Instead of Rosetta 2, why Apple doesn't make a Windows x86 emulator?

[aeronatis]

Most people don't think about efficiency except for maybe a car and home A/C, and then they buy their big SUV anyway and their huge house with an electric furnace and A/C.

*I* don't think about efficiency in a PC. I couldn't possibly care less. PC's take so little electricity in a year than other sources. I think about how fast the work will get done and how easy it is to do.

Efficiency is not only a matter of power consumption alone. It also means cool and quiet operation while having good performance as a result of that comparably less power consumption and I’m pretty sure those are the kind of things anyone would appreciate. If you say you don’t care, that would be up to you of course; however, that just doesn’t make it everyone’s opinion when it comes to why these devices are popular now.

 

[bobcomer]

I’m pretty sure those are the kind of things anyone would appreciate.

Not me, and even less than power efficiency. I don't mind noise if there's a reason for it, and cool, as long as it stays in a functional range, that's all I need. (within reason, which all PC's are)

You know what my loudest machine at idle is, even though it's sitting next to 3 Windows machines, including an i9 desktop? My M1 Studio Max. And that I don't understand. It should spin down the fans at idle as there isn't a reason not to. But I'm also keeping my Studio, so it doesn't bother me enough to send it back.

If you say you don’t care, that would be up to you of course; however, that just doesn’t make it everyone’s opinion when it comes to why these devices are popular now.

Nor does what you say make it everyone's opinion.

 

[Tagbert]

The real quest why hasn't developers are still output Intel only software looks like Noobs now! They can't bother to recompile them Universal! The bas Mac mini could be used to recompile your application is less then a day!

The majority of Mac software has already been ported to Apple Silicon. There are still some holdouts, but the bulk of the apps are already recompiled. Most of the rest are working fine on Rosetta until the foot draggers get with the program.

 

[satcomer]

The majority of Mac software has already been ported to Apple Silicon. There are still some holdouts, but the bulk of the apps are already recompiled. Most of the rest are working fine on Rosetta until the foot draggers get with the program.

Rosetta has less then year left on it so developers need the get into gear! I want to say to shareware developers only showed Intel only shareware anymore that isn't at least Universal then stop being Mac developer!

 

[aeronatis]

Not me, and even less than power efficiency. I don't mind noise if there's a reason for it, and cool, as long as it stays in a functional range, that's all I need. (within reason, which all PC's are)

You know what my loudest machine at idle is, even though it's sitting next to 3 Windows machines, including an i9 desktop? My M1 Studio Max. And that I don't understand. It should spin down the fans at idle as there isn't a reason not to. But I'm also keeping my Studio, so it doesn't bother me enough to send it back.

Nor does what you say make it everyone's opinion.

This is no different than just saying "I don't care about ......." and then stepping aside without contributing to the discussion. If you say you don't care about noise level while doing a resource intensive work that you should focus, simply because "there is a reason for it", that doesn't make your argument believable. Because I know for a fact that people pretty much appreciate quiet workspace, not to mention getting no performance drop when unplugged, but obviously that is anyone but you 👍🏼

My MacBook Pro is near zero level quiet during my video editing work while four of my PCs spins fans at quite audible levels simply when they are idle at desktop, and this is the case for anyone I know with similar setups. Even devices quiet far away from my desk are more audible at idle than my Mac is at load. This makes me use only my Mac except for times I need games or CUDA/OptiX utilizing apps.

 

[Digitalguy]

This is no different than just saying "I don't care about ......." and then stepping aside without contributing to the discussion. If you say you don't care about noise level while doing a resource intensive work that you should focus, simply because "there is a reason for it", that doesn't make your argument believable. Because I know for a fact that people pretty much appreciate quiet workspace, not to mention getting no performance drop when unplugged, but obviously that is anyone but you 👍🏼

My MacBook Pro is near zero level quiet during my video editing work while four of my PCs spins fans at quite audible levels simply when they are idle at desktop, and this is the case for anyone I know with similar setups. Even devices quiet far away from my desk are more audible at idle than my Mac is at load. This makes me use only my Mac except for times I need games or CUDA/OptiX utilizing apps.

I think it's safe to say that most people prefer a quiet device to a noisy one. Some will care more, to the point where they base their purchase decision on that, and for other it will influence their decision to some extent but it will not be a deal breaker. I guess only a minority will not care at all if their computer is noisy.

