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TiggrToo

macrumors 601
Aug 24, 2017
4,205
8,838
Most Mac users don’t need Windows compatibility. And the M1 series chips are impressive. The MacBook Air and iMac effectively got price cuts since there are no processor variants. $999 is the price of entry and it’s just RAM and SSD options. Everyone gets the same speedy processor.

It’s a different story for the 14”/16” MacBook Pro and Mac Studio but even there the entry level models are very compelling propositions for many buyers.

I even quit using Windows with Parallels on my Intel MBP. Most of my needs now are being met with Docker and as more and more containers have an ARM image, I’m finding my M1 Air to be even better than my 2019 MBP.

So yeah, even the Air is a beast compared to what came before it.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
Interestingly sales seem to be accelerating since they ditched Intel and Windows compatibility. Their strategy is working once again.
New hardware always accelerates purchases. We'll just have to see over the long haul whether it's a general trend or not.
 

FreedomPenguin

Suspended
Aug 18, 2021
224
166
To sell more Macs to people like me. You may not think it's important, but it is to some.

As for "undermine everything Apple stands for." Apple stands for making profit, nothing else. (as is the goal of every corporation)
People like me don’t want people like you on our devices. Imo. People who don’t appreciate apple stuff running apple stuff should stop asking them to become something else
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
People like me don’t want people like you on our devices. Imo. People who don’t appreciate apple stuff running apple stuff should stop asking them to become something else
Even though I'm the guy that makes the decisions on purchasing many PC's? Wow, so exclusive a club. LOL!
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
I recognize that: isn't it Excuse #12 from the "How to constantly attack all things Apple" book?
I know of no book like that. I wouldn't even have owned Macs if that's all I wanted to do.

2 years does not a trend make, we'll only know in the future if it's a general trend. There's already been so much disruption in the supply chain and market the last couple of years that there are definitely market distortions that wouldn't be there otherwise. I happen to think Macs will keep increasing to a point and then level off again. They'll have to address other markets to get past that next peak, and Intel's already got enough of a market share that that's not going to go away quickly. Probably decades..

And lastly, I have no desire to see the Mac fail, choice is good, single provider is bad, period. Me complaining about some aspect of a product means I care enough about it to want it to get better. And believe me, I've complained about a lot of computer topics! Me not saying anything means I couldn't care less what happens. I've been working with computers for 50 years, it's what I do and have always done, but I'm not the sycophant type for any particular thing.
 

robco74

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
509
944
If you're waiting for Apple to "wake up" to their "mistake" in switching to their own silicon, get comfortable. Instead of leaving Apple to their silliness, other chip vendors plan on getting in on the action. OEMs will likely start making more Arm-based machines once those new chips are ready. Lenovo is already dipping a toe in the water with the upcoming X13s. The efficiency benefits are simply too great to ignore.

Intel was not always the performance champ. Back in the day, "serious" users scoffed at x86. That has changed. Intel and x86 will be around for some time, but it is not up to Apple to provide life support.
 

satcomer

Suspended
Feb 19, 2008
9,115
1,977
The Finger Lakes Region
The real quest why hasn't developers are still output Intel only software looks like Noobs now! They can't bother to recompile them Universal! The bas Mac mini could be used to recompile your application is less then a day!
 
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Colstan

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2020
330
711
I know of no book like that. I wouldn't even have owned Macs if that's all I wanted to do.
I'm going to take a stab at this. You seem like a reasonable person, Bob. I don't think you are a troll or tossing grenades around. You have a perfectly valid point of view, which I have sympathy for. I still use an Intel Mac mini as my daily machine and have used Boot Camp to play an occasional Windows game. I have argued in this thread, as have many others, that there are numerous reasons why Windows compatibility, in the form that you and others desire, isn't going to be coming back. Given the history of the Mac, the Intel era was an oddball period, but now the Mac is headed back onto its own proprietary island, using the vertical integration strategy that Steve Jobs could have only dreamed of for the Mac, back in the day.

I have never dismissed the concerns of folks like you, in fact, I'd love to be proven wrong and see Boot Camp return to the Mac, but I'm realistic enough to know that's not going to happen. Having read your posts for months now, I don't think you are an unrealistic person either, which is why I admit I am confused. It may be cathartic to express your displeasure on the MacRumors forum. However, I'm not sure what you have to gain from it long-term. Being frustrated and upset is perfectly fine, but that's not going to improve your situation going forward.

