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Intel HD 3000 wow...
- Thread starter hcho3
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No it's not a ultraportable workstation. It's gonna be an ultraportable, workstations are still light years ahead.
So you're saying you enjoy the GPU being worse than it could have been? Would you be sad if you got a better GPU with the Sandy bridge processors?
I'm only one person but that is exactly what I am going to do - pass for now. My 2010 MBP is only 18 months old so, hopefully, a little after the two year mark I can begin looking for the next MBA version when Apple will have conceded that the MBA should have a better GPU solution.
I do believe though that Apple will have absolutely no problem selling however many new MBAs that they can manufacture. People who share my opinion just are not numerous enough to make a difference.
Don't need to look at YouTube, I have the hardware and the game to see for myself. YouTube doesn't show the massive input lag that happens when you've got an underpowered CPU in these games. Not to mention, I'm talking about multi-player which is far more CPU intensive than SP.
If you insist that you know what you're talking about based on YouTube video's that's your prerogative. I can say with absolute certainty you're speaking form ignorance not knowledge when it comes to this topic.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to tweet Tom Brady some tips because I watch football on TV.
Many positive reports against your negative.
And no, you did not talk about multi-player. You said
"I'd like to see you run Bad Company 2 or even Black Ops properly on an MBA (or similar) processor. You can't."
Nowhere in that statement did you limit it to MP.
Prove it then, you cannot say "I tested it, it doesn't work" and think that proves your point. That's a personal experience, which is one of the lowest form of evidence. I've linked to other peoples findings which on an evidence-scale outweights your own personal experience.
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I didn't say that. I said it could function as one with an i7 though. Have you actually used a SB equiped Mac? My i5 13" can do Logic very well... an application that has in the past only run large projects well on large computers. Now that can be done with a lowly base MacBook Pro. The new i series CPU's are quite capable of workstation type tasks. No, not on the scale of a true workstation... but the concept is no longer laughable.
You obviously are not processing what I have to say properly. I'm saying it doesn't matter that the GPU is a bit slower. It's not a gaming machine. Want a portable entertainment device? Buy something designed for portable entertainment or is capable as functioning as such. If someone wants to complain about this being unusable as their home gaming PC/system, go cry in corner. You just wasted $1000 - $1700.
It just doesn't matter. The IG works very well for portable productivity and media viewing which is what it was intended for.
if you're buying a macbook air to play games... go end yourself right now.
The point of it is portability... not a gaming machine. I didn't buy an Ipad 2 for word processing... i didn't buy an iphone for web browsing...
i don't understand peoples logic... 98 percent of Macbook air users are just common web browsing/word/downloading.. if you're the 2 percent that expects a gtx 460 in a mac book air.. you're an idiot.
The point of it is portability... not a gaming machine. I didn't buy an Ipad 2 for word processing... i didn't buy an iphone for web browsing...
i don't understand peoples logic... 98 percent of Macbook air users are just common web browsing/word/downloading.. if you're the 2 percent that expects a gtx 460 in a mac book air.. you're an idiot.
Show me where I said "I tested it, it doesn't work" I said it runs like ****.
MP is part of the game, my point stands. Feel free to needle pin the argumetn all you want, it won't change the fact that the game runs like ass. Like I said, go with your ignorance if you wish. I have hardware that run these games perfectly and I have hardware that doesn't. You're like a professional swimmer that's never been in a pool.
If you want to claim vicotry beucase you can technically run it with FPS in the teens and single digits, more power to you. I'm making a practical argument in regards to performance and playability, not a retarded one which is what you're doing.
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External Thunderbolt GFX in Cinema Display
Now that Apple has introduced a proper fast external port, it could be put to excellent use with an external graphics card, perhaps built in to the Cinema Display(preferably as a detachable/upgradeable module). Imagine having your portable Air for surfing etc, and then when you hook it up to your new Cinema Display you not only get a big display, you also get a discrete graphics card attached so you can play all the games you want..
Well, one can dream at least..
Now that Apple has introduced a proper fast external port, it could be put to excellent use with an external graphics card, perhaps built in to the Cinema Display(preferably as a detachable/upgradeable module). Imagine having your portable Air for surfing etc, and then when you hook it up to your new Cinema Display you not only get a big display, you also get a discrete graphics card attached so you can play all the games you want..
Well, one can dream at least..
