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Gudi

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So this was a fail prediction, right?
Regarding the Microsoft-Activision merger, yes! Mac Pro and Mac Studio are already expensive enough that you can throw in a Studio Display and not move the needle. But a Mac mini plus Studio Display is a horrible deal in my opinion, albeit a good looking setup.


EDIT: People who bought the Mini, because it was supposed to be "Apple's cheapest Mac" don't usually pair it with their own custom built desk. Most Minis end up in makeshift setups with ugly third-party speakers and poor cable management, whereas most iMac setups actually look very good.
 
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GrumpyCoder

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I'm sure they don't mind that the computer looks a lot cheaper than the whole package actually is. At least you can perfectly use an iPad Pro without Apple Pencil and Magic Keyboard. They are actual accessories. But a Mac mini without display, keyboard and mouse? It's just a lump of metal and not cheap at all. This is also a reason why most people prefer laptops over desktops. The All-in-One Macintosh and later iMac are something else indeed. And cheaper than what some people pay for a graphics card. To deliver a computer with all the things you need to use it, what a revolutionary idea! Just like some anno 1995 Multimedia-PC.
You must explain this to Apple. I’m sure they’ll reason and fix the situation right away. But we have much bigger problems now. Since we successfully determined that Macs that scale are utter garbage and completely useless, we have to deal with Metal 3 and MetalFX which scales as well. As a result, all Mac games utilizing it suck as well. I’ll call someone at Apple right away and explain why WWDC needs to be canceled immediately. 🧐
 

Gudi

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You must explain this to Apple. I’m sure they’ll reason and fix the situation right away.
There is nothing to fix. Apple's job as a company is to maximize profits, that includes upselling and even outright luxury products. Not every variant of every model must be geared towards the needs of value shoppers. In a rampant capitalist society (I'm looking at you, America) a lot of wealth is concentrated in the hands of the rich and famous. Apple would make a grave mistake, if they didn't offer something to them. But unlike in the times of "le Roi Soleil" Louis XIV. not everyone is a nobleman. So you also need to offer the computer "for the rest of us" ™ and you need to differentiate the two, so that the aristocrat understands why he payed trice as much. And yes, the rich folks get tricked into paying way too much for RAM upgrades.

But guess what, PC buyers get tricked too. They live under the illusion that only because they can pick and choose as they please, they'll end up with a cheaper computer. But instead they suffer from ever single component manufacturer playing the upselling game with them over and over again. The sheer amount of marketing terms they get pushed into their heads is staggering. See, I have a green mid-tier iMac, these three words tell you everything about my machine. I don't even need to say, it's a 24-inch, because all green iMacs are. So there clearly isn't much choice. But as a PC buyer you pay for every X in the name of your motherboard and every 9 in the model number of your GPU. For merely the hope of a few more frames per second.

But wait, first here is some ad in your Start menu. Oh no, your triple-A game is now full of loot boxes and micropayments! I hope you didn't pay in advance for the season pass? Never-mind, it's all subscription based now anyway. But at least Logitech found yet another place to put more buttons on their next gaming mouse. I think I'll need to upgrade soon.
I’ll call someone at Apple right away and explain why WWDC needs to be canceled immediately. 🧐
Please do that. I'm sure they already have a system in place on how to deal with such calls.
 

Colstan

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But guess what, PC buyers get tricked too. They live under the illusion that only because they can pick and choose as they please, they'll end up with a cheaper computer. But instead they suffer from ever single component manufacturer playing the upselling game with them over and over again. The sheer amount of marketing terms they get pushed into their heads is staggering. See, I have a green mid-tier iMac, these three words tell you everything about my machine. I don't even need to say, it's a 24-inch, because all green iMacs are. So there clearly isn't much choice. But as a PC buyer you pay for every X in the name of your motherboard and every 9 in the model number of your GPU. For merely the hope of a few more frames per second.
I've been whimsically kicking around the idea of building a gaming PC, versus staying with Apple's offerings, since my 2018 Mac mini + eGPU combo is quickly aging out. That's both for general use and gaming, plus many new titles are Apple Silicon exclusive.

My next Mac would likely be an M(x) Pro Mac mini, which is typically $1,200 USD on sale, give or take a few shekels. This would be the economical option, because I know I'd overspend on a PC. I've already got a sufficient ~220ppi display for Mac, but would want one of the fancy OLEDs for gaming. Nvidia's stinginess with VRAM and AMD's lack of new mid-range models would make upsell on graphics cards tempting. Plus, we've got the delightfully fast (but explosive) 3D V-cache CPUs from AMD.