I am simply trying to address the situation in a polite fashion, and I hope I have succeeded. Regardless, I wish you well in your future computing endeavors.
 

BigMcGuire

Cancelled
Jan 10, 2012
9,832
14,032
I even quit using Windows with Parallels on my Intel MBP. Most of my needs now are being met with Docker and as more and more containers have an ARM image, I’m finding my M1 Air to be even better than my 2019 MBP.

So yeah, even the Air is a beast compared to what came before it.
Looks like I need to figure this out. I’ve never used Docker but I know a lot of people who do. I use Parallels for VS 2022 and for MS Project. I need to sit down and figure Docker out. :p. I’m guessing Docker is like Crossover but for a more business focus.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
Having read your posts for months now, I don't think you are an unrealistic person either, which is why I admit I am confused. It may be cathartic to express your displeasure on the MacRumors forum. However, I'm not sure what you have to gain from it long-term.
I don't expect to gain anything, but there is an off chance that the right person will read something on the right day, and it will actually change something in the future. Who knows.

Staying quite and not complaining is the way to set things in stone.
 
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TiggrToo

macrumors 601
Aug 24, 2017
4,205
8,838
Looks like I need to figure this out. I’ve never used Docker but I know a lot of people who do. I use Parallels for VS 2022 and for MS Project. I need to sit down and figure Docker out. :p. I’m guessing Docker is like Crossover but for a more business focus.

Docker is for a single or multiple interconnected services. Think like MySql in a box: Normally you’d install MySql on a host and have it running locally on that host. With Docker you run a container that runs MySql - making it pretty much isolated from the host (unless you’ve configured local volumes).

Then you can get to interconnected containers where let’s say you need to run a website with a MySql backend. You can create two containers at the same time and only allow the front end to talk to the MySql DB.

Then you can go for a Swarm when you can scale containers out across multiple docker hosts.

And then finally Kubernetes where you can orchestrate all that and have scale up\scale down all working automagically.
 

HenrikWivel

macrumors member
Nov 2, 2016
70
176
Just to be a bit technical, Windows 3.1 didn't run in an emulator, it was much closer to virtualized. Not HW virtualized of course, but since Windows 3.1 and OS/2 ran on the same processor. What it really was was a real Windows 3.1 running on top of a DOS shell, on top of OS/2. Them were the days... :)

I really liked PS/2 hardware, so much more advanced than what passed for a computer in DOS days.
You are right. To be a bit more technical, I seem to remember that the 80286 made it possible to instantiate virtual, sandboxes cpu instances in hardware. So when you started your DOS/Windows, OS/2 actually booted an virtual instance i hardware for it to run on.

Loved both the PS/2 hardware and OS/2. Developing for OS/2 was sooo much easier than for windows.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Also, Qualcomm doesn't yet have an ARM chip that is remotely competitive with the M1, much less the M1 Pro/Max/Ultra. Microsoft puts its own name on the Surface Pro X. It would be somewhat embarrassing for them for the fastest supported PCs running Windows on ARM to be Macs.

If Apple continues to not write Apple GPU drivers for other operating systems then M1 series won't be the "fastest supported PCs running Windows". A fastest Windows PC is more than running some CPU only tech porn CPU only drag racing benchmark.

Qualcomm's 8cx Gen 3 is going to be competitive as a Windows CPU with the M1. The M1 has no GPU drivers with DirectX 12 optimizations. No NPU drivers or support in Windows ML/AI processing. No support required Windows 11 boot security. Qualcomm has all those things working. And to folks who need to run Windows apps it will be competitive.

Windows 11 in a VM running a emulated GPU on M1 isn't going to be as competitive as naitve macOS GPU on native Apple GPU with native native drivers. Running Word and Excel will wor well. Running an app that make major use of DirectX12 ultimate ... probably not.

Microsoft does not need Apple. "betting" the Windows 11 on Arm 'foram' on Apple Silicon would be ginormous blunder.