 

[Rookbird¥]

Is this a serious question? Why would Apple care about you running Windows software on a Mac? Including a Windows emulator would directly undermine everything Apple stands for.

Because if they made a windows emulator that would entice people to move to the Mac who have programs they like to use that are only available for windows

 

[ADGrant]

Think Crossover as Windows apps on macOS (for users) and Docker as Linux apps for servers on macOS (for devs).

Docker containers actually run on Linux (though there is a Windows variant too). Docker for Mac uses a hypervisor to run a Linux VM in the background. Docker for Windows can do this too or use WSL2 for linux containers.

Docker is only used on Mac for development, production deployments are always on Linux (or all ways on Windows for the Windows variant ). If you are building ARM64 container images for deployment on AWS Graviton VMs, an Apple Silicon Mac is ideal. If you are building x64 container images, which is still the most common deployment target for Docker, an Intel Mac is more suitable.

 

[bobcomer]

This is no different than just saying "I don't care about ......." and then stepping aside without contributing to the discussion. If you say you don't care about noise level while doing a resource intensive work that you should focus, simply because "there is a reason for it", that doesn't make your argument believable. Because I know for a fact that people pretty much appreciate quiet workspace, not to mention getting no performance drop when unplugged, but obviously that is anyone but you 👍🏼

All I can talk about is my opinion and experiences, and I've been around noisy computers and A/C for a very long time, it really doesn't bother me. Whether you believe it or not is your problem.

You ever hear a 1403N1 IBM printer? (high speed impact line printer, 1100 lines a minute.) That was part of my second job. It was also in a large room with a mainframe computer. That wasn't the most computer based noise I've ever heard either. I'm old with LOTS of experience with computers, sitting at a desk with one PC and a monitor beside me is QUIET.

 

[bobcomer]

I guess only a minority will not care at all if their computer is noisy.

There other than Apple laptops that are just as quiet. A lot quieter than my Studio.

 

[StudioMacs]

Windows emulation doesn’t need to be “instead of Rosetta.”

in fact, that’s a simple question to answer. If it’s either Rosetta or Windows emulation, Apple is going to support legacy Mac applications rather than Windows applications, since that is what their customers use, and how Apple successfully transitioned from PowerPC to Intel architecture.

 

[Tagbert]

There other than Apple laptops that are just as quiet. A lot quieter than my Studio.

Are there a lot of desktop computers that are quieter than your Studio?

 

[bobcomer]

Are there a lot of desktop computers that are quieter than your Studio?

At idle, yes. Not at load. There are plenty of laptops that are, even at load.

I can hear my Studio from 2 feet away, and I don't have good hearing.

 

[Digitalguy]

There other than Apple laptops that are just as quiet. A lot quieter than my Studio.

As quiet as what? As a M1 Macbook air or Mac Mini? At what performance? And your studio experience does not match that of youtubers. I watched yesterday Mobiletechreview of the M1 Max Studio and it's quiet even under load, she can hardly hear the fan like...ever. I have experience with X86 devices since... before Windows, in 1992, and it's always a trade-off of performance, heat and noise.... High performance, silent and cool is not a thing in x86 world...
And I say this as someone who, contrary to most people here, prefers Windows to MacOS...

 

[aeronatis]

There other than Apple laptops that are just as quiet. A lot quieter than my Studio.

There is not one device that has similar footprint, similar performance and the same quietness of the Mac Studio at at the same time. There is nothing that even comes close. This is an absolute fact!

 

[Colstan]

I don't expect to gain anything, but there is an off chance that the right person will read something on the right day, and it will actually change something in the future. Who knows.

Staying quite and not complaining is the way to set things in stone.

I appreciate the response, but I'm not sure there is much for me to reply to, since I've known your position for months now. However, if you are waiting for the "right person" to hear your voice, that same person will also notice that you purchased a Mac Studio. Apple scored a sale from you, despite not doing what you wished.

As I said, I have sympathy for your plight. I'm still on an Intel Mac, and have vacillated between building a gaming PC or not, once my Mac mini ages out, so I understand being stuck on the mental hamster wheel. Repeatedly grousing about it in the "Mac and PC Games" part of the forum isn't going to personally do me much good, because Apple's position is clear. Still, I wish you luck in your quest.

 

[bobcomer]

As quiet as what?

As most Apple laptops.

As a M1 Macbook air or Mac Mini?

