on Steve Jobs knew, the Apple II had to come with a casing and a beautiful one. But till today some people insist on buying a computer without its monitor. That's like selling a car without a dashboard. Makes no sense whatsoever.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,127
2,707
But till today some people insist on buying a computer without its monitor. That's like selling a car without a dashboard. Makes no sense whatsoever.
You better tell Apple, especially considering the next Mac Pro won't have a monitor either.:oops:
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
You better tell Apple, especially considering the next Mac Pro won't have a monitor either.
I'm sure they don't mind that the computer looks a lot cheaper than the whole package actually is. At least you can perfectly use an iPad Pro without Apple Pencil and Magic Keyboard. They are actual accessories. But a Mac mini without display, keyboard and mouse? It's just a lump of metal and not cheap at all. This is also a reason why most people prefer laptops over desktops. The All-in-One Macintosh and later iMac are something else indeed. And cheaper than what some people pay for a graphics card. To deliver a computer with all the things you need to use it, what a revolutionary idea! Just like some anno 1995 Multimedia-PC.
 
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