Ultra desktop versus a Windows box with slots outfitted with 2-3 top of the line, 2022-era AMD/Nvidia GPUs for "fastest performance desktop" with Windows , doubtful that Microsoft is quaking in their boots at that either. Windows hasn't painted themselves into a corner where have to toss out top end x86_64 CPUs. Qualcomm doesn't "have to" cover that segment.
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
To be a bit more technical, I seem to remember that the 80286 made it possible to instantiate virtual, sandboxes cpu instances in hardware. So when you started your DOS/Windows, OS/2 actually booted an virtual instance i hardware for it to run on.
That I don't know for sure, but it may be the the difference between real mode and protected mode. That sounds like it's kind of similar to a virtual instance. I don't remember if OS/2 ran totally in protected mode though. It's been a long time since I used OS/2!
 

WildstarBR2020

macrumors 6502
May 7, 2020
344
335
To sell more Macs to people like me. You may not think it's important, but it is to some.

As for "undermine everything Apple stands for." Apple stands for making profit, nothing else. (as is the goal of every corporation)
But if you are a windows user… what are you doing here?
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
But if you are a windows user… what are you doing here?
Because I don't just use Windows. I have two active Mac's at home, and more in the bone pile... An Intel Mac Mini, and an M1 Studio Max. The studio is my main computer at home, though I have Windows machines active too.

I'm just not the type that only runs one kind of computer/OS.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
I think your post is mixing/confusing bootcamp with the emulator. Apple said clearly they are ready to support Bootcamp of Windows on Arm. And to be honest I don't think that would require more resources than Intel Bootcamp. The bulk of the work is on Microsoft to adapt Windows on Arm to Apple Silicon, not Apple.

Errr, no. As the CPU and GPU component vendor Apple would be required to submit to Microsoft firmware/boot/driver support to the Windows team for those components. Apple isn't doing that. Apple would have to all the work that Intel/AMD/Nvidia commonly do for Windows. That was almost a 'punt' for the transition to x86. Intel did effectively all the work for iGPU support and the CPU work. AMD/NVidia add-in GPU cards had some EFI and Apple BIOS quirks to them that Apple (and GPU vendors) had to work out with Microsoft but post boot phase it is laregly the Windows work those 3rd party component vendors had already done for Windows that largely matter.

All Apple had to do for Windows bootcamp work is do drivers for Apple specific hardware ; which as a much smaller scope ( trackpads, monitors , etc. ) with much smaller driver stacks.


It is a lot of work that requires lots more open communication about underlying components that Apple is communicating. ( so more work in software (driver/firmware) , communcation ( documentation ) , and relationships ( more roadmap synching , joint support system communications channels , etc. )

Apple is largely punting. There is no technical support at the boot level. There are no CPU/GPU driver/firmware support for non macOS provided. ( VM's are all leveraging emulated GPUs). No kernel extensions for virtualizations ( in macOS required to use Apple's hypervisor/virtualization framework. )

So there is tons more work required for robust support. Apple just isn't sighing up for robust support. So yeah there is "same" work if 'punt' on all the additional responsibilities. Apple has scoped the work down to "as much or less".



P.S. Bootcamp had three major components to that general name umbrella

a. managing the partitioning for Windows ( MBR support (mirroring,etc.) , NTFS/FAT partitions , etc. )

b. boot support ( BIOS and relatively late in progression UEFI )

c. Windows Drivers ( drivers to support the Apple specific hardware (and semi-custom boot environment),

Apple is doing nothing on b. There is a technically unsupported system to optionaly drop in a 3rd party 'stub' that can do that, but Apple is doing nothing directly. c. As i pointed out above... there is more to cover now and Apple is doing less. As for partition mangement... conceptually you could wipe out the mac partitioons on a early intel mac and still have a working system . Now core boot system has mac elements to it (UEFI is effectively replaced by a stripped down 'recovery' macOS. )





What Apple is definitely never going to do is the Windows emulator suggested by the OP. This would require far more resources and might even fail to provide acceptable results.

Apple is going to punt the work to others. It is cheaper for apple to have other folks do this work.
But emulated GPUs... that is already being done (even back in the Intel VM era it is still a emulated GPU).
Apple did "take over" a subset of the VM machine work. All the VM vendors ( VMWare , Parallels , etc.) have to use Apple's hypervisor/virtualation framework. At least on macOS. And there is no technical support on "build your own from scratch".



As for Apple Silicon market share, they only moved from 8.1% to 8.9%, much less that what I was expecting.... I had predicted Apple Silicon to bring Macs solidly in the double digit market share in a couple of years, possibly doubling the market share to over 15%, or even get to 20%, and that doesn't seem to be happening at all.