I realize that these are different tools for different markets, but my point is that price conscious buyers don't really have many good options beyond 1080p gaming with a PC, where the game will look like mud because of lack of VRAM. If you want to game on a PC with reasonable quality, playing games released this year, then that's a substantial investment.

A Mac is an expensive device, a gaming PC is an expensive hobby, but cost shouldn't be the motivating factor, between the two.
 
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salamanderjuice

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I've been whimsically kicking around the idea of building a gaming PC, versus staying with Apple's offerings, since my 2018 Mac mini + eGPU combo is quickly aging out. That's both for general use and gaming, plus many new titles are Apple Silicon exclusive.

My next Mac would likely be an M(x) Pro Mac mini, which is typically $1,200 USD on sale, give or take a few shekels. This would be the economical option, because I know I'd overspend on a PC. I've already got a sufficient ~220ppi display for Mac, but would want one of the fancy OLEDs for gaming. Nvidia's stinginess with VRAM and AMD's lack of new mid-range models would make upsell on graphics cards tempting. Plus, we've got the delightfully fast (but explosive) 3D V-cache CPUs from AMD.

I realize that these are different tools for different markets, but my point is that price conscious buyers don't really have many good options beyond 1080p gaming with a PC, where the game will look like mud because of lack of VRAM. If you want to game on a PC with reasonable quality, playing games released this year, then that's a substantial investment.

A Mac is an expensive device, a gaming PC is an expensive hobby, but cost shouldn't be the motivating factor, between the two.
You can get a 16GB Intel Arc A770 for $350 right now. Nvidia just announced a 16GB 4060 Ti for $500 and there's rumors a buzzing about the mid-range Radeons on the horizon with older 6800s competitively priced too.

FWIW most of my PC gaming is done on Steam Deck which can be had for $400. No it won't do 4K or even 1080p in newer titles but it's hella convenient and usurped my Switch in gaming until TOTK released.

$1200 should be able to get you a good 1440p machine at least, PC game optimization problems aside...
 

nasmdhgf

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Jan 23, 2023
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Macs were already better computers when both ran on the same silicon. There was nothing to surpass, Windows was never leading on quality only quantity. And that's computer history with the advent of iOS.
That's why I said you can celebrate victory verbally, but in fact, the market for Mac is very small,
Many people do not choose mobile office work, they stay at home for production, including many art professionals, programmers, video editors.
The instruction set functionality of the arm chip is also inferior to that of desktop computers (PCs), with weak single core speed and poor gaming performance. It can only develop multi-core, low power consumption, and small size, and promote these advantages.
If Apple's ARM computer is really strong, everyone should buy it, not just Mac fans. If it is really strong, there won't be so many customers choosing a PC, but they are not game users. In terms of office capabilities, PCs are also more powerful. In addition to making games, I also use video and other graphics processing software, and it is obvious that PC processing speed is very fast.
 

Colstan

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You can get a 16GB Intel Arc A770 for $350 right now. Nvidia just announced a 16GB 4060 Ti for $500 and there's rumors a buzzing about the mid-range Radeons on the horizon with older 6800s competitively priced too.
I was speaking about the newest models, for those who want a current generation GPU. Battlemage should be interesting, if Intel can keep developing their drivers, assuming Gelsinger doesn't pull the plug. The 4060 Ti 16GB is a bad value with the 4070 for just $100 more, VRAM aside. I think this generation is cursed, but I question if the next is going to be any better.

FWIW most of my PC gaming is done on Steam Deck which can be had for $400. No it won't do 4K or even 1080p in newer titles but it's hella convenient and usurped my Switch in gaming until TOTK released.
As a hobby, I was addressing PC vs. Mac. I prefer keyboard/mouse input and the ability to control the file system for mods and such. Hence, if my only option were a console, then I would no longer be a gamer. Obviously, consoles are perfectly fine for many folks, it's just not for me.

$1200 should be able to get you a good 1440p machine at least, PC game optimization problems aside...
I was addressing @Gudi's temptation for upsell. Nvidia has been particularly good at getting gamers to upgrade each generation by limiting VRAM on mid-range models. It's been the latest hullabaloo among the PCMR cadre, on forums and comment sections. If they don't like it, then they should stop handing their cabbage to Nvidia. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
 

salamanderjuice

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I was speaking about the newest models, for those who want a current generation GPU. Battlemage should be interesting, if Intel can keep developing their drivers, assuming Gelsinger doesn't pull the plug. The 4060 Ti 16GB is a bad value with the 4070 for just $100 more, VRAM aside. I think this generation is cursed, but I question if the next is going to be any better.