An Air doesn't have any fans and quieter than my Intel Mac Mini.

At what performance?

All.

I watched yesterday Mobiletechreview of the M1 Max Studio and it's quiet even under load, she can hardly hear the fan like...ever.

I wish mine was like that, but it isn't, not even close. I can hear it even with a 45 decibel background noise and I can't hear my i9 desktop at idle. There seem to be some problems with the Studio fan-wise. It's actually quite odd. Some, no noise, some lots of fan noise like mine, some with a high pitched whine that's probably coil whine.

Look in the studio forum for a couple of threads about it, it's been discussed since the first people got theirs.

High performance, silent and cool is not a thing in x86 world...

That's not true unless you are talking about i9 -- that's not the only intel chips. I never hear my lenovo laptops.

 

[ddhhddhh2]

There is a simpler way: you can buy a computer with Windows built in.

 

[Irishman]

See title. Running Windows software in Mac OS would be a welcome feature.

It’s a valid question, and for years, owners of Intel Macs have been able to run Windows 10, using an App called Bootcamp, which came pre-installed on every Intel Mac. You could play Windows-only games at native speeds on your Mac.

I did that myself, a few years back, for about a year, dual-booting back and forth between the two OS’s.

For many of us, getting Bootcamp back on Apple’s M1 (ARM architecture), to play those Windows-only games at native speeds is the dream.

So, you’re in good company! 😀

But, you already know about Bootcamp, and you already know about how emulation will never be as fast and bug-free as native, right?

 

[bobcomer]

I appreciate the response, but I'm not sure there is much for me to reply to,

There isn't anything, that's the way I do things, and you do the way you do things

However, if you are waiting for the "right person" to hear your voice, that same person will also notice that you purchased a Mac Studio. Apple scored a sale from you, despite not doing what you wished.

I also complained a lot about my M1 Air (I later traded it in on the purchase of the Studio), and I said I cancelled my order for an M1 Max and why. I've also talked about the fan noise in my studio. I didn't complain at all about my Mac Mini, but some things really do work well. <g>

Yes, I've bought Mac's, that means I'm a repeat customer, yet I'm not totally happy. If you think you can never make any difference, that's not the way I think. I'm always looking for improvement in everything.

As I said, I have sympathy for your plight. I'm still on an Intel Mac, and have vacillated between building a gaming PC or not, once my Mac mini ages out, so I understand being stuck on the mental hamster wheel. Repeatedly grousing about it in the "Mac and PC Games" part of the forum isn't going to personally do me much good, because Apple's position is clear. Still, I wish you luck in your quest.

Thanks. I'm not really looking for sympathy though. I'm just complaining in the hopes that something gets done. (slight chance, I know)

The fan noise is odd for my Studio, but it's not bad enough for me to send it back. As for Windows, I can use remote desktop from my Studio to my main Windows machine, no problem! I'm also playing with UTM and it's getting closer to useable.

The problem with the Air was just stupidity on my part. I should never have bought a passively cooled laptop, I do way too much high CPU tasks and the sucker got too warm and throttle so much it was slow. I also expected to be able to use Windows in a VM before I knew the state of WoA and its licensing issues.
.
I probably would have been happy with the MBP Max (14"), but I just couldn't like the notch. I already knew about the Windows situation and no expectation of getting that solved takes it out of the equation.

 

[Irishman]

This is so wrong in so many points… anyway you can run Windows a software with CrossOver.

Have you ever tried Bootcamp on your Mac?

 

[Irishman]

too simple to put this way. Macs were not standard PCs, just because Mac and PC shared same CPU, there were so many differences especially in recent years.

You must not have tried Bootcamp.

 

[Irishman]

I don’t think it will happen and I don’t understand why/how it could replace Rosetta.

One word - Bootcamp.

 

[Irishman]

I never said anything like that. What I said that they don’t want to support running Windows software as part of core macOS features. A third-party solution like VMs or dual booting is something entirely different.

Why is everybody acting like Bootcamp doesn’t already exist, and has never been a third party solution?

 

[Irishman]

Licensing would be the biggest thing. The Windows APIs are copyrighted, and others have gotten in a lot of trouble doing it.

We just need to wait for the Microsoft/Qualcomm exclusivity agreement to expire, so Microsoft can sell Windows for ARM, then we can just use Bootcamp, for that software that is Windows only.

My man!! Thanks for living in the real world with me! 😀