Not going to happen. Generally Apple has used the shift to Apple Silicon to drive prices (or minimally at least margins ) on Macs higher. Higher prices aren't going to lead to massive market share gains. Apple doesn't want "Market share", they only want a subset of the profitable systems that don't require 'high touch' support overhead (and/or massive BTO SKUs ).

As Apple passes on inflation cost increases that will only get even more locked in.

Apple's share in relatively high disposable income USA is higher than their worldwide market. The problem will also be that the high income markets are highly saturated. Apple is getting a pretty decent uptick in churning their 100M mac base into upgrades, but once most of those folks have upgraded ... then what? What is happening is that are capturing folks that are moving at this time. But that isn't necessarily the same as vastly growing the user base. (especially if crank up recycling efforts. So fewer "hand me down" systems driven by new system sales. ).


I guess most M1 buyers were previous Mac owners, not so much Windows users....


AMD, Intel , Nvidia, etc aren't sitting still. IF look at those Gartner/IDC numbers Dell has gains. Lenovo and HP lost quareter over quarter 'share' . But if look at the unit numbers. Dell sold more new systems quarter over quarter than Apple did. Their percentage share increase is smaller than Apples only because they sell lots more than Apple in the first place.

Intel and AMD are in middle of transitioning to new line ups of mobile offerings. Once that is solid things should get incrementally better for Windows side. [ but inflation and economic uncertainity in many places in the worlds is drag a though. Plus folks have binged over last couple of years. boom-bust cycle. ]
 
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Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,643
4,469
Errr, no. As the CPU and GPU component vendor Apple would be required to submit to Microsoft firmware/boot/driver support to the Windows team for those components. Apple isn't doing that. Apple would have to all the work that Intel/AMD/Nvidia commonly do for Windows. That was almost a 'punt' for the transition to x86. Intel did effectively all the work for iGPU support and the CPU work. AMD/NVidia add-in GPU cards had some EFI and Apple BIOS quirks to them that Apple (and GPU vendors) had to work out with Microsoft but post boot phase it is laregly the Windows work those 3rd party component vendors had already done for Windows that largely matter.

All Apple had to do for Windows bootcamp work is do drivers for Apple specific hardware ; which as a much smaller scope ( trackpads, monitors , etc. ) with much smaller driver stacks.


It is a lot of work that requires lots more open communication about underlying components that Apple is communicating. ( so more work in software (driver/firmware) , communcation ( documentation ) , and relationships ( more roadmap synching , joint support system communications channels , etc. )

Apple is largely punting. There is no technical support at the boot level. There are no CPU/GPU driver/firmware support for non macOS provided. ( VM's are all leveraging emulated GPUs). No kernel extensions for virtualizations ( in macOS required to use Apple's hypervisor/virtualization framework. )

So there is tons more work required for robust support. Apple just isn't sighing up for robust support. So yeah there is "same" work if 'punt' on all the additional responsibilities. Apple has scoped the work down to "as much or less".



P.S. Bootcamp had three major components to that general name umbrella

a. managing the partitioning for Windows ( MBR support (mirroring,etc.) , NTFS/FAT partitions , etc. )

b. boot support ( BIOS and relatively late in progression UEFI )

c. Windows Drivers ( drivers to support the Apple specific hardware (and semi-custom boot environment),

Apple is doing nothing on b. There is a technically unsupported system to optionaly drop in a 3rd party 'stub' that can do that, but Apple is doing nothing directly. c. As i pointed out above... there is more to cover now and Apple is doing less. As for partition mangement... conceptually you could wipe out the mac partitioons on a early intel mac and still have a working system . Now core boot system has mac elements to it (UEFI is effectively replaced by a stripped down 'recovery' macOS. )







Apple is going to punt the work to others. It is cheaper for apple to have other folks do this work.
But emulated GPUs... that is already being done (even back in the Intel VM era it is still a emulated GPU).
Apple did "take over" a subset of the VM machine work. All the VM vendors ( VMWare , Parallels , etc.) have to use Apple's hypervisor/virtualation framework. At least on macOS. And there is no technical support on "build your own from scratch".





Not going to happen. Generally Apple has used the shift to Apple Silicon to drive prices (or minimally at least margins ) on Macs higher. Higher prices aren't going to lead to massive market share gains. Apple doesn't want "Market share", they only want a subset of the profitable systems that don't require 'high touch' support overhead (and/or massive BTO SKUs ).

