Intel HD 3000 wow...

[Cheffy Dave]

It's a big deal. This needs to be taken so seriously that you have to question whether or not to buy ANYTHING with this GPU in it. It's that big of a deal (so much so that it even eclipses the benefits of Sandy Bridge).

Agree JRB

 

[jackyyeow]

Agree JRB

Pretty much agreed too.

Seeing the latest MBP did well probably due to the powerful CPU, I don't dare to imagine what it'll do with a low voltage CPU. In fact, seeing how the Samsung Series 9 performed with the HD3000, we can only hope Apple performing miracle on the next MBA.

 

[stevenpa]

Now that I am allowed to talk again, I was going to apologize for calling your a liar. So I am sorry for calling you one.

However I think its clear you may not know much about what we are talking about here. Your internet connection, monitor type or cabling have nothing to do with Frame rate performance. The computer hardware does however which you mentioned. But as I have mentioned and others too, we have evidence of people using the same hardware as you getting terrible performance, so logically your hardware cannot out perform this. Also as stated previously 22fps is not smooth. I outlined what is and what is not in a previous post.

When someone who is running identical hardware to you but is running on a lower resolution than you and is getting even worse fps than you are running at a much higher reslution. It is impossible that you performance can beat theres with identical hardware and the same game.

I have nothing much more to say about this. It seems pointless to talk unless you have any knowledge of this which I dont think you do, or at least not as much as some posters here.

I do apologize for calling you a liar though. Have fun with your macbook.

It would have been nice if he could have posted video or something. I've been debating the Intel 3000 but there is almost no way it could sustain 30fps (or 22 fps as stated in later posts). I can put BF:BC2 medium settings on my Vaio FW laptop with ATI 3400 at 1920x1080 on a monitor or 1600x900 on my screen and take a screenshot with 5 other players on a broadband connection that would be amazingly clear. However, there is no way the computer handles well enough. I highly doubt the claim made that he got 30fps. Trying on a friends 13inch MBP it's more around 18-20fps on LOWER settings. From the tech level is seems he is just playing at low settings and on a simple map and then claiming to receive performance that is in some cases even better than the base MBP 15' with the low end ATI card. If so sign me up for 13inch MBP/Intel3000 for life.

 

[sporadicMotion]

You could also say who in their right mind buys a MacBook Air for anything CPU intensive like Logic Pro or Handbrake?

Gaming is actually less extreme than needing more power than the C2D have. You can do the same things with a slower CPU, they just take longer time. With a worse GPU you cannot even do the same things.

That applies to the current batch, yes. However, if things pan out the way the rumors are going; you could in your right mind use a MacBook Air for Logic or Handbrake on the next revisions... a base model '11 MBP can handle Logic with ease. Even a low power i5/7 would make a great portable recording rig (minus the firewire thing). Once again, this type of machine is not designed for gaming. If marketing hype can convince someone of otherwise then super... but the reality of the hardware that has been chosen for the Air throughout it's history has made that pretty clear.

 

[tbobmccoy]

That applies to the current batch, yes. However, if things pan out the way the rumors are going; you could in your right mind use a MacBook Air for Logic or Handbrake on the next revisions... a base model '11 MBP can handle Logic with ease. Even a low power i5/7 would make a great portable recording rig (minus the firewire thing). Once again, this type of machine is not designed for gaming. If marketing hype can convince someone of otherwise then super... but the reality of the hardware that has been chosen for the Air throughout it's history has made that pretty clear.

MBAs have never been marketed as gaming machines, and the hardware pretty much tells the story. It's an ultraportable that with the hd3000, will handle office tasks much better with more battery life. The new MBAs will be an advance forward, just not on the gamer's graphics line. One day when Ivy Bridge is out, that might be different, but we all know how this is going. Let's just accept it and move on, maybe?

 

[mutsaers-vr.nl]

Everybody is always talking about fps for gaming. Are these other fps than the fps for video. I understood that the MBA can handle HD video 720/50p easily and even 1080/25p (although the screen resolution can not handle it).

MBAs have never been marketed as gaming machines, and the hardware pretty much tells the story. It's an ultraportable that with the hd3000, will handle office tasks much better with more battery life. The new MBAs will be an advance forward, just not on the gamer's graphics line. One day when Ivy Bridge is out, that might be different, but we all know how this is going. Let's just accept it and move on, maybe?

 

[sporadicMotion]

MBAs have never been marketed as gaming machines, and the hardware pretty much tells the story. It's an ultraportable that with the hd3000, will handle office tasks much better with more battery life. The new MBAs will be an advance forward, just not on the gamer's graphics line. One day when Ivy Bridge is out, that might be different, but we all know how this is going. Let's just accept it and move on, maybe?