Will the underclocked HD 3000 found in the new airs be better than the ATI Radeon 3200M HD found in my current laptop?
If so, I'm on board.
If so, I'm on board.
Probably, that 3200 HD is about 3 year old at this point. I'm pretty sure the Intel 3000 is about equal to an ATI 4500 HD.
Would you consider WoW properly playable if you couldn't party up?
And rather, personal experience is NOT one of the lowest forms of evidence. Hearsay is one of the lowest forms of evidence, not first hand experience.
It's a capable GPU for productivity and anything else but gaming. I've been using one for the last few months and have zero complaints. I am a non-gamer but for some perspective, I found Portal ran well enough for me to play through and have a very enjoyable experience. It's the only game I ever tried on it.
I bought the air mainly over the refreshed MBP for gaming. 320m vs Standard voltage Intel 3000HD.
Why cant you game in a portable machine? My 2010 MBA definitely can do that, I play starcraft 2 on this thing. Giving me 30 fps in huge battles.
You didnt buy an iPad 2 for word processing? Wait, why do we have Pages on the iPad? You didn't buy an iphone for web browsing? Why are there so many apps that enhance web browsing in the iphone?
Yes, you might say MBA users are just common web browsers/word users, but what gives you the mind that looking for a SB processor is any better than the "idiots" that are expecting a gtx 460? Also, have you heard anyone in this forum wanting anything more than the 320M? I dont think so.
Before you take the arguments to the extreme side, why not try to open your mind? Why instead of calling people idiots and how they should go commit suicide, why dont you kill such ignorant mind that you proudly possess?
What a fool.
I need to calculate mathematical equations. Why would I use the calculator on my iPhone when I can just carry around a Texas instruments graphing calculator everywhere? Clearly the TI calculator is superior to the iPhone's calculator. But wait I don't want to carry around another device or even have the need for the top of the line best machine for the mathematical calculations that I need. Maybe I can sacrifice some functionality I would find in the TI calculator for the portability of just carrying the iPhone? I think I would be happy with that.
I hope you see a point.
As I said, the only thing im saying is that having both a good CPU and GPU would be better. Which would be the case if Intel didn't block out Nvidia. EVen though that is business it still is sad.
I did not say you said that. I used that as an example for you to grasp the concept.
As I said, many other people seems to get acceptable performance at native resolution.
So having hardware that runs the game perfectly and hardware that doesn't makes you know everything about it? Okay, then I must be an expert. I have a gaming PC and a 3 year old netbook, one of them runs them perfectly and one doesn't. I wonder if I should have used that for my thesis, "I own loads of books about this, therefore my findings are correct".
Anyhow, Let's just drop it. It seems we're talking past eachother. I am most likely missing your point, and you seem to be missing mine. Let's just agree on the new MBA being a really good computer. I am getting one anyway, is time to upgrade from my 2010 MBP.
If WoW had SP sure.
"one of the lowest" means one of a few. It doesn't mean the lowest form.
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I only play light games... League of Legends, AOE II, etc. so I'm not expecting anything amazing from it.
My plan is to actually buy this MacBook Air for my first year of college before I have to actually do any design work on the computer. Sell it before the next generation of Airs come out, lose some money, but then turn around and buy the updated MacBook Pros.
I've ran Team Fortress 2 on my 11" 1.6 c2d mba, it runs just fine for me. But, I've caught myself playing small games that I downloaded from the app store instead because they are pretty addicting. Galcon Fusion off of app store is a lot of fun and probably most played on this mba. Putting that out there for all you that might be looking for a good time waster
Thats a very misleading comparison if you are trying to compare CPU speed. Pcmarkvantage depends heavily on storage speed, the Acer travelmate is hamstrung by an extremely slow hard drive. The macbook air 11 inch actually scores 4553
http://www.laptopmag.com/review/laptops/apple-macbook-pro-air-11-inch-2010.aspx?mode=benchmarks
It means I have a concept of what can and cannot run the game well. Moreover, I have the exact hardware and the exact game we're actually discussing. How could I possibly NOT know how well it runs?
You have a gaming PC and a netbook. I totally agree that your gaming PC will run the games and your netbook cannot. OK? Now that we got that completely useless comparison out of the way...