As a hobby, I was addressing PC vs. Mac. I prefer keyboard/mouse input and the ability to control the file system for mods and such. Hence, if my only option were a console, then I would no longer be a gamer. Obviously, consoles are perfectly fine for many folks, it's just not for me.


I was addressing @Gudi's temptation for upsell. Nvidia has been particularly good at getting gamers to upgrade each generation by limiting VRAM on mid-range models. It's been the latest hullabaloo among the PCMR cadre, on forums and comment sections. If they don't like it, then they should stop handing their cabbage to Nvidia. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
The A770 came out the same month as the RTX 4090. The older Radeons are still good value only really losing in ray tracing performance. And it's not like AMD has anything like DLSS3 dependent on the latest Gen.

Steam Deck isn't a console either. It's a handheld PC with a nice controller optimized UI and features. You can hook up a keyboard and mouse, you can access the file system, install mods, type up a document, install emulators, Windows, whatever. My point there was you don't have to spend huge to get an enjoyable PC gaming experience.
 

Colstan

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The A770 came out the same month as the RTX 4090. The older Radeons are still good value only really losing in ray tracing performance. And it's not like AMD has anything like DLSS3 dependent on the latest Gen.
I think that Intel's GPUs are a work in progress. They're getting there, but not yet, in my opinion. While I understand that older Radeons are a reasonably good value, compared to what is available, I don't think consumers should be expected to purchase three year-old cards while Nvidia and AMD dump inventory. This generation is simply bad.

Steam Deck isn't a console either.
We're arguing semantics, at this point. I'm a traditional desktop user, I've always been a traditional desktop user, and always will be a traditional desktop user. I'm not switching to a laptop, let alone a handheld, but as I said, that's my personal preference.

My point there was you don't have to spend huge to get an enjoyable PC gaming experience.
I disagree. Between economic inflationary pressures, plus the substantial uptick in graphics card prices, PC gaming is a luxury hobby. It always has been, just more so now. Value depends upon the individual's preference and wallet, but I don't see PC gaming as a value niche. As has been pointed out, that's the realm of the consoles.
 

dmccloud

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This is exactly why I'm done with gaming on Mac. In the end you can run Diablo III and some 64-bit steam games but would I waste disk space just to have Mojave and never use it?

Also I highly doubt that 50% of all Gamers will switch to Mac.
Newer Macs are still way more expensive than a capable Intel/AMD machine, you can just run any game - no emulation required.

Any cheap Ryzen with a Vega APU can run AAA titles to some extent.

That "cheap Ryzen with a Vega APU" will likely run that AAA title very poorly - low framerates, both visual and input lag, etc. There is a reason very few AAA titles list any sort of integrated graphics solutions as "minimum" specs. If you are a PC gamer and you want solid, RELIABLE performance, you're going to either be paying Mac-like prices for either a prebuilt gaming PC or a custom-built PC.
 
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dmccloud

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Yes, comparison lacks though. Would be better compared to a Studio with Max SoC, so you're looking at a $2k entry price vs $759 + RAM + SSD. Still wouldn't buy it though, I'd get a "proper" case.

That model also uses AMD's laptop SKUs, not desktop variants, so lower power consumption and lower performance at similar clock speeds to their desktop counterparts...
 

GrumpyCoder

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Nov 15, 2016
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If you are a PC gamer and you want solid, RELIABLE performance, you're going to either be paying Mac-like prices for either a prebuilt gaming PC or a custom-built PC.
Wait, wait. You guys are confusing me. I thought PCs are never reliable and total garbage? So which one is it now? :confused:

That model also uses AMD's laptop SKUs, not desktop variants, so lower power consumption and lower performance at similar clock speeds to their desktop counterparts...
And yet, putting these systems side by side with the same games, gives a pretty good idea of what has similar performance.
 

dmccloud

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Wait, wait. You guys are confusing me. I thought PCs are never reliable and total garbage? So which one is it now? :confused:


And yet, putting these systems side by side with the same games, gives a pretty good idea of what has similar performance.

Gaming performance requires higher-end components, which are usually NOT in the cheaper PCs that litter the aisles of Best Buy, Walmart, etc. There is a reason many gamers either order systems from a reputable system builder such as Doghouse Systems or Digital Storm (to name a couple), or build a system themselves - it's because the preconfigured options from HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. almost always cut corners somewhere to fit a predetermined price point. On the laptop side, there are even more compromises, because in order to build a laptop with comparable performance to a desktop, you have to make the machine massive just to accommodate sufficient cooling for the CPU and GPU (look at a 17" Alienware compared to a 17" MSI or ASUS gaming laptop and you'll see that the choice often comes down to smaller size & weight or better overall performance).
 