Well said.

 

[rittchard]

Everybody is always talking about fps for gaming. Are these other fps than the fps for video. I understood that the MBA can handle HD video 720/50p easily and even 1080/25p (although the screen resolution can not handle it).

Most of the discussion has been focused on framerates for GAMING. But most of the numbers being thrown around that I've seen are for very specific cases. I'd take everything with a grain of salt.

Speaking as an avid gamer, I think a lot of this negativity is overblown. Would I love a dedicated graphics chip with all the horsepower to run the latest and greatest at max settings? Sure. Is it realistic (at the moment) to get that on an ultraportable while still maintaining heat and battery life? Not a chance.

Regardless, I get the sense that people are trying to make it seem like the HD 3000 will be simply unable to game, and I have to say that is clearly blowing the issue out of proportion. I was able to game just fine on the *original* MBA release with its horrible GMA500 (or whatever it was). Of course my definition of gaming may be much broader than what people are getting fixated on. I tried everything from the most casual games to one of the most taxing at the time (Hellgate London) with mostly successful results. Between casual games, old classics, and lower/scaled requirements on many new releases, there is a TON of gaming available out there for a machine with this level of graphics power.

Anyway, I would check out the testing at notebookcheck just to give yourself a frame of reference (one particularly notable test that stood out to me was Dirt 3, a 2011 release, at 30fps in med settings). Some games you might have to lower the detail or accept lower frame rates, but they are still playable. If you love classic games, check out Steam or gog.com and there will be tons of choices.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-3000.37948.0.html

 

[fyrefly]

It's a big deal. This needs to be taken so seriously that you have to question whether or not to buy ANYTHING with this GPU in it. It's that big of a deal (so much so that it even eclipses the benefits of Sandy Bridge).

Agree JRB

Pretty much agreed too.

Seeing the latest MBP did well probably due to the powerful CPU, I don't dare to imagine what it'll do with a low voltage CPU. In fact, seeing how the Samsung Series 9 performed with the HD3000, we can only hope Apple performing miracle on the next MBA.

Please do know that you're all talking about gaming benchmarks alone, right? There's nothing (aside from 3D Gaming) that the average user of MS Word, Safari, iTunes, etc... will feel differently in the 2011 MBA than the 2010 MBA. (maybe not even the CPU! )

But while the GPU has 1/2 the 3DMark06 score, when you compare the 1.4Ghz i5-2537 to the SU9400 at 1.4Ghz the PCMarkVantage shows a huge difference.

i5-2537 = 7582 PCMarkVantage

SU9400 = 2388 PCMarkVantage

Sandy Bridge has always been about tradeoffs. The only time we'll know for sure how bad those trade-offs are, is when Apple releases the new MBAs (hopefully soon! )

 

[jackyyeow]

Please do know that you're all talking about gaming benchmarks alone, right? There's nothing (aside from 3D Gaming) that the average user of MS Word, Safari, iTunes, etc... will feel differently in the 2011 MBA than the 2010 MBA. (maybe not even the CPU! )

Yup, it's about games.

I see when people hear comments about HD3000 they'll mostly defend it with more power CPU. On the other hand, is the C2D not enough for regular tasks?

That already been said earlier by other member, when you have slower CPU, you can still do anything, just need to wait longer (perhaps MUCH longer but still get the job done). With GPU, you can't do anything but to accept (maybe slightly more) jerky game play.

I'm sure there are people who're still happily using older laptops that're not even comparable with the 11" MBA in speed.

 

[Bonsai1214]

only thing i care about is if it can run guild wars 2 when it comes out. but the devs specifically make the game so it can run on any machine 3 years old... heck, i'm still on a gma950..

 

[jdechko]

Yup, it's about games.

I see when people hear comments about HD3000 they'll mostly defend it with more power CPU. On the other hand, is the C2D not enough for regular tasks?

I don't think it's about the capabilities of the C2D. Intel just isn't making the chips anymore so sticking with the C2D isn't even an option.

 

[Duke15]

I don't think it's about the capabilities of the C2D. Intel just isn't making the chips anymore so sticking with the C2D isn't even an option.

I think its that ix is newer, and people always want wats new, so when people are in the store looking at it they will see that it has the latest(not necesarrily greatest) and be more apt to buy it. If someone walked in to say best buy and saw a miscrosoft laptop for 500$ and an ix chip beside a mba with c2d, im assuming theyd be inclined to buying the MS. With the MBA having the ix chip paying the apple tax seems a little more reasonable...most people look at the cpu not the GPU when buying a computer, just the way the general population is, and i think apple knows that.