We are talking about several things
MBA (which I have)
Benefits of more powerful GPU (Which I have)
Benefits of more powerful CPU (Which I have)
Bad Company 2/Black Ops (which I have and have ran on all the above configurations)
I have the means at my disposal to determine exactly how well the game runs on various hardware configurations (and I'll repeat myself) including the hardware configurations you and I are debating here, and you have youtube... Right, I guess in your world that makes you an authority on the subject.
Nevertheless, I took your suggestion and did a youtube search and I found a clip where it looks like sub 30fps while never having more than 3 people on the screen at any given time. BC2 is capable of 32 players. If you're barely maintaining a tolerable frame rate with 3 players on the screen, what do you think is going to happen when up to 31 other players are on the screen and buildings are collapsing? It's going to be a slide show, and guess what? It'll be because of the CPU.
I had to log in just to address this.
I can't decide if you're trolling or being completely serious; No offense, but I don't think you know very much about computers. What Davidkoh is trying to say is that in today's age, the CPU is not as much a hindrance as the GPU. I don't think anyone here is hoping to be able to play Crysis 2 on a MBA. I understand that it is a productivity machine first and foremost, and the HD 3000 is more than capable of handling anything the "general" computer user throws at it.
That being said, I think the frustration of many here comes from the annoyance that we are upgrading 1 major component and downgrading another. Some people argue that the general user won't take a hit from the reduced GPU, but do you honestly believe they will notice a speed increase with a SB processor as opposed to a C2D? Take into account, the MBA comes standard with an SSD, which is known to be the primary bottleneck in everyday tasks in association with speed. A C2D with a good SSD will do just about everything the same as a SB with a good SSD, aside from the obvious hardcore coding, ripping..etc. How many average Joes are going to be doing hardcore work with FCP or video encoding as opposed to watching high def videos, playing with Photoshop, Premiere, occasional gaming..etc. Sure, the HD 3000 may be able to handle all those things, but no one with any basic understanding of computers can deny that the CPU is not as important as the GPU when it comes to portable or ultraportable notebooks.
Like it was stated, even during CPU intensive tasks, all you have to do is wait a few more seconds to complete the task. With GPU intensive tasks, there's nothing you can do if the graphics card can't handle the task at hand, and lowering the settings won't give you the same quality in the end, as waiting for a slower CPU to complete its task would.
I can accept that Apple's hands are tied on this, as the HD 3000 and the SB processor go hand in hand, and yes, the MBA will still meet the needs of most people in the market for an ultraportable; it still does not necessarily make it an upgrade in my eyes, 1 negative and 1 positive do not make a positive, and in the year 2011, we shouldn't have to take 3 steps forward and 2 steps back.
Hoping IvyBridge moves forward without looking back.
Ivy Bridge is not going to be much better
Now, from what I've read, Ivy Bridge is expected to be a max of 20% in GPU performance. So instead of 22 FPS, you'll get 26 FPS. It's really not going to be that much better. And with this in mind, I've decided to go ahead once SB Airs come out. I can't kid myself in thinking waiting for Ivy is going to be worth it. For gaming, put together a $400 machine to play way better. If my startup works out, maybe I'll be able to get an updated iMac when I can afford. In mean time, sell iMac and buy Air. I'm really starting to need portability.
Now, from what I've read, Ivy Bridge is expected to be a max of 20% in GPU performance. So instead of 22 FPS, you'll get 26 FPS. It's really not going to be that much better. And with this in mind, I've decided to go ahead once SB Airs come out. I can't kid myself in thinking waiting for Ivy is going to be worth it. For gaming, put together a $400 machine to play way better. If my startup works out, maybe I'll be able to get an updated iMac when I can afford. In mean time, sell iMac and buy Air. I'm really starting to need portability.
As people have said before, GPU hindrance is a bigger "obstacle" than the CPU nowadays.
Consider you that the current MBA combo of C2D and 320m has a score of 60/40 (60 for CPU and 40 for GPU). Now, lets say that the score of 60 in the CPU is capable of doing everything we can, and the 40 in the GPU is enough for our needs.
Now what sandy bridge does is offset the balance.
The 60 in the CPU score becomes a 80 and the 40 in the GPU score becomes a 20. Although both scores only got affected by 20 points, the difference between a 40 GPU and 20 GPU is the difference between playable and unplayable.
On the other hand, a score in the CPU of 60 and 80 are only marginal increases due to the fact that we can already do such tasks at a lower score.
Now considering that people might need more powerful CPUs, it is understandable that they might want an upgrade.
But mind you the lack of CPU power can be made up by the time.