As Apple passes on inflation cost increases that will only get even more locked in.

Apple's share in relatively high disposable income USA is higher than their worldwide market. The problem will also be that the high income markets are highly saturated. Apple is getting a pretty decent uptick in churning their 100M mac base into upgrades, but once most of those folks have upgraded ... then what? What is happening is that are capturing folks that are moving at this time. But that isn't necessarily the same as vastly growing the user base. (especially if crank up recycling efforts. So fewer "hand me down" systems driven by new system sales. ).
Concerning the first part. I completely disagree with your speculations, presented as facts.
If Apple was never going to be available to offer bootcamp they wouldn't have said it's really up to Microsoft, we have the technologies to make that happen. But again, lets agree to disagree.
Concerning the second part, I tend to agree and it's part of the conclusion I have come to over time. No matter how revolutionary Apple Silicon is, price is still a big barrier to market share... Another barrier is that many just don't want to use a Mac, for many reasons other that price (don't change what works, software compatibility, touch, pen etc.)
 

Gerdi

macrumors 6502
Apr 25, 2020
449
301
Raspberry PI uses a regular ARM CPU that follows the spec. Windows on ARM kernel is developed for the spec. But M1 does not follow the spec. That's the very point. Even if you provide a boot loader that emulates EFI and somehow get Windows kernel to boot it won't be able to do the basic stuff like handle hardware interrupts or send messages between the CPU cores. ACPI here or there, but Apple does not use a standard-compliant interrupt controller.

Finally we are talking. My argument in the first place was, that the existence of kernel changes does not prove anything with respect to required kernel changes in Windows, because Asahi Linux is not using UEFI and ACPI, which apparently abstracts the HW from the kernel.
Now for some parts of the HW, UEFI and ACPI does not provide a driver but just description tables, which assume a certain HW model. If there is a mismatch with the HW model, then of course you need a kernel change - that applies in particular to the interrupt controller.

That having said, the interrupt controller (which is also responsible for IPIs) is a gray zone in the sense, that ARMv8 does not strictly requires an Arm GIC - it does say that optionally an implementation might have a GIC. So by just looking at the Asahi sources, i can confirm that AIC is not sufficiently following the GIC specification (as assumed by ACPI) to be used without kernel change.
 

aeronatis

macrumors regular
Sep 9, 2015
198
152
New hardware always accelerates purchases. We'll just have to see over the long haul whether it's a general trend or not.

It’s not just new hardware. It’s a new hardware that works more efficiently than pretty much anything on sale. MacBook Air for example… There is no single device that has comparable build quality, performs comparably, has comparable screen/speakers and does so with a completely passively cooled setup.

We all know that the areas it performs the best are those including usage of apps with native support of Apple’s new architecture, and the reason developers have been so quick providing support is that they know Apple will complete this transition in said time and there will be no more new x86 based Macs, contrary to Windows ARM not spreading fast enough.

Rosetta 2 just makes the transition less painful and will probably be gone once the majority of apps complete transition or Apple will release a new series of Mac, completely removing Intel Macs from their line-up. Providing an x86 emulator will only makes things worse, as developers will have less reason to give providing updates for the new architecture priority.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
It’s not just new hardware. It’s a new hardware that works more efficiently than pretty much anything on sale. MacBook Air for example… There is no single device that has comparable build quality, performs comparably, has comparable screen/speakers and does so with a completely passively cooled setup.

We all know that the areas it performs the best are those including usage of apps with native support of Apple’s new architecture, and the reason developers have been so quick providing support is that they know Apple will complete this transition in said time and there will be no more new x86 based Macs, contrary to Windows ARM not spreading fast enough.

Rosetta 2 just makes the transition less painful and will probably be gone once the majority of apps complete transition or Apple will release a new series of Mac, completely removing Intel Macs from their line-up. Providing an x86 emulator will only makes things worse, as developers will have less reason to give providing updates for the new architecture priority.
Most people don't think about efficiency except for maybe a car and home A/C, and then they buy their big SUV anyway and their huge house with an electric furnace and A/C.

*I* don't think about efficiency in a PC. I couldn't possibly care less. PC's take so little electricity in a year than other sources. I think about how fast the work will get done and how easy it is to do.
 
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