 

[Davidkoh]

That applies to the current batch, yes. However, if things pan out the way the rumors are going; you could in your right mind use a MacBook Air for Logic or Handbrake on the next revisions... a base model '11 MBP can handle Logic with ease. Even a low power i5/7 would make a great portable recording rig (minus the firewire thing). Once again, this type of machine is not designed for gaming. If marketing hype can convince someone of otherwise then super... but the reality of the hardware that has been chosen for the Air throughout it's history has made that pretty clear.

This type of machine isn't designed to be a workstation either. The current Air is a good mix of CPU and GPU.

Thing is that Apple have no real choice in this matter, they just have to accept the sucky GPU. But people defending it is just dumb. Tecnological advancements would make it possible for us to have a better CPU and GPU in the next Air. But due to Intels crap they are slowing down Tecnological advancement globally, why would anyone defend this?

 

[2IS]

With GPU, you can't do anything but to accept (maybe slightly more) jerky game play.

I'm sure there are people who're still happily using older laptops that're not even comparable with the 11" MBA in speed.

Or just lower graphics settings. Which I also said in response to the person who posted that, though he didn't seem to understand the relation between lowering graphics and the GPU.

Also, if you happen to be CPU limited in a game which isn't hard to do on a C2D, there are zero or close to zero settings you can change that reduce CPU load.

So this myth that you can still do everything with a slower CPU but not a slower GPU is far from absolute and can be the complete opposite in fact.

 

[Davidkoh]

Or just lower graphics settings. Which I also said in response to the person who posted that, though he didn't seem to understand the relation between lowering graphics and the GPU.

Also, if you happen to be CPU limited in a game which isn't hard to do on a C2D, there are zero or close to zero settings you can change that reduce CPU load.

So this myth that you can still do everything with a slower CPU but not a slower GPU is far from absolute and can be the complete opposite in fact.

So you do not understand that not everything can be run even with lowest settings?

No, you just don't have a clue what you are talking about. Name one game you cannot run on a C2D CPU with the most powerfull GPU there is . Which is what CPU limited would mean.

A game can be more or less CPU intensive. And in some games the CPU can compensate for a bad GPU when using low settings. But that is some games, a good GPU can compensate for a bad CPU in most games. If I strap a HD6950 to a C2D desktop ill be able to game a lot better than using the best i7 out with the HD3000.

Just look at 2010 MBP vs 2011 MBP. Even when the difference is quite small between the GPUs the CPU cannot compensate for the loss in GPU performance. If it were like you were saying we'd see a HUGE increase in performance on low settings, which we haven't.

 

[Bye Bye Baby]

I am starting to wonder in Intel's refusal to license chipset architecture and allow 3rd party graphics solutions may not cost it heavily down the track.

At the moment Intel has the momentum with its i-line processors and AMD can't get a break.

But AMD are not growing potatoes. Just speculating that in a few years we may see some real pressure and opportunities for Apple to think AMD.

i7 processor with Intel graphics is ridiculous. I mean really ridiculous.

 

[stockscalper]

The lousy graphics in SandyBridge is exactly why I'm so happy with the current generation Air's.

 

[2IS]

So you do not understand that not everything can be run even with lowest settings?

No, you just don't have a clue what you are talking about. Name one game you cannot run on a C2D CPU with the most powerfull GPU there is . Which is what CPU limited would mean.

I'd like to see you run Bad Company 2 or even Black Ops properly on an MBA (or similar) processor. You can't.

What you fail to realize is I have multiple desktop PC's ranging from AMD dual cores, Intel dual cores, an Intel quad and an AMD tri core as well as about 80 games on Steam. I know what runs well on various configurations. You're just guessing, this is painfully obvious because if you weren't simply guessing, you'd know better and this conversation would not exist.

Lowering settings affects GPU load, CPU load remains relatively constant regardless of settings. That what I was trying to explain to you (three times now) there is certainly someone who doesn't have a clue what they're talking about between the two of us, and it isn't me friend.

 

[Davidkoh]

I'd like to see you run Bad Company 2 or even Black Ops properly on an MBA (or similar) processor. You can't.

Yeah you can. High end GPU + MBA processor would work, of course high end GPU + top of the line i7 is better, but that does not mean it won't work.

The MBA 13" ultimate runs BC 2 at native res with settings at low, and that is with a crap GPU. With a better GPU it would run it just fine.