Handbrake on a Sandy Bridge might take 20 minutes to encode a video, while on the core2duo it might take 60 minutes.
The difference is 40 minutes, a matter of time, but in the GPU case, the difference between the 320M and the 3000HD cannot be made by time.
Just because you let your 3000HD get used to the game settings does not mean it will run better over a certain period of time. Engineers always try to find the point where is perfect to sacrifice enough, but still gaining enough. That means, they will find a price point where it can suffice the needs of the general population. Whether you fit in the general population is another question.
My biggest concern is the fact that GPU cannot use time as a make up for the lack of power, while the CPU can. For those who say that the 3000HD does not suck, it might not for your needs, but I believe that the GPU trade off for CPU power will be a downgrade to most amount of users. People play more games than they encode. People play more games than they use w/e task that requires a SB processor.
Also, as I have mentioned before, why are we so hypocritical about GPU users? People keep saying that one should not use the MBA as a gaming machine, which is capable of, but instead they want a faster, stronger, better processor. Couldn't I ask the same thing? Why would you need such a good CPU?
Apple, by upgrading to the sandy bridge processors knows that is downgrading to a certain extent, but in order to keep the stock holders happy and keep the revenue up, they must take a step. whether is a step forward or backward, the general population will see a stronger CPU as a step forward, thus buying more MBAs. I hope that the macrumors community knows better than that.
Furthermore, we do know that at some point we must use the Sandy Bridge processors since the C2Ds are running out. Do we like it? Definitely not. But we must know that intel is playing dirty business tricks, and is trying to catch up to the Nvidia 320m which is a few years old driver. We should complain about Intel creating bottlenecks for the advancement of technology and not argue whether Intel 3000HD sucks or not. It does suck, but dont get me wrong, we should blame Intel than each other.
I hope I made a clear point. Thank you.
Consider you that the current MBA combo of C2D and 320m has a score of 60/40 (60 for CPU and 40 for GPU). Now, lets say that the score of 60 in the CPU is capable of doing everything we can, and the 40 in the GPU is enough for our needs.
Now what sandy bridge does is offset the balance.
The 60 in the CPU score becomes a 80 and the 40 in the GPU score becomes a 20. Although both scores only got affected by 20 points, the difference between a 40 GPU and 20 GPU is the difference between playable and unplayable.
On the other hand, a score in the CPU of 60 and 80 are only marginal increases due to the fact that we can already do such tasks at a lower score.
Now considering that people might need more powerful CPUs, it is understandable that they might want an upgrade.
But mind you the lack of CPU power can be made up by the time.
Handbrake on a Sandy Bridge might take 20 minutes to encode a video, while on the core2duo it might take 60 minutes.
The difference is 40 minutes, a matter of time, but in the GPU case, the difference between the 320M and the 3000HD cannot be made by time.
Just because you let your 3000HD get used to the game settings does not mean it will run better over a certain period of time. Engineers always try to find the point where is perfect to sacrifice enough, but still gaining enough. That means, they will find a price point where it can suffice the needs of the general population. Whether you fit in the general population is another question.
My biggest concern is the fact that GPU cannot use time as a make up for the lack of power, while the CPU can. For those who say that the 3000HD does not suck, it might not for your needs, but I believe that the GPU trade off for CPU power will be a downgrade to most amount of users. People play more games than they encode. People play more games than they use w/e task that requires a SB processor.
Also, as I have mentioned before, why are we so hypocritical about GPU users? People keep saying that one should not use the MBA as a gaming machine, which is capable of, but instead they want a faster, stronger, better processor. Couldn't I ask the same thing? Why would you need such a good CPU?
Apple, by upgrading to the sandy bridge processors knows that is downgrading to a certain extent, but in order to keep the stock holders happy and keep the revenue up, they must take a step. whether is a step forward or backward, the general population will see a stronger CPU as a step forward, thus buying more MBAs. I hope that the macrumors community knows better than that.
Furthermore, we do know that at some point we must use the Sandy Bridge processors since the C2Ds are running out. Do we like it? Definitely not. But we must know that intel is playing dirty business tricks, and is trying to catch up to the Nvidia 320m which is a few years old driver. We should complain about Intel creating bottlenecks for the advancement of technology and not argue whether Intel 3000HD sucks or not. It does suck, but dont get me wrong, we should blame Intel than each other.
I hope I made a clear point. Thank you.