Gudi

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If Apple's ARM computer is really strong, everyone should buy it, not just Mac fans.
You underestimate platform lock-in and inertia, even for an awful platform like Windows. It turned out to be much easier to build up iOS from scratch and become the most profitable company in the world than winning back the PC market. It’s been called a WINTEL monopoly for a reason. You don’t just win market share only because you offer a superior product. For every switcher there are millions of people in the world who buy their first ever computer and of course pick the safe choice of the market (share) leader.
If it is really strong, there won't be so many customers choosing a PC, but they are not game users.
View it the other way around. If PCs are indeed more performant, and offer way more software and hardware choices at a lower price, how come Apple isn’t bankrupt already? Shouldn’t everyone switch over to team Win? If you dominate both the business and the gaming market, what is there even left to conquer?
In terms of office capabilities, PCs are also more powerful. In addition to making games, I also use video and other graphics processing software, and it is obvious that PC processing speed is very fast.
It’s obvious that even garbage computers get faster every year and create the illusion of progress and development. Some of the most annoying bugs even get fixed to make room for new ones. What doesn’t change is the underlying philosophy a platform was build upon. You’ll always feel the intend the Macintosh was created with. And you’ll always suffer the consequences of the decision to license out Windows to any hardware manufacturer.

You are what you became over the years. Otherwise it would be much easier for Intel and Microsoft to leverage their PC dominance to gain a fighting chance in the all important Smartphone market, in which they are utter and completely irrelevant.
 

Romain_H

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Sep 20, 2021
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You underestimate platform lock-in and inertia, even for an awful platform like Windows. It turned out to be much easier to build up iOS from scratch and become the most profitable company in the world than winning back the PC market. It’s been called a WINTEL monopoly for a reason. You don’t just win market share only because you offer a superior product.
That may be true.

Alas, Apple isn't even trying to increase their share, at least not particularly hard. Not sure if that is a good thing - tbh, sometimes I wished they did.
 

Gudi

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That may be true.
At the time of the Brother's Wright everyone with a bicycle repair shop could enter aircraft or even car manufacturing. But as the market matured it became impossible to compete with the Boeing-Airbus duopoly. Even as the Cseries became a success, Bombardier still lost its independence. It's an impossible competition! The 737 MAX can even fall from the sky (twice) and yet Boeing stays a leading aircraft manufacturer.

Microsoft is in a similar position, in which they can't possibly lose their market dominance for as long as people still buy PCs. Just like IBM dominated mainframes and probably still dominates them. You only stopped thinking about IBM, because you stopped thinking about mainframes altogether.
Alas, Apple isn't even trying to increase their share, at least not particularly hard. Not sure if that is a good thing - tbh, sometimes I wished they did.
Oh they did try, as hard as humanly possible! 😂


And yet I only even recognised the existence of the Mac after owning two iPods and desperately wanting an iPhone. You only ever learn to want a Mac by using a Mac. And you don't get to use a Mac by accident, when their market share was below 3%. I knew absolutely nobody who had ever owned a Mac when I bought my first one.

Market share of the leading operating system editions in Germany from 2009 to 2023
 
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Colstan

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And yet I only even recognised the existence of the Mac after owning two iPods and desperately wanting an iPhone. You only ever learn to want a Mac by using a Mac. And you don't get to use a Mac by accident, when their market share was below 3%. I knew absolutely nobody who had ever owned a Mac when I bought my first one.
Ain't that the truth. Much like the PC partisans of today, I saw Macs as nothing more than toys or art pieces. Steve Jobs announced the switch to Intel, I put OS X on my PC, back in the day, before the term "hackintosh" had been coined. I had been a Windows user previously, never particularly cared for it, just put up with it. I actually enjoyed using OS X. A few months later I had switched to Mac, and am now on my fourth Mac mini, perhaps looking for a fifth in the future.
 
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Gudi

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You are aware that these ads aren't exactly the latest in Apple Marketing?
These ads came at a time when Apple still tried to compete directly with Microsoft on the basis of Mac vs PC feature comparisons and they aired only in the US with little effect on global market share. As it turns out, it is quite hard to convince somebody, who just bought a new PC and is frustrated with Vista, to throw away their shiny new piece of tech and buy yet another expensive computer with a slightly nicer learning curve. But then Apple discovered that by heavily marketing iPods to everyone (including Windows users), they could introduce themselves much easier to a new group of potential customers. This was called the "Halo effect" and became Apple's official Mac marketing strategy. That's why Microsoft released the Zune and banned white headphones on their campus. To this day new products are the best way to grow the entire ecosystem.