What you fail to realize is I have multiple desktop PC's ranging from AMD dual cores, Intel dual cores, an Intel quad and an AMD tri core as well as about 80 games on Steam. I know what runs well on various configurations. You're just guessing, this is painfully obvious because if you weren't simply guessing, you'd know better and this conversation would not exist.

How does having multiple desktops change anything? Having many computers does not give your argument more validity. That's like saying having many math books would be an argument to why your solution to a math problem is correct.

Lowering settings affects GPU load, CPU load remains relatively constant regardless of settings. That what I was trying to explain to you (three times now) there is certainly someone who doesn't have a clue what they're talking about between the two of us, and it isn't me friend.

And where have I said there is a large difference in CPU load at different settings? But for the sake of it, why don't you link your source for this claim?


I don't even understand why we are having this argument? What do you rather have, a decent GPU + good CPU or bad GPU + good CPU? All I ever been saying is that it's bad that we cannot get both a better GPU and a better CPU in this refresh.

 

[jdechko]

I think its that ix is newer, and people always want wats new, so when people are in the store looking at it they will see that it has the latest(not necesarrily greatest) and be more apt to buy it. If someone walked in to say best buy and saw a miscrosoft laptop for 500$ and an ix chip beside a mba with c2d, im assuming theyd be inclined to buying the MS. With the MBA having the ix chip paying the apple tax seems a little more reasonable...most people look at the cpu not the GPU when buying a computer, just the way the general population is, and i think apple knows that.

It's not just that the i-Series is newer. Intel is forcing manufacturers to move to the i-Series by not producing the C2D anymore. My point wasn't about consumers wanting the new stuff, but that Apple can't use the old stuff because it is no longer being made.

To sum up my argument, it's not a debate on whether to stick to the C2D/320m or move to the i7/HD3000. The C2D/320m is dead and gone (from a manufacturing standpoint. the 2.13 and 1.6 are 2.5 years old and the 1.86 and 1.4 are 3 years old). The only possible path forward is i7/HD3000 or AMD/ATI, which is highly unlikely. There are NO other real options. (A5/PowerVR would be even more of a backwards step).

 

[2IS]

Yeah you can. High end GPU + MBA processor would work, of course high end GPU + top of the line i7 is better, but that does not mean it won't work.

The MBA 13" ultimate runs BC 2 at native res with settings at low, and that is with a crap GPU. With a better GPU it would run it just fine.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Try it then talk. I have and know it runs like absolute ****, that's how my argument has more validity than yours. I actually know how it runs on slow CPUs and high end gpus and you're guessing.

 

[FX4568]

Most games nowadays only require a Core2duo processor, but for the graphic cards, it is better to have a good one.
I think theres a point to the people who will want SB processors. Even if we want C2D, they are running out, and at the pace that Apple sells MBAs, it will soon be depleted.

Something that SB processor people must accept is that HD3000 is a step backwards, no matter what you think, it is proven that it is a step backwards. Nvidia 320m and the C2D is an awesome combo that wont be beaten by Intel standards until mid 2012 or even early 2013.

We shouldnt be arguing with what will happen. (SB ix and HD), but think about Intel's dirty business practices to try to catch up to a 4 year old GPU. Intel should stick with Processors, and let AMD and Nvidia play it out for GPUs.

320M has many advantages, that the HD wont be able to make it up. Also, even if theres a processor boost, the heat accumulated in one place will feel hotter than the current higher voltage system of the nvidia C2D combo.

My personal opinion: Pass this MBA, and either buy the 2010 or go for the next year.

 

[sporadicMotion]

This type of machine isn't designed to be a workstation either. The current Air is a good mix of CPU and GPU.

No, it's designed to be an ultraportable. However, the i7 will make it function well as an ultraportable workstation. The current air is a mix of underpowered CPU and a decent (at best) GPU.

Thing is that Apple have no real choice in this matter, they just have to accept the sucky GPU.

Agreed

But people defending it is just dumb.

Not really... this is just because different computer users use them differently and have a vastly different perspective. So the value and validity of the hardware changes. This is where the confusion sets in... why the hell would a gamer buy a MacBook Air other than to tell his/her gaming friends he/she has a "fashionable" laptop.

Tecnological advancements would make it possible for us to have a better CPU and GPU in the next Air. But due to Intels crap they are slowing down Tecnological advancement globally, why would anyone defend this?

Welcome to business.

BTW to all... there is no such thing as a MacBook Air Ultimate... if Apple wanted to use MS terminology on their computer, they would have. There is NOTHING "ultimate" about a 2.anything Core2Duo.

 

[scupking]

I play BioShock on my 2010 MBP with all settings maxed with no issues at all. I would never get something with Intel graphics but thats just my opinion.