Analysis: Halo effect moves from iPod to iPhone
“The iPhone began to introduce Apple to literally hundreds of millions of people,” Cook said. “Some that bought it, some that didn’t, others that desired it. But it introduced our brand to people who had never met Apple before.”

I myself bought and returned a no-name mp3 player with unusably small buttons and a horrible user interface. Instead I picked the iPod Shuffle (twice the price for half the storage™) with a nice big Play/Pause button in the middle. The Shuffle came with an iTunes CD, which introduced me to free video podcast, which is why I eventually bought the iPod with Video to watch the Happy Tree Friends. This is how I stumbled upon the Apple Keynote videos and began to look at Macs. Only after seeing the glorious iPhone keynote, months before its release in the US, a full year before it came to Germany (locked on an insanely expensive contract to our pink carrier, which everyone hates with passion), multiple years before the unlocked iPhone 4 became a reasonable purchase, I became hooked on the Mac. And still only because the Euro was strong and we needed a new TV anyway, I convinced myself that the first 27-inch iMac of 2009 plus a TV stick was a justifiable purchase. And then the OS X Welcome video started.

 
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nasmdhgf

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You underestimate platform lock-in and inertia, even for an awful platform like Windows. It turned out to be much easier to build up iOS from scratch and become the most profitable company in the world than winning back the PC market. It’s been called a WINTEL monopoly for a reason. You don’t just win market share only because you offer a superior product. For every switcher there are millions of people in the world who buy their first ever computer and of course pick the safe choice of the market (share) leader.
Relying on the mobile phone market to win precisely illustrates the tragedy of Apple's computers, as they suffered a crushing defeat in the computer market. Apple's closed ecological environment is destined to not have any better improvement, including gaming, which is really too bad.
View it the other way around. If PCs are indeed more performant, and offer way more software and hardware choices at a lower price, how come Apple isn’t bankrupt already? Shouldn’t everyone switch over to team Win? If you dominate both the business and the gaming market, what is there even left to conquer?
The absence of bankruptcy cannot prove the failure of a company.
You are what you became over the years. Otherwise it would be much easier for Intel and Microsoft to leverage their PC dominance to gain a fighting chance in the all important Smartphone market, in which they are utter and completely irrelevant.
Relying solely on mobile phones, they cannot defeat anyone because many excellent software and games are not dominated by IOS. You can celebrate that mobile games can make money, but it does not mean that they can dominate the computer market. It is obvious that you are distorting the direction of the topic. This is the Mac forum, not the iOS forum, and everyone is not discussing iOS games. In our country, mobile games have also declined. They are outdated because their content remains unchanged, with more tasks and poor random draws. They are just things that capitalists make money or cheat, and will soon be squeezed out by powerful 3A games and independent games on PC platforms.
 

Romain_H

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Sep 20, 2021
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These ads came at a time when Apple still tried to compete directly with Microsoft on (...)
Correct. About 20 years ago.

These days Apple seems to happily sit in their niche, not even trying to win back market share. Lately, they seem to have left the higher desktop/HPC market
 

Gudi

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These days Apple seems to happily sit in their niche, not even trying to win back market share. Lately, they seem to have left the higher desktop/HPC market.
Bildschirmfoto 2023-05-21 um 13.09.46.png

Mac market share (in Germany) grew by +500% after they "stopped" competing directly with Windows and relied on innovations from iOS trickle down 'Back to the Mac™. Everybody loves their Apple Silicon Macs. So much so, that they can't see a reason to upgrade from M1 anytime soon.

 
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Romain_H

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Sep 20, 2021
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Everybody loves their Apple Silicon Macs. So much so, that they can't see a reason to upgrade from M1 anytime soon.
I do, too. On the laptop. Desktop is Linux all the way, there isn't even an Apple product for lots applications any more
 

Gudi

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I do, too. On the laptop. Desktop is Linux all the way, there isn't even an Apple product for lots applications any more.
This either refers to the large-screen professional iMac (which I believe will come very soon and be awesome) or the Mac Pro with slots for third-party graphics cards (which is even confirmed to be in the making by official keynote statement). We don't need Apple to put an RTX 4090 into a nicer box. There is little room for Apple to innovate and contribute to Nvidia's technology. Run CUDA on a PC, if you can't wait for the Mac Pro. What can be done by Apple themselves is to push for 3nm and add ray tracing support to Apple Silicon, both is heavily rumoured on this site.
 
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